[odingalt]

Hi guys. I lack mechanical know-how. I'm an engineer in real life but not mechanical. So as you all know most engineers are pretty dense. My question is why do companies like ProCharger and Whipple advertise 50%+ horsepower gains in a 'completely stock engine', and why is it safe to install a supercharger on an otherwise stock car?

Take the new 2005 Mustang for example. The car is rated at 300hp (this is at the flywheel?) If all engineers are alike (which they are), or anything like the company I am with, they only engineer all of the components to handle a little more hp, like maybe 350, to save money. I.e. there is no reason for them to pay more $$$ to have pistons and caps etc engineered put in the new 2005 Mustang to withstand much more torque than the 300hp rating. So throwing in a supercharger in all logic should just make a steel mess out of the inside of your engine when you put it to the floor?

Yet all these superchargers companies make it sound like you can just slap the ol' supercharger in and rev up. So my next question is how does a little guy like me try to really find out what needs to be changed out in the engine along with the supercharger. At that point isn't it easier just to buy an engine in a crate rather than having to have an engine rebuild with all the new stronger components?

[odingalt]

Ok I found the idiot's guide to superchargers. Anyone else who is also curious, check out this link http://www.superchargersonline.com/content.asp?ID=31 or http://www.superchargersonline.com/t...asp?RecordID=6

Ok so superchargers pipe more air (allowing more fuel to be injected?) into the same combustion chamber, allowing more power at lower RPM's. So you take an intercooled supercharged stock car up to the redline at 6000 and kaboom your crankshaft comes flying out the side because you were probably making closer to 400-450 HP instead of the stock 300. Or maybe your tranny smells like burned pig poop, or maybe your driveline snaps and got left on the freeway behind you, or maybe your 8.8" diff just broke and you're spinning out of control.

How do I find out what a Ford 2005 Mustang GT driveline and 3-Valve 4.6L engine can REALLY do? This should make for a good argument among the car techies out there. Good luck gentleman, start your soap boxes!

[RPS]

Really the only way to find out is when the supercharger makers start doing runs and tunes to see what they can get out of it. I'm hoping there is some good data in January.

But, the 2004 F150's are putting out some very good numbers with forced induction.

[Glen]

Not to sound sarcastic, but here is the flip side of what you are asking.

I am a marketing guy. And as you know, we will tell you just about anything if it will help you buy our product. But of course, if I told you a complete lie, the company I worked for would go out of business. So management takes the real information about what a product can "actually" do from the engineers and listens to the marketing people who want tell lies and come up with a reasonable statement about what the product can do for potential customers. Therefore, the true answer falls somewhere between truth and fiction.

Given that, the truth about superchargers goes something like this. Adding a supercharger to a stock engine is safe, if safe to you means you except the fact that you will cut your engines life in half. It is safe to say, most engines will last beyond 100K miles. Most supercharged engines last about 50k miles do to the additional stresses of the extra horsepower and combustion pressures.

Then there are additional risks that the supercharger companies just happen to not mention. For example, if the supercharger is not properly installed and setup, including proper engine tuning, the engine could melt down from detonation or the like. Or there is the risk an engine could have a unique fatal flaw that is only discovered once the extra stress is put on the engine because of the supercharger. Not a design flaw, but hair line crack type of flaw.

Those are the two main issues to consider when you are thinking about adding a supercharger.

Some veriables to consider. Some engines are just plain designed better and stronger then others. And of course Ford isn't going to tell you how well any particular engine design handles supercharging. So trial and error is going to tell you. You should read the forums about people experiences with their same engine and supercharging. This will tell you if supercharging your particular engine has any greater risks. If very few have added superchargers to your engine type, then the questions becomes, do you want to be the test mule?

Another rule of thumb. More boost dramatically increases the risk of engine failure. The difference between 8lbs and 10lbs on some engines is the difference between a 50K mile motor and a 1k mile motor. Some people get addicted to horsepower and want more and more. So the boost the pressure.

You can be assured of two things. Most companies who build superchargers know the basic limits of acceptable boost and will stay in the conservative range. Second, Ford knows the Mustang engine is going to be modified with more power (some superchargers) by us mustang people, so they most likely took some precautions in building the 2005 engine a little stronger.

When it comes to superchargers, it is all about comfort level. Learn from others if your engine has any supercharger issues in it design. Get a conservative boost system, have it installed by a professional who has a good reputation for setting up your particular motor with superchargers. Run a conserative (safe) tune on the engine (timing, fuel ratio). Don't get greedy on power. Follow these rules and the risk of engine failure before 50K miles is very small.

Know that superchargers are a great way to add power if the rules are followed. From what I know about engine designs and what parts Ford used in this engine, I would say that the 2005 engine will assume the same risks/benefits of the 2004 GT engine. Both have a similiar internal material (ie pistons, etc.).

[odingalt]

That sounds like a fair run down of superchargers. So would replacing any components of the motor with stronger components really help that much? It sounds to me like it would make more sense to spend $10 grand on a bigger engine than to waste $5 on a supercharger.

[sebastian]

you use 5 grand on a supoer charger and 5 grand on forged internals, ie- pistons, rods, and crank, dont forget better cams, port/polish heads or better heads, intake manifold(depending on what type of blower is used). that way you have a strong motor, that will handle more boost, flow more air/fuel which in turn gives you lots more horsepower but also reliability. I always say theres 2 ways to do something, a right way, and a wrong way. while in this case if you dont buy forged internals, your motor could last 1k, 25k, 50k possibly longer, but theres no way to really say....

