[Tony407]

Installed a Ford Racing performance handling pack - Shocks, struts, springs, front and rear stabilizer bars & strut tower bar. Lowered my car about 1.5 inches. Had my dealership install it. They had to put in a camber kit I believe & aligned the car and said it was fine.

But I keep reading about other parts that I may "need" to add to my car since it's been lowered. For example, I keep seeing adjustable panhard rods advertised as a necessity for lowered cars.

Is there a definitve article or site out there that might explain these things a little more clearer? Basically I want to know if there's something my car NEEDS after a suspension kit has been added, and what those things might be. Or is it all just hype? I just need some good, reliable reading material.

Thanks in advance.

Tony

[Buck_Nekid]

I'm in the same boat, Tony. My FR Handling Pack is being installed Monday.

I know the panhard rod stiffens up the rear-end, helping to eliminate unpredictable behavior while the car is cornering near its limit. This feeling is caused by the rear of the car steering itself without any input from the driver, caused by the sideways movement of the rear axle. Sounds pretty important for road racing. BUT, I haven't seen any refence to the panhard rod correcting an issue introduced by lowering.

In reading around, one thing lowering the car impacts is the roll center. Steeda makes a weld-in Control Arm Relocation Kit to lower the car's center of gravity and maintain the correct roll center: http://www.steeda.com/store/-catalog/555-8116.htm

My frustration is that I have not been able to find any information or description of the behind-the-wheel driving impact of having the car in this condition. What does "improper roll center" feel like? By lowering the car, does it now roll MORE? Is it less stable? More oversteer, or understeer? When I go to the circuit with the suspension installed, what can I expect?

I can find PLENTY of technical discussion of suspension geometry and roll center calculation... but no one talks about how the car DRIVES (especially compared to stock)...

[Beerme]

I also plan on getting the FRPP handling pack this spring and have the same questions. What have you guys thought after installing the Kits? Major improvement? Whats the ride quality like? How much did you pay for the install or how difficult was the install if you did it yourself? I'd appreciate your opions/info.

:thumbsup

[SportsPix]

Hi tony,

OK I'll tell you the truth. The dealer told you that your car was fine because they don't have anything else to sell you that will correct your now shifted rear axle even if they are smart enough to know how to re-center the rear axle under the car.

The other problem is that when you lowered your car and they "checked" your car's alignment all they likely did was check the front camber without confirming thrust alignment.

With a 3-link live axle suspenion using a Panhard bar for lateral axle location it's normal for the rear axle's vertical travel to move with a slight arc as the suspension moves through it's range of travel. This is normal and the arc traveled is designed to be optimal at the stock ride height. When you lowered the car's ride hight you altered the normal mid point location of the axle in the arc as described by the Panhard bar. This causes the axle to be shifted to the left in your case and to cause the arc to continue farther from ideal as the suspension compresses. To correct this shift in axle location all you really need is an adjustable Panhard bar to allow getting the axle back under the car in the correct location. At the moment there is no product you can buy off the shelf to restore the correct angle to the Panhard bar after lowering the car on an S197. Eventually somebody will make one but not so far.

But you can and should re-center the axle under the car to get the car to feel the same when turning left or right. This Buy setting thr axel under the car correctly you also will increase wheel and tire clearance allowing you to mount larger tires than without re-centering the axle.

But the biggest advantage to getting an adjustable Panhard bar and a heavy duty Panhard bar brace is the much improved handling feel and precision corner placement. This increased precision is brought about by increased bushing stiffness and better mechanical location of the chassis side Panhard bar pickup point. This is the biggest area of improvement, handling, a big advantage in fast transitions and steady state cornering with much improved driver confidence while cornering.

Don't you want this? It's cheap and you will be amazed at what you are missing especially if you are comming from a sports car or precision handling European performance car. For a fineness driver handling is a large part of what makes a car satisfying to drive. Installing an adjustable Panhard bar and a heavy duty Panhard bar brace will make a big difference in your car's dynamic feel.

The other things you can do to the S197 chassis to improve handling balance and feel, they are easy to find out about. I've written a few posts explaining what each performance suspension part can do for the S197 chassis. you have the major components upgraded but there are a ton of other items to improve performance and handling feel.

