Eibach Prokit install issues. Need help with alignment specs!
Need Some help here
Had the Eibach prokit and d specs installed at a local "shop" problems insued from the begining when they told me that the pro kit dropped the car so far that my camber was out of the acceptable range and so was the toe.. From my experience and it is minor, this kit did not require cam adjuster plates or bolts, which they proceeded to install. Does anyone know the acceptable toe and caster and camber for the vehicle, when i drive it now the steering response is sluggish and the car seems to pull to the right. The shop said that the did an alignment but it does not appear that way? By the way they put two large dents in the side of my drivers side door that i overlooked when I picked it up,. I didnt notice it until i was at the gas station after I left...I was so excited about the lowered look..
I am really concerned about the installation now, anyone with any suggestions and alignment info would be greatly appreciated.
alignment print out after springs and d specs installed
camber -1.4
caster 7.5
toe -30'
right
camber -1.5
caster 7.6
toe -25'
after so called alignment
-1.2...r -1.1
7.5...r7.5'
.05'.....r.005
any help would be greatly appreciated...Im sure they will deny that the dents where done by them....any suggestion or comments. OFF TO CRY IN MY BEER!
ask him what the factory specs are. i just dropped my mustang with the pro kit....no d specs tho. im not going to align my car because it handles and drive just fine. i can get a print out for you tomorrow while im at work of the factory specs if u would like
__________________
88 LX Hatch- Was fast...now parted out
06 Tungsten Grey GT- SOLD
07 Black GT- Custom Muffler Delete/BMR LCAs/Hurst Short throw/HID/Smoked Tails/Eibach Sportlines
It's very simple, any time you pull out the lower strut bolts and the strut/spring you will need an alignment. When you install new struts and a set of sport springs like the Eibach Pro-Kit you will require an alignment even if you think it feels O.K., I can assure you the front end will be out of alignment. If you think about it, you lowered the front end 1.5", what do you think this does to the camber and toe? Of course they have changed slightly and while this is a small change with chassis alignment even small differences in setting of camber and toe on the S197 chassis will make a big differnce in steering and feel as You have found out. There is not enough play in the D-Spec's mounting ears to get the car within reasonable camber specifications. But all you really need to get the camber to a reasonable range is to install a $25 Eibach camber bolt kit.
For a street car, daily driver with minimal hard driving stick with the stock camber and toe settings. For an agressively driven car with anti-roll bars you should try about 0.75 - 1.0 degrees negative camber and about 1/16" toe out. For a car without anti-roll bars you will need about 0.5 - 0.75 more negative camber (due to camber loss from body roll), than a car with anti-roll bars. Toe should be the same.
Hope this helps!
Cheers
Quote:
Originally Posted by JK101
Need Some help here
Had the Eibach prokit and d specs installed at a local "shop" problems insued from the begining when they told me that the pro kit dropped the car so far that my camber was out of the acceptable range and so was the toe.. From my experience and it is minor, this kit did not require cam adjuster plates or bolts, which they proceeded to install. Does anyone know the acceptable toe and caster and camber for the vehicle, when i drive it now the steering response is sluggish and the car seems to pull to the right. The shop said that the did an alignment but it does not appear that way? By the way they put two large dents in the side of my drivers side door that i overlooked when I picked it up,. I didnt notice it until i was at the gas station after I left...I was so excited about the lowered look..
I am really concerned about the installation now, anyone with any suggestions and alignment info would be greatly appreciated.
alignment print out after springs and d specs installed
camber -1.4
caster 7.5
toe -30'
right
camber -1.5
caster 7.6
toe -25'
after so called alignment
-1.2...r -1.1
7.5...r7.5'
.05'.....r.005
any help would be greatly appreciated...Im sure they will deny that the dents where done by them....any suggestion or comments. OFF TO CRY IN MY BEER!
__________________
'05 S197GT Premium Coupe, Mineral Grey, M5, IUP, ICAP
Mods: too much to list here but see my profile if interested
There is something I don't understand about the camber bolts/plates. The two bolt holes in the strut are just large enough for the standard bolts to fit through with no play. Does that mean that when you use a camber kit you hog the strut holes out and put in some sort of eccentric bolt? I've seen pictures of the Steeda kit in their catalog. It consists of a plate with replaceable inserts though I can't really visualize how it mounts.
