[MarkHalliday]

Ok, New to the board here, so bear with me, this is gonna be long and drawn out. Unexperienced individuals with 2.3 turbo carburated setups can easily back out now, as I would appreciate absolutly NO advice from those who ONLY have experience with 2.3 turbo EFI's. These are two totally different setups!!

Ok, Just picked up a 81 ghia 4.2l, and have a 2.3 turbo from a 1979 pacecar w/tranny (have two actually) I just finished with the ghia bodywise, and it has a really nice interior. So I'm thinkin I have a half way decent car now (pics later) So what do i do about the unholy 118 gross RWHP that the 4.2 v8 will yield? Yup, I'm thinkin about making the swap. Although I swore to myself I was done with project mustangs, I think we all know how that works out in the end. The little guy that pops up on you shoulder and says things like "You don't wanna do that" get's his ass whopped and tossed in the trunk until race day. SO let me fire away first with the setup so-far (As in already purchased/done/have)

1: 2.3 turbo block (79 pacecar) bored .040, decked .007, cleaned, finish hone, piston/wall clearance .004 (By request to match factory spec)
2: 2.3 turbo head (79 pacecar) planed , cleaned, new seals, crane comp dual spring set 90lb @ 1.650 to accomadate hot cam.
3: hydrolic Ford Motorsports cam and followers.

MOTORSPORT CAM: HYDROLIC ROLLER, M-6250-A237 LIFT (valve): INT/EX - .420 / DURATION @ 50": INT 226", EX 234" / LIFT (lobe): INT/EX - .253 / DURATION (SAE): INT 274", EX 282" / ROCKER RATIO 1.7 / LOBE CENTER: INT 105", EX 115"

4: Cam Sprocket w/degree map
5: Clevite Hi VOl oil pump
6: Forged TRW pistons 1.00MM
7: Stock turbo rods
8: Stock turbo crank, cut .030 @ rod journals
9: New stock distributor, MSD 6AL Multiple spark discharge, blaster 3 coil, MSD boost timing master (Hooked into the boost refrence port on manifold runner #1), MSD tach adapter.
10: Centerforce Dual fricton clutch & pressure plate w/throwout bearing.
11: Eibach lowering springs, gabriel struts (yuk! But I'm POOR!!)
12: Splitpipe to dual mufflers & tails 2.5" pipe, NO CAT.
13: Stock holly/webber 5200 carb with boost refrenced port @ #4 manifold runner port.

Now I had this setup before, and I don't have to tell you it was pretty impressive banging tire into three out of four gears. I mean after all, take it all away and you have a 90HP lead sled. What Is new to the setup is the springs, the extra .010 overbore (was .030 before) and the other mentioned machine work. I admit With the boost retard and timing issies, plus lack of fuel, I was detonating, and could not crank the boost up past factory settings of 6lbs max. I ran total seal moly gapless secondary land before too. So, with that vague, ugly picture in mind, he goes the questions:

1: Should I chose the moly gapless total seal primary land set this time? thier new, and I havn't heard much about them other then the reasoning that you will finally get some oil to the top ring! The factory used chrome top rings for this motor, what are the pros and cons here?

2: I have the 2bbl, to 4bbl carb adapter already milled to fitment (has to clear a few things.) But the choke towers never clear the hood. Does anyone have a suggestion on a low CFM 4bbl carb with seriously low clearance? The smallest I tried was a 600cfm holley (The chrome job =) Any ideas on jet setting? I want to run a lot of boost, and maintain drivability without detonation.

3: I need inexpensive fuel supply upgrade ideas. Will the v8 pump bolt up? It appears it will, but any experience with that? it's mechanical, and supplied for a v8. But is it good enough when I start ramming air into the sucker? (I love that part!)

4: This turbo make it almost impossible to intercool, But I have a good feeling I can purchase a water/oil cooled cartridge from turbo city that my inlets/outlets will bolt up to. That will help signifigantly. Any ideas here? The stock one is only oil fed.

5: I was considering making one intake port on my cervinis stormin normin ram air hood active, that will really force feed this thing. I was noticing that the 2.3 turbo manifolds of the future have similar outlet positioning. What I mean is, I could replace the stock ex. manifold with the SVO one, it should bolt right up to my crossoevr pipe, and I should have another open route for ANOTHER turbo! I sould be able to bolt ANOTHER turbo on this thing and ram air into the carb, the other would suck it down.. why has noone done this yet? what could I do with two turbos? My imagination will get the best of me here.. I just know it.

