KB supercharged 2006 Mustang GT. Now I'm too rich in both banks
So, after replacing the Kenne Bell fuel hose from the drivers side to the passenger side rail, my LTFTs are closer than they were before.. Still 2-4% different.. shouldn't be an issue..
Now, instead of throwing just a P0172 code, I threw both a p0172 AND a P0175.. So now both banks are too rich when I get on the throttle with the engine not fully warmed up.
So, I took some advice from a mechanic and plugged my diablosport in, downloaded the tune from the PCM to the programmer, modified the MAF table a little (made it read less air so it would pull some fuel), and my LTFT's were looking WAY better. Just before doing this, at idle my LTFT's were around -20% in both banks.. After the change they are at like -2 to -4% and within 2% of each other. This is with the engine hot on a hot day. At first I am thinking "this has to be it.. I throw rich codes, so I lean it out a little and the numbers look good." BUT, now even warm, it's bogging and sputtering like it does when it's cold. Also, the idle got worse.. (for more detail on my cold run issues, read any of about half my threads).
So despite the numbers looking better, it runs worse than before. WTF!? If I go the other way and make it more rich, I am just going to throw more codes for too rich.. I'm lost.
Every time I "fix" something, the engine runs worse..
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2006 GT Premium Vert, 5 spd, Tungsten Grey Show: Painted gloss black stripes, Street Scene Gen 1 body kit, side and hood scoops, CDC light bar, sequential tails, purple underglow, 8" shorty antenna, redline hood struts, Steeda Ultralights, 20" Chrome Killers, S.O.S. pillar & 3 gauges. Go: J&M LCA's & Adj. UCA, J&M Adj. Panhard, CHE LCA reloc brackets & torque limiters, 3.73 gears, Kenne Bell Stage 1 2.6l supercharger.
...440rwhp/401rwtq
I had a similar problem, but with my F150 pickup. Throwing the same codes you mentioned. Turned out my Mass Air Sensor was bad. Kinda surprised me because the truck had less than 30 thousand miles on it. I don't know how much one costs for a 'Stang, but it was just shy of $300 for an OEM replacement for my truck...
I haven't read any of your other posts to see if you tried that yet...but that cured the F150.
Good luck.
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'99 GT - My increasingly expensive DIY project car... Vortech V1, Moser 31-spline axles, FRPP diff. w/ 4.10 gears, Steeda Tri-Ax Shifter, Shany Custom pipes, JBA shorty headers, Powerslot rotors, Tokico D-specs, H&R Sport Springs, Steeda Strut Brace, MM X-duty Lower Control Arms, Autometer Phantom Boost and Wideband AFR guage, Custom Rear seat delete, Royal Purple, NGK, BFG
Shouldn't be.. the problem is at partial throttle.. once I go full throttle it runs just fine (more or less). Plus it's the Kenne Bell 90mm maf sensor.. good to like 900 rwhp..
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2006 GT Premium Vert, 5 spd, Tungsten Grey Show: Painted gloss black stripes, Street Scene Gen 1 body kit, side and hood scoops, CDC light bar, sequential tails, purple underglow, 8" shorty antenna, redline hood struts, Steeda Ultralights, 20" Chrome Killers, S.O.S. pillar & 3 gauges. Go: J&M LCA's & Adj. UCA, J&M Adj. Panhard, CHE LCA reloc brackets & torque limiters, 3.73 gears, Kenne Bell Stage 1 2.6l supercharger.
...440rwhp/401rwtq
I had a similar problem, but with my F150 pickup. Throwing the same codes you mentioned. Turned out my Mass Air Sensor was bad. Kinda surprised me because the truck had less than 30 thousand miles on it. I don't know how much one costs for a 'Stang, but it was just shy of $300 for an OEM replacement for my truck...
I haven't read any of your other posts to see if you tried that yet...but that cured the F150.
Good luck.
The first part I replaced was the MAF sensor with a brand new one.. Both are Kenne Bell 90mm
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2006 GT Premium Vert, 5 spd, Tungsten Grey Show: Painted gloss black stripes, Street Scene Gen 1 body kit, side and hood scoops, CDC light bar, sequential tails, purple underglow, 8" shorty antenna, redline hood struts, Steeda Ultralights, 20" Chrome Killers, S.O.S. pillar & 3 gauges. Go: J&M LCA's & Adj. UCA, J&M Adj. Panhard, CHE LCA reloc brackets & torque limiters, 3.73 gears, Kenne Bell Stage 1 2.6l supercharger.
...440rwhp/401rwtq
I always thought supercharging was essentially "stick it on & go"...