Quickly, up front the lowered car has altered the basic geometry of the front and rear suspension AND the relationships between the front and rear roll centers by altering the roll height of the front and rear ends. In front you lowered the roll center when you installed the lowering springs. This causes a few issues, one is that your car wants to roll MORE now than before the car was lowered! To restore most of this change you can install Steeda's front control arm relocation kit. This kit will require a good shop (preferably one familar with chassis fabrication), that can weld very well and follow directions.

The other thing that got changed when you lowered the car up front was the relationship of the anti-roll bar to the strut pickup point. You can install Steeda's adjustable anti-roll bar end links to correct the altered geometry and regain some additional roll resistance. Get Steeda's street version end link kit with ball joints NOT the solid rod ends, they are noisy and limit steering angle.

At the rear when the rear ride height was lowered you messed up a lot of important items that combined hurt the car's inherent good handling. The altered suspension slightly lowered the rear roll center, shifted the axle to the left, altered the mid-piont of the arc defined by the Panhard bar and radically altered the IC (instant center), and mid-point of the arc defined by the LCA's in side view of the rear suspsneion geometry.

To correct this end requires a bit more work than the front end. First you can't do much about the roll center height without making a new axle side bracket and there is not one on the market yet. Next issue, axle shift is easy to fix with an adjustable Panhard bar and heavy duty Panhard bar brace. The altered mid-point acr location os no ixable without a bracket as in the first issue. IC and the problem of th LCA mid-point arc position (Understeer caused by the rear axle steering the car), is easy to correct by installing BMR's weld-in lower control arm relocation brackets and droping the LCA's down one hole from the stock location on the axle.

Additionaly you can get much better launch behavior from the rear axle by replacing the upper controll arm with an adjustable piece from BMR or Steeda. This will reduce or eliminate rear wheel hop and allow you to set pinion angle.


This pretty mch sums up what you can do to fix the problems you created by lower the car that nobdy told you about before you lowered it!

I hope this helps! Please post or email any questions.


Cheers

Originally Posted by Tony407

Installed a Ford Racing performance handling pack - Shocks, struts, springs, front and rear stabilizer bars & strut tower bar. Lowered my car about 1.5 inches. Had my dealership install it. They had to put in a camber kit I believe & aligned the car and said it was fine.

But I keep reading about other parts that I may "need" to add to my car since it's been lowered. For example, I keep seeing adjustable panhard rods advertised as a necessity for lowered cars.

Is there a definitve article or site out there that might explain these things a little more clearer? Basically I want to know if there's something my car NEEDS after a suspension kit has been added, and what those things might be. Or is it all just hype? I just need some good, reliable reading material.

Thanks in advance.

Tony

[thump_rrr]

Have you seen the Lakewood Watts Link for the 05?
Lakewood Watts Link

[W1ldcat]

Thanks SportsPix,
Very informative and enough to let me be happy with my car as it sits untill I learn and fully understand what's involved with lowering a car. I want better handeling a lot more than just stance and looks.
Great post,
WC

[Tony407]

Originally Posted by SportsPix

Hi tony,

OK I'll tell you the truth. The dealer told you that your car was fine because they don't have anything else to sell you that will correct your now shifted rear axle even if they are smart enough to know how to re-center the rear axle under the car.

The other problem is that when you lowered your car and they "checked" your car's alignment all they likely did was check the front camber without confirming thrust alignment.

With a 3-link live axle suspenion using a Panhard bar for lateral axle location it's normal for the rear axle's vertical travel to move with a slight arc as the suspension moves through it's range of travel. This is normal and the arc traveled is designed to be optimal at the stock ride height. When you lowered the car's ride hight you altered the normal mid point location of the axle in the arc as described by the Panhard bar. This causes the axle to be shifted to the left in your case and to cause the arc to continue farther from ideal as the suspension compresses. To correct this shift in axle location all you really need is an adjustable Panhard bar to allow getting the axle back under the car in the correct location. At the moment there is no product you can buy off the shelf to restore the correct angle to the Panhard bar after lowering the car on an S197. Eventually somebody will make one but not so far.

But you can and should re-center the axle under the car to get the car to feel the same when turning left or right. This Buy setting thr axel under the car correctly you also will increase wheel and tire clearance allowing you to mount larger tires than without re-centering the axle.