What would twin turbos on this setup run with a shot? Would I scare somebody?


Ok If I think of anything else, and I'm sure I will, I will add it later on. This is anough to chew on. here is the hard and final thought.

This is a daily driver, and has to remain that way. All of the parts were picked with streetability in mind, I like to get carried away, just no into other dimensions, if you know what I mean. In other words, I need some longevity out of the deal. Thank you very much in advance for any expertise offered here.

BTW, DOn't worry about timing issues, I have that covered. I was surely detonating due to lack of fuel. I already have the problem solved, just need to decide how I'm going to feed it more here.

Thanks! - Matt

[MarkHalliday]

ANY Takers???

[MarkHalliday]

I'll tell you what.. if I am the most experienced person on this site with a 2.3 turbo, were all in trouble..

ANYONE?

[XxGATORxX]

a 2.3 carb set-up....Nope.

Sorry mate the majority of us as well as the rest of the 2.3T crowd is EFI.

[74stang2togo]

I've got a 2.3 carb setup in my 1974 Mustang II, but it came form long before the turbo days...

Here's my plan for it:

Holley 350cfm 2-bbl. carb
Custom-built header
Single inlet/dual outlet glasspack exhaust with late-model Z-28 exhaust tips (Y-pipe after the glasspack muffler)
MSD Blaster coil
Bosch Platinum plugs
Autolite plug wires
14x6 American Racing wheels
New Federal-Mogul Cam (can't remember the numbers right off hand...)
chrome valve cover/air cleaner/breather cap/hood pins
Harwood Hood Scoop
Lakewood Traction Bars

I think this car will be much better than the 90 hp it came with from the factory, but.... probably still have less than a stock 302 in any Mustang II... I've thought about going turbo, not sure yet if I want to.

[Mike SVOR]

You are not allowed to use the terms, "Drivability and 4 barrel draw through carb" in the same sentence. LOL

Your whole statement was preaching drivability, but you then state that you want to remain carb'd and DRAW THROUGH at that!!?!?!

Then you ask if a V8 fuel pump will bolt on to the block? But you want a lot of HP.


I hate to say it, but Why don't you just go fuel injected?
A stock fuel injected turbo motor will put out more hp than your looking at with all those mods and a draw through!

I just don't know where to begin.

Mike SVOR

[jabobia]

hey mike its good to see you posting again

hows four banger?

-james

[Mike SVOR]

turboluv:
This is all wrote with the assumption that the 79 is a draw through design. That's what I think they are at least.
So here goes.........



Ok, so I guess I told you something you didn't want to hear.
So let me try and see it your way.

First off, Your carb is going to be too small. You might want to try looking into a holley 500 cfm 2 barrel carb for a draw through app.

Next, I'd look into a hybrid T3/T4
Maybe a 60 trim T4 compressor with the large inch inlet.

But you state that you are using boost referencing???

My question is what are you referencing? The carb? if it's a draw through, you don't need to. It acts just like it's sitting on top of an intake manifold. Vacume below it draws all the gas through it.

No you can't intercool it, but you can add neat things like a cool can full of ice for high boost runs.

Let me know if this is the direction you wana go.......

Mike SVOR

[MarkHalliday]

Ok, it's not that you told me something I didn't want to hear, but lets consider this.

Stick with what I have, and I have a drivetrain that will drop in and even bolt up without modifying anything at all. The only expense I have is fluids, and tweak time. maybe some nickel and dime stuff.

OR convert to EFI;

This car was never equipped with a computer or internal harness to accomadate one. I would have to start by hardwiring in a computer supply, then route an engine harness. The plug everything in and bolt up. I would need:

Internal harness
Engine harness
Exhaust manifold
Intake manifold (and were not even sure these manifolds will bolt up to my head)
New turbo, OR exhaust housing to accomadate new mounting, use old turbo.
New fuel lines
Intank fuel pump/tanks etup, OR expensive inline.
Intercooler
Inlet/outlet hoses
Custom oil and supply lines because the boss return ports are on the other side of the block.
tweak, tune, then pray.. a fire extinguisher would help too.


So as you can see, money is in question here, so is time involved. I like EFI, but this is what I have and I have too much money already into the block and head to just say "F**k it" and toss is a complete turbo motor and start all over again. SO the above list of goodies is unavoidable.

I'll be quite honest with you guys. You hear a lot about how aweful turbo lag and things of that nature are with the draw through setup, and frankly, I have drivin both, there is little difference until you wanna run more boost. Then the EFI is a little more cooperative. It also has a little more drivability.