Let's put it this way: The supercharger works fine.. I made 440rwhp last week. The problem is when the engine is cold.. once warm it runs pretty much fine, with the occasional hiccup and a crappy idle, which got better with the new throttle body, but worse again when I leaned out the maf table.. Makes no sense.
Right now the tune I am on turns on the O2 sensors right away, so I am in closed loop when the engine is cold. The feedback from the sensors helps, but if I go WOT it goes back to open loop, and if the engine isn't up to temp, it is too rich.. Used to be only in Bank1, now it's both banks... That part makes sense when you see -20% LTFTs at idle..
If I can tune the fuel to be right, but it makes the problem worse, or tune the fuel to be way off but it makes it better, then there has to be something mechanical not working right. I think the next step is to replace the coils.. I can't think of anything else that would be a problem.. if I am not getting enough spark, I would see a drop in power and some sputtering and popping.. Problem is I swapped the plugs back to the factory ones and no change, so maybe I have a coil that is not giving enough spark that starts to work better when the engine is up to temp (or maybe the fuel is just easier to ignite when the engine is hot). Only thing holding me back is NO codes for spark or coil or misfire, and the fact that almost everyone here says aftermarket coils are crap.
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2006 GT Premium Vert, 5 spd, Tungsten Grey Show: Painted gloss black stripes, Street Scene Gen 1 body kit, side and hood scoops, CDC light bar, sequential tails, purple underglow, 8" shorty antenna, redline hood struts, Steeda Ultralights, 20" Chrome Killers, S.O.S. pillar & 3 gauges. Go: J&M LCA's & Adj. UCA, J&M Adj. Panhard, CHE LCA reloc brackets & torque limiters, 3.73 gears, Kenne Bell Stage 1 2.6l supercharger.
...440rwhp/401rwtq
This is a crappy situation for sure. I wish I had the 100% correct answer. It seems like you are taking the right logical steps to diagnose it.
Have you tried pushing the fuel system reset button under the driver's side dash? It's a little black squishy button located right next to the hood latch release. Most people never even notice it's there.
When I installed GT500 fuel pumps and relocated my MAF i had to have my car towed to tune shop would not run for crap. Tune shop had to remap the ecu from the start. They called me one time and ask what I had done, nothing but MAF and fuel pumps. Well they finally got her running. Took them a bit of time but they finally got her figured out. I have to let her warm up before I get on it. DTC codes I used to get are no longer P0430. Tuner took car home with his computer just to make sure things where going good.
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2005 Mustang GT, p1sc1 procharger w/3 core inter cooler, 10 psi boost,, 39# fuel injectors, kook long tube headers, high flow cats, x pipe, magna flow mufflers, che lca, anti squat brackets, che tubular lateral stiffener bar, 1 piece aluminum drive shaft, che engine torque limiters, hurst shifter, A pillar boost and oil press gauges. Steeda lowering spring kit. CM delete plates. New eaton posi rear end(600rwhp), 3.73 gears. MAfia maf sensor, 470rwhp, 423ft# torque.
1. fuel delivery will be in "open loop" (rich), as the front o2's begin to warm up the fuel delivery will switch to "closed loop" (14.64).
2. During most drving times the PCM will try to control fuel delivery (STFT) at 14.64. That is until you go to "open loop" (11.8 +/-) at about (3000 rpm).
The only way to tell what is really going on is to run a datalog. Datalogging from cold engine to warmed engine, normal driving to WOT driving.
Some of the attached monitoring points shown will not be applicable to your setup.
Hope this helps.
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2005 Mustang GT Automatic Screaming Yellow
WMS 80mm HV Intake W/ Ram Hood
SCTuning by John and Matt - Mustang Muscle Performance
93 Octane Race and transmission tune
Saleen Stainless Steel UDP's, BMR Front Sway Delete,
PH Aluminum DS, Steeda LCA's, Steeda UCA
FRPP 3.73 Gears, IMCO Extreme Axle Back Exhaust
255/50/17 Tires BFG GForce T/A KWDS
1. fuel delivery will be in "open loop" (rich), as the front o2's begin to warm up the fuel delivery will switch to "closed loop" (14.64).
2. During most drving times the PCM will try to control fuel delivery (STFT) at 14.64. That is until you go to "open loop" (11.8 +/-) at about (3000 rpm).
The only way to tell what is really going on is to run a datalog. Datalogging from cold engine to warmed engine, normal driving to WOT driving.
Some of the attached monitoring points shown will not be applicable to your setup.
Hope this helps.