But the biggest advantage to getting an adjustable Panhard bar and a heavy duty Panhard bar brace is the much improved handling feel and precision corner placement. This increased precision is brought about by increased bushing stiffness and better mechanical location of the chassis side Panhard bar pickup point. This is the biggest area of improvement, handling, a big advantage in fast transitions and steady state cornering with much improved driver confidence while cornering.

Don't you want this? It's cheap and you will be amazed at what you are missing especially if you are comming from a sports car or precision handling European performance car. For a fineness driver handling is a large part of what makes a car satisfying to drive. Installing an adjustable Panhard bar and a heavy duty Panhard bar brace will make a big difference in your car's dynamic feel.

First of all, thank you VERY much for such an informative response, Sportspix.

I'm a little confused though, although I am sure I'm missing something. In your first paragraph you say that no one makes an adjustable panhard bar & brace that can re-center my axle, but then later you say that it will. I see all sorts of adjustable panhard bars, so I'm not sure what they will do and what they won't do.

My main question, after reading your reply, is how do I know if I really need one? With my car the way it is now, it sticks to the road like glue, but it feels it's a little squirrely during short, quick turns, especially if there's any bumps or road imperfections. In long, sweeping turns (such as on/off ramps) the car is INSANE and I'm not sure I could ever break traction because I haven't been able to find the car's limits yet.

Basically, I'm not looking to improve and improve and improve handling by adding numerous parts on top of parts. I'm just concerned with doing the PROPER modifications that will ensure that the lowering I've already done won't be contradicted by the lack of any additional parts. In other words, is my Ford Racing handling pack good enough AS IS, or is it missing a crucial part (adjustable panhard bar for example) that is NECESSARY for it to perform optimally?

Tony

[Buck_Nekid]

Lots of great info. Thanks SportPix.

I understand the adjustable panhard bar now and how it realigns the rear-end that's changed by the lowering. Would the Steeda peice(s) here work? http://www.steeda.com/store/-catalog/555-2551.htm

I'm not interested in creating a competition race car. But I do go to track days once in a while. The stock Mustang is well known to be a sub-par performer on road courses and I simply wanted to improve that by getting the Ford Racing Handing Pack. I guess what I need to understand now, is the car WORSE now than it was stock? Have I screwed it up? Or is it improved from stock, but MUST have the panhard bar, control arm relocation and UCA's to be "just right?"

I'm just trying to get a feeling for whether of not I've screwed up the car and made it dangerous even. Am I in for a pound and MUST get these parts to have the car OK again or will it be improved as-is and the other stuff can happen if I choose to get it, somewhere down the line?

I hope these questions make sense... Thanks for all the great info!

[SportsPix]

Hi tony,

You're welcome, I'm always willing to help a fellow Mustang nut out if if I can contribute information.

Ah, I see how you could be confused about the bit where I mention you cannot buy an off the shelf part to restore the angle of the Panhard bar. This is correct, you can't buy a part to relocate the axle side mount of the PB to restore the stock PB angle. The PB angle at ride height is what determines the arc that the axle travels. This is not the same as altering the length of the PB which controls the lateral location of the axle through out it's travel and the centering of the axle in the chassis. So you see to restore the PB angle requires a different part (a bracket that is welded to the rear axle to lower the axle side PB mounting point slightly), than an adjustable Panhard bar.

That unpleasant, confidence sucking feeling you get when driving through a bumpy turn is caused by a combination of the overly stiff valving used in FRPP's performance struts and rear dampers and the larger, stiffer anti-roll bars. That skittish behavior is to some degree an inherent trait of a solid rear axle suspension on a bumpy surface. But this trait is made much worse by the too stiff dampening rates and larger anti-roll bars FRPP chose to use in the handling package. You can improve the skittishness quite a bit if you pulled out the FRPP struts and dampers and installed a set of Tokico's D-Spec adjustable low pressure gas struts and rear dampers. But I suppose this may be a bit much to swallow after installing the complete FRPP kit so recently.

As far as how far you need to go, that's a question that we each have to ask ourselves regarding our cars. I'd say that the answer depends on where you are coming from in terms of vehicles, driving expedience and what you are used to in terms of performance, handling and refinement.

Some people modify their cars for style, looks or BLING and show them or cruise them. Others race them at the drag strip and never drive them on the street while others run their cars or at open track events and road courses and drive them every day. So AFAIK how far you go with your suspension mods will depend on how much pleasure you get out of driving your car and with what level of sophistication and refinement in the suspension you expect or can perceive. I love it all, especially when the builder put some thought and effort into the car.