Now for an FYI, I can and will soon post a detailed hot rod article on this particular drivetrain so you can all become familiar with your predocessors. They used boost refrencing at two intake runners. One for a special boost refrenced valve on the 5200 holly/webber carb that delivers an extra shot under high boost, the other for thier timing retard box. This system was used to prevent detonation. They did it this way to maintain drivability when not under heavy boost. Considering what mike is saying, yes, you could rely on the vacuuem pressure in the manifold to draw the fuel in, but they made the jets a little too small, to allow drivability and economy when cruising. Under heavy boost, it got the shot to richen the fuel mixture.

Now put on your thinking caps, I have discovered something while I was in the shitter the other day (WE get some good ideas there, don't we?)

Has anyone ever seen the plastic covers that come on new carbs to "cap" them from dust and what not while thier on the shelf, etc ? Thier a thin, cheesy plastic mold that fits perfectly over the carb top?

I propose this (and gimme credit here, this is cool) make a fiberglass mold of this cap to whatever carb i choose, make it thick and strong, cut a big opening in the side of it, or the top, and port a inlet tube into it and feed it with an intercooler. I could really even do this with my stock air cleaner housing, and leave the filter out.. then use a K/N at the pickup.. but Im thinking a filter tube actually, to allow my raim air idea more workability.

Change the turbo cartrige to a water/oil cooled/fed instead of the factory oil fed setup, and I liek the sound of a 500cfm 2 barrell.. incidently, there is something similar on the 4.2 v8 I can donar from.. so, cha ching.. I just saved more money.

What I meant aboput the v8 pump is this. They both use a mechanical pump, same bolt pattern and design, BUT I don't knwo if there could be a difference in the tongue or fulcrum point of the tongue that allows the v8 pump to deliver more fuel pressure. Was just wondering if anyone knew if it was worth it to canabalize the pump.

Remember, despite the nightmares you hear about draw through setups, a manifold mounted blower or supercharger works on a very similar principle, thier just cooler, more efficient, etc.. and the turbo of course spins a lot faster. Another thing to consider is that because my turbo is on the other side of the motor, it is not under the same temp. stress as your turbos are. Yours are directly bolted to the manifold. Mine has a crossover pipe inbetween... and does not suffer the same thermo heat coupling that your turbos suffer from manifold/block. I don't have to tell you that the turbos from my generation last significantly longer because of this. These engines never required an intercooler, but being the tweaking idiot that i am, one would really help me, especially in longevity.

This unit when last assembled maintained good drivability and economy when I didn't lean into it. What I meant was, with the setup and cam the idle was rough and stubborn. Was wondering if anyone had any tips to improve this.

Furthermore, one of the boost refrence ports was split into the wastegate actuator as well. It used pre turbo and post turbo refrencing to control the wastegate. Yes, there were two inlets on the actuator. They set this up to create a push pull effect with positive and negative pressures. All In all it was very hairy. I would love to eliminate this somehow, and use a nice, LOUD blow off valve I think I will have to look into machining a port for it, even then I am unsure of safety because the blow off will contain fuel as well as air..

An interesting note: The hot rod review claims for released the prototypes with a threaded wastegate actuator rod, and that it would not see the production models. Incidently the motor I have has this threaded rod. I could have one of the protoypes of the first ford 2.3 turbos.. c'mon now, IVE GOTTA represent! And even if I don't, I don't have to bleed of precious manifold vacuuem to increase boost, I just give the rod a few turns (LOL) and I get whatever boost I want. So really, the origonal design is quite workable.


perhaps, a throttle body injection setup would be a feesible compromise, I just need to look intot he conversion and requirments.

Everyone sorta caught up at this point? I'll share as long as you share.
I mean, I don't know much of the math involved, you could even help me there. Ie. If each cylender is bored 40 over, whats my displacment up to?

- Matt

PS. Incidently, I talked with a guy whose father and himself built one of these draw throughs in a pinto. I cannot begin to list the mods, but they ran water/alcohol mixture, and when they FINALLY did get a good run it was high 7's the first run the ripped the flywheel off the crank, the second the rear end cam out.. literally. This was quite some time ago, he had an ezboard forum dedicated this these little monsters, and in search to find it again (wich I fear no longer exists) I ran into this board. So I thought i'd give you guys a shot.

