[TOM RENZO]

Ok here is a question that always gets hashed out in the shop from time to time. Does a high output ignition system produce more HP over a properly working stock system. What i mean is like high output coils compaired to a stock one. I have done testing on this subject and would like some feedback. What do you guys think??? Does a high performance ignition system make more HP over a properly miss free stock system. All answers are welcome and there is no such thing as a dumb question or answer. Just trying to wake up the site. Peace TOM

[ITLRUN]

No, the only difference is at high RPM's. After a certain RPM the stock system will start to fizzle out and miss, where as a good high performance ignition system will hold out at high RPM's in excess of 8,000 RPM. Also a stock system would not handle that RPM for long, if at all. I personally have two motors that will rev in excess of 9,000 RPM's with no problem. But that's running an MSD Digital Box, not a stock electronic ignition. To me that's the only difference is how high the motor will rev before giving out with a stock ignition. No gains in HP, if any they would have to be minimal, Mike. SCT Tuner.

[b_chandler]

I can agree with the above statement. While my numbers were lower, I saw the same improvements. Had a stock single points setup on a mild 302 in a '71 Torino. 4000-4500 RPM it would spit and sputter. New parts, gap and dwell adjustments only moved the RPM range up slightly and temporarily. Converted the same distributor with one of those Mallory UniLite kits and with all else the same, that motor would sing all the way to valve float Ooops.

Tom, I think we'd both agree that there's a difference between a horsepower increase and a performance increase. I think that high energy ignition systems and components offer a performance increase that can be parlayed(sp) into an increase in HP. It's one of those deals that you can't just slap on and expect the numbers to go up. What you've done is given yourself a platform to expand on. Now you can bump up the timing or the boost or compression etc. That's when the payoff shows up on dyno sheets or timeslips.

[SM90Stanger]

What about the difference between stock (cheapo) spark plugs and high end ones like E3 diamond fire? Those spark plugs actually do burn the fuel more completely and do lead to a few more ponies and better gas mileage... I saw the tests on Horspower. I watch that show every weekend morning like a child and his cartoons!

Steve

[TOM RENZO]

This subject comes up all the time in the shop. The point system is a given they float and their done. I used to do a lot of cosworth vegas and found that they would rev past 7000 RPM with the stock HEI. A quick run on the dyne with a cylinder scope showed spark energy well in the 35K area. No one used aftermarket ignition it was not allowed. So it got me thinking how good is the stock electronic setups??? They are very good and work excellent. Now how much HP gain will there BE. NONE as long as the system can deliver spark energy without rpm soak there was no difference. Most systems we messed with raan well into the 7k rpm band. Remember thats only 3500RPM at the dizzy. So i always kind of laugh at the HP increases i read with aftermarket stuff. Now turbo cars are a little different. They require more spark According to most posts i read. Guys reduce the plug gaps to 25 thousands and lower. I have found that it does not matter. I ran plug tests from 18 thousands all the way up to 40 thousands and then had a fall off. Most turbo cars like 30-35 thousands because of spark blow out. Now on the plug side we found that it really does not make much difference if its platnium double platinun or copper. That only came into play after the plugs started to wear out. (electrodes got rounded off) Platinum plugs dont round off and have a sharp point center electrode and deliver constantly higher RPM before the spark runs out. So the stock systems (electronic ones) seem do do a good job. I also found some aftermarket coils take to much primary energy and the voltage falls off at mid range. Intresting findings at best. So i say put your money else where if you spin under 7 GRAND. (I use the msd in my turbo cars and they are awsum ) The turbo Please reply. Peace Tom

[Turbosnake]

[quote=b_chandler;1783764]I can agree with the above statement. While my numbers were lower, I saw the same improvements. Had a stock single points setup on a mild 302 in a '71 Torino. 4000-4500 RPM it would spit and sputter. New parts, gap and dwell adjustments only moved the RPM range up slightly and temporarily. Converted the same distributor with one of those Mallory UniLite kits and with all else the same, that motor would sing all the way to valve float Ooops.

your problem was the fact that you were using points, a magnetic pickup works much better. that is why it runs better a higher rpm. the points were floatin like valves do whenyou rev one up to high.

[b_chandler]

Interesting reading.

The GM HEI is a bit of a different animal compared to conventional setups where the coil is separate from the distributor, but I get the gist of the message.

Time to play devil's advocate for the sake of discussion

What about coil saturation after sustained high RPM operation? A day on the dyno is one thing, but a day on the track is another. Can an Delco or Motorcraft coil hang with it's performance counterparts on a hot track day or a spirited road trip on an open highway?

[TOM RENZO]

Good question chandler. It seems to hold up pritty good on the track also. Those stock closed wafer coils are real good on saturation. I spoke with a coil engineer years ago about the reasoning behind the closed CORE coils. You know the square ones like on our cars and the hei system. His answer was better magnetic density (ORSTEDS).This reduces saturation by 40% over an oil filled old type coil. Great question chandler. I asked the same thing and the engineer explained that. With the new coil design they run cooler and more efficient without OIL FILLED cases around the windings. Heavy stuff and great answers from all of you guys. I am still studying this stuff and it gives me a headache. Man lots to know about a part that we just dont pay one ounce of attention to. Great discussion guys. Peace tom

[b_chandler]

Ya know something Tom, I had tunnel vision on this one. When I think coil, I think round, and oil-filled. I completely forgot about E-core coils.

One of the things I was taught when learning inductance was about core density and material.

Thanks for joggin' the ol' noggin'.

[TOM RENZO]

No worries Chandler i get brain dead on a daily basis. Keep an eye on me i just had a hell of a fight on turbo ford about ground offsets. Pin 49 goes to ground but those guys argue that it has to go to the turbo bell and it does from the factory. I moove them by jumping it to signal return at the ECM. I was told i live on another planet and my whole tune is in the tank. I run all my fords this way. I was told i gave out bad info. I do admit i dont understand why ford grounded at the turbo bell but hay there must be a reason. If you can answer . FIRE AWAY at me. Peace tom

[b_chandler]

Grab a glass of ice and a bottle of single malt and meditate. Works better than yoga.

I enjoy Turboford, not just for the tech, but for the dynamic as well. If you're not an engineer or one of the "chosen ones" anything you say can and will be disputed. Their theory is solid. They just have no real tolerance for anything else that may work just as well (if not better). "It's not the way Ford did it and their engineers were smart." This compliment given to a group of people who put a horn button on the end of a turn signal switch, and paid by the folks running intercoolers from Japanese Peterbilts, Swedish cylinder heads, and all other sorts of un-Ford-like stuff. Confuses the crap out of me.

Don't get me wrong. There's a wealth of information in the pages there, but at times it's like panning for gold. You may sift through a lot of mud before you find a nugget. There are really good people there and I enjoy reading their posts, but others feel compelled to beat people with their sheepskins every time a non-conformist post is made.

My personal experience has taught me to hear the engineer, but listen to the guy in the field. Reality beats AutoCAD, pump curve sheets, and calculators EVERY SINGLE TIME!!!