I drive my cars all the time, I use them and get a lot of pleasure from the act of driving them as hard as they can go, stop and especially turn. Refined, subtle handling in a car with very high usable limits are more fun to me than a car with even higher limits but poor feedback and handling traits. To me it's not so much about the absolute level of performance or grip, it's more about handling feel and a driver's access to these higher limits more of the time and the ease with which anybody can achieve these high performance limits. For a driver that's more interested in handling feel, the stuff I mentioned is going to be more important than it may be for a driver that is happy to toss his car into a turn and hang on for dear life. For the average person, sure maybe the FRPP kit is all he will really need or that he can even perceive as an improvement but he's going to be leaving a huge pile of fun at the curb if he doesn't go a little farther down the road.

I'm oriented toward this type of suspension modification and this is what I suggest unless the person has other ideas or special interests like strong or dedicated drag strip performance. I'm a long time owner and driver of German sports and performance cars. I've had several hot German Fords, Capri 2.0l with Kent I-4 w/P&P'd heads, race cam, pair of Webber DCOE's, Capri 2.6l V-6 w/ P&P'd heads, race cam, punched to 3.2l and Bosch mechanical F.I., Fiesta GT I-4 w/cam and ported heads w/rally suspension. I've also had a string of Porsches off and on including a 914-6 (w/built 3.2l w/F.I.), 911 and 911S. I also loved my VW's, 3 VW GTI's (1 a 16V), 3 VW GLI's (2 16V's), Corrado G60 (a supercharged 1.8l), w/220RWHP which back in the early 90's in a 2,400lb. car was more than enough to pull away from the then HOT 944 Turbo"S" at over 155MPH. I also like a couple of classic BMW coupes, we had an early 2002tii w/Alpina cam and exhaust (FYI these are mechanical F.I.), with a complete Alpina suspension and air dam, and a later, unmolested 2002 w/F.I. also.

A lot of people like Budwiser and some people just won't drink the stuff. For me, at the end of the day it's made right if we can all get together at the bar to share our funny stories about our cars.

I hope this helps!


Cheers

Originally Posted by Tony407

First of all, thank you VERY much for such an informative response, Sportspix.

I'm a little confused though, although I am sure I'm missing something. In your first paragraph you say that no one makes an adjustable panhard bar & brace that can re-center my axle, but then later you say that it will. I see all sorts of adjustable panhard bars, so I'm not sure what they will do and what they won't do.

My main question, after reading your reply, is how do I know if I really need one? With my car the way it is now, it sticks to the road like glue, but it feels it's a little squirrely during short, quick turns, especially if there's any bumps or road imperfections. In long, sweeping turns (such as on/off ramps) the car is INSANE and I'm not sure I could ever break traction because I haven't been able to find the car's limits yet.

Basically, I'm not looking to improve and improve and improve handling by adding numerous parts on top of parts. I'm just concerned with doing the PROPER modifications that will ensure that the lowering I've already done won't be contradicted by the lack of any additional parts. In other words, is my Ford Racing handling pack good enough AS IS, or is it missing a crucial part (adjustable panhard bar for example) that is NECESSARY for it to perform optimally?

Tony

[mustangaretuff]

Originally Posted by SportsPix

16V), 3 VW GLI's (2 16V's), Corrado G60 (a supercharged 1.8l), w/220RWHP which back in the early 90's in a 2,400lb. car was more than enough to pull away from the then HOT 944 Turbo"S" at over 155MPH.

Cheers

Sportpix,

Pretty impressive to be able to get 220 REAR Wheel Horse Power out of a front wheel drive car.

BTW - I know you know your stuff. Just having a little fun

BC

PS. Thanks for all your help, it is appreciated.

[Tony407]

Originally Posted by SportsPix

Hi tony,

You're welcome, I'm always willing to help a fellow Mustang nut out if if I can contribute information.

Ah, I see how you could be confused about the bit where I mention you cannot buy an off the shelf part to restore the angle of the Panhard bar. This is correct, you can't buy a part to relocate the axle side mount of the PB to restore the stock PB angle. The PB angle at ride height is what determines the arc that the axle travels. This is not the same as altering the length of the PB which controls the lateral location of the axle through out it's travel and the centering of the axle in the chassis. So you see to restore the PB angle requires a different part (a bracket that is welded to the rear axle to lower the axle side PB mounting point slightly), than an adjustable Panhard bar.