O.K. here's the thing. Imagine that you have a full size bolt, one that just barely fits through all the holes. Then we take that bolt and cut away about 1/3 of the bolt material but instead of using the original bolt center line we offset the center line by that same 1/3. So what we're left with is a much smaller bolt with a big bolt head that is offset and in the middle of that new smaller bolt is a big cam like bump. There is one more little detail you need to know, on the end of this funny bolt we slide a heavy washer with a tab that fits inside the bolt hole on the strut ear. What this little tab does is makes the new offset bolt center line on the edge of the original bolt holes. When we install the offset bolt the threads pass through the strut ear, then the hole in the hub and then back through the other strut ear. In the middle of the bolt located exactly where the hub is we have the cam like bump in the middle of th ofset bolt then the head. What the little washer with the tab does is makes the bolt centered so when we turn it the bump is offset and allows us to push the hub in or out giving us the ability to adjust the camber.
Look at these links they may help more than my explaination did! BTW, these SPC parts are pretty much the same thing as what Eibach is selling, maybe even identical as I cannot tell them apart and I have used several of both on S197 cars.
There is something I don't understand about the camber bolts/plates. The two bolt holes in the strut are just large enough for the standard bolts to fit through with no play. Does that mean that when you use a camber kit you hog the strut holes out and put in some sort of eccentric bolt? I've seen pictures of the Steeda kit in their catalog. It consists of a plate with replaceable inserts though I can't really visualize how it mounts.
__________________
'05 S197GT Premium Coupe, Mineral Grey, M5, IUP, ICAP
Mods: too much to list here but see my profile if interested
Thanks for the help sport pix,
they did install something called concentric? which i think is cam bolts not really sure, im not sure i believe the print out they gave me of the alignment specs, i can literally see the toe in on the front its pretty severe, and the car pulls, and has sluggish response?
should i be able to see the toe-in? thanks for the help, and btw you were the influence on me purchasing this set-up from your previous posts on the d specs...
oh yeah and i also had the steeda phb and phbb installed, there is a lot of noise (clunking in the rear end at low speeds over any sort of bumbs, sounds as if something were rattling or something wasnt tightened properly, i checked the ph brace and seems to be tight, the noise seems to come from the passenger rear? any ideas?
The concentric is the type of bolt used by Eibach and SPC camber kits as shown at the link I posted. If you look at the application for the Mustang there are photos and install instructions.
You can't really see the toe can you? When sitting on level ground and the steering wheel straight if you use the rear tire to line up with the fronts you should not really see anything except for the negative camber. The toe measurement is VERY small and you can't see it or there is something VERY wrong with the alignment. The sluggishness in turn in may be due to excessive toe in but for a strut suspension with performance settings you need to have a slight toe out to get responsive turn in.
I'm happy to have helped you decide what suspension to buy. How do you like the setup?
As to the noise problems you have I can't hear it. But if the noises showed up right after the Panhard bar and Panhard bar brace were installed I'd start looking at them first. The first thing I would do is to get out my 15mm and 18mm standard and deep sockets and a large breaker bar and torque wrench. Break all of the Panhard bar support brace bolts just a bit loose (there are three), along with the Panhard bar nuts themselves (two). You want to just loosen them slightly enough so you can retorque them to the proper torque specs. The two 15mm bolts on the Panhard bar support brace are torqued to about 45ft/lbs. each and at the other end (18mm), gets torqued to 95ft/lbs. The Panhard bar bolt torque spec is 129ft/lbs. each. Another likely spot for the noise is the jam nuts on the adjustable Panhard bar. If they get just a little bit loose you can get a rattle over bumps that you can't figure out the source of. It could be the jam nuts but carefully check your torque specs for all the suspension parts at the rear of the car. I hope this helps!