Right now, the tune I have from KB is set to run closed loop at all times (except WOT of course). This was done in effort to eliminate the cold run issue as the feedback from the O2 sensors helped to reduce the problem. Unfortunately, it didn't eliminate it, and it seems the problem is getting worse.
I have datalogged the hell out of the thing, but so far nothing seems out of line. One log I did showed the fuel rail pressure dropping while it was bogging down even though throttle was increasing. Fuel pressure shot up when the bogging stopped. I took this to be a delivery issue and changed the factory pump. No change. I then disconnected the Boost-a-Pump and connected the FPDM back to how it was supposed to be, but there was no change. I am now thinking the fuel pressure change I saw was a result of the bogging, not the cause.
The problem here is there is no way to tell what is happening when it bogs. The AF gauge reads lean, which could mean one of 3 things: Either I am getting too much air, not enough fuel, or so much fuel that the spark is doused and raw fuel is dumping into the exhaust, where the O2 sensor reads a lot of unburnt oxygen. When the bogging begins, if I continue to give it gas, there will be some popping as well as the bogging - not a complete backfire, but something odd like that. This tends to suggest the third option.
Based on the fact that my LTFTs are now running at -25% at idle, in other words the PCM is pulling a ton of fuel based on the feedback from the O2 sensors, one would tend to think the tune is set way too rich. This would go along with the idea that too much fuel is causing a misfire based on the inability of the spark to ignite the over-rich mixture. This is further supported by throwing too rich codes if I go WOT when the engine is cold. I went with that and adjusted the amount of air seen by the MAF sensor by -3%, hoping this would pull fuel. My LTFTs came down to about -2 to -4% instead of -25%, and I thought I nailed the problem. HOWEVER, now even warm the engine was bogging when I dipped into the throttle. So the bogging problem got worse as the numbers got better. It makes NO sense to me.
Now I am questioning wheter the AF meter is indeed showing a lean condition when the bogging occurs, as leaning it out slightly enhances the problem. However, this doesn't explain the rich codes or the LTFTs..
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2006 GT Premium Vert, 5 spd, Tungsten Grey Show: Painted gloss black stripes, Street Scene Gen 1 body kit, side and hood scoops, CDC light bar, sequential tails, purple underglow, 8" shorty antenna, redline hood struts, Steeda Ultralights, 20" Chrome Killers, S.O.S. pillar & 3 gauges. Go: J&M LCA's & Adj. UCA, J&M Adj. Panhard, CHE LCA reloc brackets & torque limiters, 3.73 gears, Kenne Bell Stage 1 2.6l supercharger.
...440rwhp/401rwtq
Right now, the tune I have from KB is set to run closed loop at all times (except WOT of course). This was done in effort to eliminate the cold run issue as the feedback from the O2 sensors helped to reduce the problem. Unfortunately, it didn't eliminate it, and it seems the problem is getting worse.
I have datalogged the hell out of the thing, but so far nothing seems out of line. One log I did showed the fuel rail pressure dropping while it was bogging down even though throttle was increasing. Fuel pressure shot up when the bogging stopped. I took this to be a delivery issue and changed the factory pump. No change. I then disconnected the Boost-a-Pump and connected the FPDM back to how it was supposed to be, but there was no change. I am now thinking the fuel pressure change I saw was a result of the bogging, not the cause.
The problem here is there is no way to tell what is happening when it bogs. The AF gauge reads lean, which could mean one of 3 things: Either I am getting too much air, not enough fuel, or so much fuel that the spark is doused and raw fuel is dumping into the exhaust, where the O2 sensor reads a lot of unburnt oxygen. When the bogging begins, if I continue to give it gas, there will be some popping as well as the bogging - not a complete backfire, but something odd like that. This tends to suggest the third option.
Based on the fact that my LTFTs are now running at -25% at idle, in other words the PCM is pulling a ton of fuel based on the feedback from the O2 sensors, one would tend to think the tune is set way too rich. This would go along with the idea that too much fuel is causing a misfire based on the inability of the spark to ignite the over-rich mixture. This is further supported by throwing too rich codes if I go WOT when the engine is cold. I went with that and adjusted the amount of air seen by the MAF sensor by -3%, hoping this would pull fuel. My LTFTs came down to about -2 to -4% instead of -25%, and I thought I nailed the problem. HOWEVER, now even warm the engine was bogging when I dipped into the throttle. So the bogging problem got worse as the numbers got better. It makes NO sense to me.
Now I am questioning wheter the AF meter is indeed showing a lean condition when the bogging occurs, as leaning it out slightly enhances the problem. However, this doesn't explain the rich codes or the LTFTs..