Thanks for clarifying that! I thought that may have been the case, but like anything I'm trying to learn for the first time, there's a lot of foreign information to take in.

Originally Posted by SportsPix

That unpleasant, confidence sucking feeling you get when driving through a bumpy turn is caused by a combination of the overly stiff valving used in FRPP's performance struts and rear dampers and the larger, stiffer anti-roll bars. That skittish behavior is to some degree an inherent trait of a solid rear axle suspension on a bumpy surface. But this trait is made much worse by the too stiff dampening rates and larger anti-roll bars FRPP chose to use in the handling package. You can improve the skittishness quite a bit if you pulled out the FRPP struts and dampers and installed a set of Tokico's D-Spec adjustable low pressure gas struts and rear dampers. But I suppose this may be a bit much to swallow after installing the complete FRPP kit so recently.

Yes...very hard to swallow! I've already been toying with the idea of changing the front anti-roll bar setting to see if that helps. It's currently in the "middle" setting between soft and firm. I was thinking I'd give soft a try and see what the difference is. Also, would putting the stock anti-roll bars back in help? I'm just trying to justify the amount of money I spent vs. attempting to correct the problem with gear I already have.

Originally Posted by SportsPix

I drive my cars all the time, I use them and get a lot of pleasure from the act of driving them as hard as they can go, stop and especially turn. Refined, subtle handling in a car with very high usable limits are more fun to me than a car with even higher limits but poor feedback and handling traits. To me it's not so much about the absolute level of performance or grip, it's more about handling feel and a driver's access to these higher limits more of the time and the ease with which anybody can achieve these high performance limits. For a driver that's more interested in handling feel, the stuff I mentioned is going to be more important than it may be for a driver that is happy to toss his car into a turn and hang on for dear life. For the average person, sure maybe the FRPP kit is all he will really need or that he can even perceive as an improvement but he's going to be leaving a huge pile of fun at the curb if he doesn't go a little farther down the road.

Well the way I see it now is that I feel like the money I spent on the car might as well be thrown down the tubes if I don't enjoy driving the car. I'm not sure how to describe it, but the car just doesn't feel right. It's just downright jittery and almost feels unpredictable and random. I don't want to drive my car at the extreme limits, but I do want something aggressive without sacrificing the enjoyability of day-to-day driving.

I suppose the 20-inch wheels don't help the situation much, but as far as noticing a difference between the way the car rode stock vs. now, the FRPP seemed to make a much larger difference than the wheels. I'd say 75/25%. (I drove the car with the FRPP with the stock tires for a bit before putting the 20s on.) Anyway, the wheels are what makes the car in my case, and I'd like to keep them if I can reach an agreeable suspension setup.

Anyway, unless I hear differently from you, I think I'll try the soft setting on the front anti-roll bar first & see what difference that makes. And should I even waste my time putting the stock bars back on if the soft setting doesn't help? And finally, if it means the difference between not enjoying my car and enjoying it, I will definitely spend the money to try the adjustable shocks/struts as you suggested.

Originally Posted by SportsPix

I hope this helps!

Yes, you're helping tremendously! Thank you!

Tony

[SportsPix]

Hi mustangaretuff,

Yeah, I figured that out after I pressed the submit button. My DSL has been really flaky for the last couple of weeks and I didn't want to loose what I was thinking. They have been replacing the cables here and the cable between the house and the pole was replaced today so I'll be able to consider what I wrote longer before pressing the submit button. Good catch though!


Cheers

Originally Posted by mustangaretuff

Sportpix,

Pretty impressive to be able to get 220 REAR Wheel Horse Power out of a front wheel drive car.

BTW - I know you know your stuff. Just having a little fun

BC

PS. Thanks for all your help, it is appreciated.

[SportsPix]

Hey mustangaretuff,

I just went back and looked at my testing notes for my old 1990 Corrado G60. I forgot to tell you the best part of that 220FWHP Corrado, that car was pushing 2BARs boost. We had a couple of the special race/rally versions of the G60 blower turning somewhat higher RPM than the recomended max. RPM for a racing G60 unit because we lost so much pressure when we installed the new billet supercharger cam grind and long tube headers we felt it would be worth the extra wear and tear on the blower with the super small pulley. That race G60 blower eventually grenaded (it was the second race G-Ladder I fragged), while I was driving it on the street after about 32,000 miles.