[Mike SVOR]

Originally posted by turboluv
Has anyone ever seen the plastic covers that come on new carbs to "cap" them from dust and what not while thier on the shelf, etc ? Thier a thin, cheesy plastic mold that fits perfectly over the carb top?

I propose this (and gimme credit here, this is cool) make a fiberglass mold of this cap to whatever carb i choose, make it thick and strong, cut a big opening in the side of it, or the top, and port a inlet tube into it and feed it with an intercooler. I could really even do this with my stock air cleaner housing, and leave the filter out.. then use a K/N at the pickup.. but Im thinking a filter tube actually, to allow my raim air idea more workability.

Umm, After cracking the weld on my ALUMINUM intercooler last month, I'd say that unless the fiberglass was 2 inches thick or 1 inch thick of carbon fiber, It's gona break.

Make it out of aluminum. It's cheap and can be welded easily.


All in all, it sounds like you have your plan already writen out and need no further explaination of the little things. Maybe you'd benefit from talking to esslinger some?

Only thing I can tell you:
2 barrel carb
cold air induction
large turbo inlet housing
cold gas



Mike SVOR

[Cracker289]

I have seen pressure "boxes" that surround the entire carb, with pressurized air from a centrifigual blower or turbo. Just having a sealed lid to pressurize is apparently not the best idea, for some reason (I think maybe it blows out power valves, or something). Not sure who makes these power boxes, though, that the carb mounts in.

You mentioned detonation before, which you attribute to a lack of fuel at higher boost. Are you sure about that? What is your compression ratio?

John

[Zarkon]

Hi,

I understand the delima.
I've owned mine since it was new.
In California we still have to smog 79s so its a real hastle to modernize, but i've thought about it a lot.

I gather you have a stock 4 speed. Get rid of it and install a close ratio 5 speed it is a mirraculous improvement. You can stay in the power band when you shift(very helpful with a turbo).
Its an easy swap the only issue is the cross member it needs some cutting and welding to fit right. Mine went in to the stock clutch, bellhousing, and drive shaft with no trouble. just remember to transfer the speedo worm gear from the tail shaft of the old trans to the new one.

Going Fuel injection is the easiest route to more hp and driveability.

If you go that route the cheapest way might be to find a donor turbo tbird they were fairly common. Strip the everything you need from it.

If you are a purist. there are still a few things you can do.
Add water injection. this will reduce ping.
Get rid of the mechanical fuel pump and install an electric one.
The waste gate on this car is controlled by boost pressure refferenced to local air preasure. You can install an in-car ajustable air-preasure regulator between the waste gate line and the outside air preasure line to trick the waste gate(they used to sell kits for this purpose). this will allow you to dial the boost as high as 12 or 13 lbs when used with the water injection.
(We are talking signigant power here. You can raise the BHP from 137 stock to over 200) the results are dramatic

If you want to see how dramatic just fill the tank with premium, block off the waste gate line, and take it around the block.
Just make sure your head is torked right. LOL

Yep, the the carb is a draw through unit( no preasure box required).
Not much I can sugest here. you might consider using a throttle body fuel injection from a GM car. I wouldn't use the 500CFm holley I think it's barrels open simultaneously. this won't help the driveability issue.

The scoop idea might help, but not as ram air, instead it might help because air across the hood is cooler, just remember the air intake for this car is a snorkle in front of the wheel well.

Now, a question for you!
Does anyone make a replacement for the pipe from the exhaust manifold to the Turbo?
I had one custom made, but it leaked due to poor fitting. I took the car back.
They blamed everything but the guy that bent the pipe wrong. This is getting expensive. That pipe cost over 200 dollars and didn't work.
In fact it melted the clutch cable housing.

Thanks!

[79RSTURBO]

The guys at Racer Walsh in Florida run this set up on some of their in house racers and their customers cars. It has been several years since I have contacted them, so not sure if they are still up and running. They offer an in car boost controller that works miracles for hp output. I suggest using a Holley Projection. You can tune it and get better drivability, plus keep the fuel running at the higher boost levels. Far easier setup than the SVO/TurboCoupe donor idea. If not there are the little holley 390 4 barrel carbs that should flow what you need. I plan on using one or the other. MONEY will decide!

[mg man 75]

Sorry can't be much help. I am EFI turbo. But may want to post here some real good helpful people. And some are carb turbo. You can use the search even not a member. Ps if join use search first then post or will get flamed. I usually don't recommend another forum but bunch of helpful people and they specialize in the 2.3 Turbo. TurboFord.net Forums