[bigbird]

I installed an Eaton super charger in a stock 97 t-bird 4.6L. Got a "tune" from Reinhart automotive and drove that car, hard sometimes for 10 years. Never had a problem with the engine. I sold it last month and it had around 175,000 miles on it and still ran great. I think the new 3v motors are even better than the older 2v 4.6. JDM engineering has 2 Mustangs that have automatic tranny's and they are pushing 0ver 600Hp in a completely stock setup, other than supercharger and tune. THey tell me they have made over 200 runs at the strip and have never lost an engine or transmission. It's all in the tune.

[Buddyweiser]

Originally Posted by sebastian

you use 5 grand on a supoer charger and 5 grand on forged internals, ie- pistons, rods, and crank, dont forget better cams, port/polish heads or better heads, intake manifold(depending on what type of blower is used). that way you have a strong motor, that will handle more boost, flow more air/fuel which in turn gives you lots more horsepower but also reliability. I always say theres 2 ways to do something, a right way, and a wrong way. while in this case if you dont buy forged internals, your motor could last 1k, 25k, 50k possibly longer, but theres no way to really say....

I always say build the engine then add boost as well otherwise you're in for a disaster. and you're right about the tune, when the engine is putting out 500 HP to the crank and even more torque and everything is spinning at insane speeds, any hint of detonation can destroy an engine and then all that hard work and MONEY is all gone.

[thump_rrr]

I own an 05 with over 850 1/4 mile runs and 25,000 miles.

In the first year I put over 600 1/4 mile runs N/A along with 12,000 miles.

I did all the boltons and ran a best of 12.46.

I was following the progress of JDM and their Saleen S/C project.

Last summer I installed the Saleen S/C with the JDM Stage II package at 10psi, gt500 fuel pumps along with their mail order tune. The car ran a best of 11.427@ 119.92 with 17" E.T. Streets and 4.10 gears.

This year I installed the 12 psi pulley and the GT500 throttle body and brought the car to JDM to have a custom tune done.

Jim Sr. put the car on the rollers and did 2 pulls while data logging and checking the A/F ratio.

Even though I gave him carte blanche to custom tune the car and spend more of my money he told me that the A/F was perfect and that there was no need to custom tune it.



The car has performed flawlessly for the past 13 months doing over 300 1/4 mile runs and another 13,000 miles.

JDM has sold over 600 stage I and II packages without a single known engine failure.

I am planning to build my motor eventually and I already have another engine block sitting on my engine stand ready to begin my build.

The bottom line is go with a proven combination and minimize the risk.

I am not naive in thinking that nothing can happen to my engine but I am taking a calculated risk with a well proven setup.

And yes that is 500rwhp on a dynojet with stock internals.

[bigbird]

Besides which don't these things have knock sensors? Shouldn't that help protect the engine somewhat? Also I don't have $12,000.00 sitting around. 6,000.00 was a bit of a stretch. Given the research and experience of JDM I feel safe in doing this upgrade as I don't normally drag race, it's just nice to have the power knowing if you really want to .....

[bigbird]

Originally Posted by thump_rrr

I own an 05 with over 850 1/4 mile runs and 25,000 miles.

In the first year I put over 600 1/4 mile runs N/A along with 12,000 miles.

I did all the boltons and ran a best of 12.46.

I was following the progress of JDM and their Saleen S/C project.

Last summer I installed the Saleen S/C with the JDM Stage II package at 10psi, gt500 fuel pumps along with their mail order tune. The car ran a best of 11.427@ 119.92 with 17" E.T. Streets and 4.10 gears.

This year I installed the 12 psi pulley and the GT500 throttle body and brought the car to JDM to have a custom tune done.

Jim Sr. put the car on the rollers and did 2 pulls while data logging and checking the A/F ratio.

Even though I gave him carte blanche to custom tune the car and spend more of my money he told me that the A/F was perfect and that there was no need to custom tune it.



The car has performed flawlessly for the past 13 months doing over 300 1/4 mile runs and another 13,000 miles.

JDM has sold over 600 stage I and II packages without a single known engine failure.

I am planning to build my motor eventually and I already have another engine block sitting on my engine stand ready to begin my build.

The bottom line is go with a proven combination and minimize the risk.

I am not naive in thinking that nothing can happen to my engine but I am taking a calculated risk with a well proven setup.

And yes that is 500rwhp on a dynojet with stock internals.

What do you think the engine build will cost you?

[thump_rrr]

Originally Posted by bigbird

What do you think the engine build will cost you?

Shortblock $4,000 +block which I already have
Stage III Heads with oversized valves $3,000 + $400-$500 for cores + $300.00 for brand new camshafts

$3,000 for gaskets, ARP Head Studs, oil pan, pickup tube, front cover, timing chains, chain tensioners, VCT sprockets, 8 bolt aluminum flywheel etc...

[$teve]

One point, the Saleen supercharged Stang comes with a 36k warranty. Suggests to me that these engines can handle a modest SC system -- also doubt that 50k is the upper limit for such an engine -- would be bad for Saleen and Ford.

[don_w]

Holy crap... a resurrected thread from 2004

[Mick]

I will add my 2 cents here. I have had my ups and downs with JDM mostly ups. I will say this some of you know I am having a problem with the tune and the 60lb injectors mostly throttle responce. Senior has not taken one dime from me because he has not gotten the tune down all the way and he will not take any money when he gets it. Right now I have a modified extreme tune in the car and I believe I am at 549 at the wheels on stock internanals. I do take it easy trust me, but to spin the tires at 100mph shifting into fourth gear is a thrill. The rwhp is up only till next week. I send them a report everytime I use the car on what it is doing. And I hope it stays in one piece.