But she was'a real a'fast while she a'lasted. That Corrado was a very low drag car having been lowered quite a bit and having an extended front air dam with a fabricated belly pan and inset rubber side skirts that rode just above level ground along with some other under car air diverters and flaps the car was very slippery. Believe it or not that car was RPM limited in 5th gear and I had already raised the rev. limiter in the ECU by 600RPM! At the 6,800RPM just before the rev limiter in top gear the car was doing a bit over 160MPH on the 225/50X15 Z rated tires which I measured to need 868 rotations per mile on a 7" rim. Like I said she was a'real a'fast car!


Cheers

Originally Posted by mustangaretuff

Sportpix,

Pretty impressive to be able to get 220 REAR Wheel Horse Power out of a front wheel drive car.

BTW - I know you know your stuff. Just having a little fun

BC

PS. Thanks for all your help, it is appreciated.

[SportsPix]

Hi buck_nekid,

I had written a nice reply several hours ago but the DSL went down and I lost it all while trying to get it to post.

Anywho by now you have the car back and after installing the FRPP kit you should have a nice handling car that sticks pretty well. It may ride a bit harsher but if you still have the 17" wheels and PZero Nero's or even 18" wheels it should ride OK on smooth roads and highways. It won't be worse than stock except for the ride. The FRPP MultiMatic struts and dampers are tuned heavily towards the "sport" side of the streetable suspension equation. It should handle pretty well out of the box if a bit stiff once aligned right. But as you learn how the car handles you will soon find that the rear end is less than well behaved now and that for some reason you have less traction and spin the tires more easily when launching hard from a standing stop.

As to the issue of an adjustable Panhard bar and the stiff PB bar brace these items will increase the value of your new suspension in terms of handling precision and handling feel and confidence and I cannot recommend them enough to people with performance suspension already installed. Additionally they allow you to re-center the axle under the car as I've posted before. Heck the adjustable Panhard bar and HD panhard bar brace will improve even the stock car's rear end handling feel.

The BMR lower control arm relocation brackets are essential if you are an open track driver. The problem with lowering the S197 chassis so much using shorter springs is that the rear axle lower control arm geometry gets messed up and this causes rear axle understeering and loss of traction accellerating out of a corner or straights because we altered the IC (instant center). The BMR weld-on LCA relocation brackets solve both of these problems at the same time. You can keep the stock UCA and LCA's if you want to but you will add them sooner or later to control wheel hop and increase handling precision out back. The UCA and LCA's don't correct any actual suspension geometry per se but can help you tune the suspension more easily while eliminating wheel hop on a hard launchs on high traction surfaces.

I hope I've got you calmed down a bit as the FRPP kit is not really bad just a bit stiffly dampened. The rest of the FRPP kit is largely just an Eibach Pro-Kit with Eibach's anti-roll bars added in. The only part I don't really like about the FRPP handling Pack is the performance struts and rear damper rates and the lack of adjustability of the dampeners. The rest is top shelf stuff IMO.


Cheers

Originally Posted by Buck_Nekid

Lots of great info. Thanks SportPix.

I understand the adjustable panhard bar now and how it realigns the rear-end that's changed by the lowering. Would the Steeda peice(s) here work? http://www.steeda.com/store/-catalog/555-2551.htm

I'm not interested in creating a competition race car. But I do go to track days once in a while. The stock Mustang is well known to be a sub-par performer on road courses and I simply wanted to improve that by getting the Ford Racing Handing Pack. I guess what I need to understand now, is the car WORSE now than it was stock? Have I screwed it up? Or is it improved from stock, but MUST have the panhard bar, control arm relocation and UCA's to be "just right?"

I'm just trying to get a feeling for whether of not I've screwed up the car and made it dangerous even. Am I in for a pound and MUST get these parts to have the car OK again or will it be improved as-is and the other stuff can happen if I choose to get it, somewhere down the line?

I hope these questions make sense... Thanks for all the great info!

[SportsPix]

Hi thump,

See this post on the Lakewood Watts link. http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forum...ad.php?t=56067


Cheers

Originally Posted by thump_rrr

Have you seen the Lakewood Watts Link for the 05?
Lakewood Watts Link