Your probably not going to like this............but, find a reputable SCT tuner that has a dyno and have them do a custom tune on it. Should take about an hour or two to get your car running like it should. Your looking at approx $185 for the custom tune. Depends on the shop.
Some of your better tuners will not email F/I tunes for the very reasons your stating above.
Good Luck
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2005 Mustang GT Automatic Screaming Yellow
WMS 80mm HV Intake W/ Ram Hood
SCTuning by John and Matt - Mustang Muscle Performance
93 Octane Race and transmission tune
Saleen Stainless Steel UDP's, BMR Front Sway Delete,
PH Aluminum DS, Steeda LCA's, Steeda UCA
FRPP 3.73 Gears, IMCO Extreme Axle Back Exhaust
255/50/17 Tires BFG GForce T/A KWDS
Your probably not going to like this............but, find a reputable SCT tuner that has a dyno and have them do a custom tune on it. Should take about an hour or two to get your car running like it should. Your looking at approx $185 for the custom tune. Depends on the shop.
Some of your better tuners will not email F/I tunes for the very reasons your stating above.
Good Luck
You don't need to take that route, just need someone that knows how to properly tune with Diablo... SCT isn't any better, it's all in the person behind the keyboard!
Get ahold of Rick at Amazon in South Carolina to create a Custom Tune File through E-mail. Send him your Datalogs and he'll find the solution, He's knows Diablo Software as good as anyone, his daily driver is a Hellion 05GT! He tunes Many of the Southeasts Fasted Cobras and SVT Lightnings! Tell him Craig Hooker from SVT Performance referred you!! Contact us in Anderson, South Carolina, for performance auto parts, performance chips, and Dyno Tuning - Home
How is a tune going to fix my intermittent cold run problem? That is the part I am not understanding here. The car makes 440 rwhp when warm, AF ratio is good at WOT, and the tunes I have tried all work perfect on other stage 1 KB installs.
Every tuner I talk to is interested in seeing what it does on a long pull.. including the guys at KB. The thing runs perfect on a long pull. The problem is when I am not in boost, when not in WOT, and when there are hundreds of variables controlling the engine.
I do need a good tuner, but not someone who can put it on a dyno and get the most power from it, I need someone who understands every one of the variables involved in an engine running below optimal running temperature, taking every system that affects fuel delivery into account. A person like this could drive the car a couple times after it sits for a day or so and go "Oh, it looks like ******* is the problem".. Finding someone who doesn't have to call a buddy, or look up the symptoms in a manual, or refer to a problem he saw like this back in 1985 on his Honda is the hard part. I am sure a local mechanic would eventually find the problem, given a few weeks and a few thousand dollars for their time, but I simply can't afford it.
I do subscribe to the idea that every part in this car was made on the same assembly line that every other mustang using the Kenne Bell supercharger was made on, and they all work. That means there is some other factor affecting the car. If you needed a custom tune for each individual car that comes off the assembly line, Ford would be bankrupt with GM and Chrysler. The fact is, with some very minor discrepancies, every 4.6 3v is the same, and the same tune should work on every one of them, all other things being equal. The supercharger I put on is on thousands of stock 4.6 3v's working fine. The tune and the supercharger are doing what they should do, making boost and putting lots of power to the ground.
If anyone here wants to see some datalogs, I would be happy to post them. In my opinion, until I get an experienced and interested mechanic to put some effort into finding my problem, the only change I have at fixing the problem is replacing something that either broke when I installed the supercharger, or was bad to begin with. So far, I haven't had much luck, but I refuse to waste thousands of dollars on mechanics who only know how to fix a problem if they have seen it before..
There is one tuner in town who has any experience at all on dyno tuning, btw, and while he is getting pretty good at tuning for power, he relies on the guys at SCT to troubleshoot anything he runs up against. That really leaves me only with an option of finding a reputable tuner who lives in a bigger city and shipping the car to him, once again, putting the minimum amount of cash outlay in the thousands, with no guarantee of a fixed problem.
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2006 GT Premium Vert, 5 spd, Tungsten Grey Show: Painted gloss black stripes, Street Scene Gen 1 body kit, side and hood scoops, CDC light bar, sequential tails, purple underglow, 8" shorty antenna, redline hood struts, Steeda Ultralights, 20" Chrome Killers, S.O.S. pillar & 3 gauges. Go: J&M LCA's & Adj. UCA, J&M Adj. Panhard, CHE LCA reloc brackets & torque limiters, 3.73 gears, Kenne Bell Stage 1 2.6l supercharger.
...440rwhp/401rwtq
KB supercharged 2006 Mustang GT. Now I'm too rich in both banks 