Cheers
Quote:
Originally Posted by JK101
Thanks for the help sport pix, they did install something called concentric? which i think is cam bolts not really sure, im not sure i believe the print out they gave me of the alignment specs, i can literally see the toe in on the front its pretty severe, and the car pulls, and has sluggish response? should i be able to see the toe-in? thanks for the help, and btw you were the influence on me purchasing this set-up from your previous posts on the d specs...
oh yeah and i also had the steeda phb and phbb installed, there is a lot of noise (clunking in the rear end at low speeds over any sort of bumbs, sounds as if something were rattling or something wasnt tightened properly, i checked the ph brace and seems to be tight, the noise seems to come from the passenger rear? any ideas?
__________________
'05 S197GT Premium Coupe, Mineral Grey, M5, IUP, ICAP
Mods: too much to list here but see my profile if interested
Love the setup, i will check all the settings myself, not really knowing about the concentric bolts this shop charged me 140 for the install of these 2 bolts, when they did the install of everything else.
I can literally see the front tires are angled in at the top when looking straight down over the wheel wells.
Off to see the owner of the shop about the two door dents they put in my door..
Denial im sure!!!
$140.00??? They cost about $25.00 a pair and take 15 minutes per side TOPS to install while on an alignment rack. Seems high to me if indeed $140 was the charge.
Do you have a 1/2" good torque wrench? Torque settings for these fasteners is very important as these very few nuts and bolts are all that hold your suspension in the car. Any single point of failure will be catastropic and potentially dangerous. It's not hard to do but check it out carefully. If you don't have a good torque wrench find a frind or club member who does and knows how to use it.
You should be able to see a slight top in tilt to the wheels and tires when viewed from above. This is suspension camber; when viewed from the top if the tops of the tires tilt inward you have negative camber, tops outward indicated a positive camber. Toe in/out from the same viewing angle is where the front of the tires are pointed inward towards each other or outward away from each other respectively.
I can help you with the door dents but good luck!
Cheers
Quote:
Originally Posted by JK101
Love the setup, i will check all the settings myself, not really knowing about the concentric bolts this shop charged me 140 for the install of these 2 bolts, when they did the install of everything elseic
I can literally see the front tires are angled in at the top when looking straight down over the wheel wells.
Off to see the owner of the shop about the two door dents they put in my door..
Denial im sure!!!
__________________
'05 S197GT Premium Coupe, Mineral Grey, M5, IUP, ICAP
Mods: too much to list here but see my profile if interested
sport pix thanxs alot for all the help, rattling alot still, the car is going in for dent repair tomorrow, they actually admitted to making the dents well didnt admit but agreed to pay for the damage...640.00
The rattling in the rear end is a little unerving because it seems as if everything is loose, with nuts are you talking about torquing? it certainly sounds like the suspension is loose, I will admit the car handles flawlessly now, but the clunking is scary...
what should i look at first the phb or the shocks and struts?
ty in advance spix
The noise could be from the sway bar mounting nuts, Sportspix had pointed this out on an earlier posting that they are a one time use nut, i had similar noises that you have and it seems to be cured by replacing these and making sure they were tight (i did not have a torque setting)
Wait a minute, my brain was on a different channel. What did you have them install on your car exactly? I think I just had a brain fart and was thinking adjustable Panhard bar and Panhard bar suport brace were also installed but I see you only wrote about an Eibach Pro-Kit Spring set and Tokico D-Spec struts and dampers so I'm lost now. I thought I had friends here! Why didn't somebody stop me from having my usual oral diarrea but totally off point?
O.K. I hope I'm back on point. If you have rattles and noise with just a sport spring, strut and rear damper install there is without a doubt an installation problem. With just springs, struts and dampers you should have stock noise and vibration levels and an excellent ride if you don't get too greedy with the dampening level.
As to the cause? That's a good one but I'd start with the anti-roll bar end-links on the new strut body. Depending on the year and production date some S197's had these great nuts that worked perfectly until you take them off! It seems that on the production line the machines can shoot these nuts on just fine but once they are installed they stretch. Of course this is O.K. but once you remove them you cannot get them to stay tight and they need to be replaced with new conventional nuts.
Do you know what a Nyloc nut looks like? If so jack up the car and support it with a good jack stand. Pull off a front wheel and stick your head in the wheel well and look carefully at the anti-roll bar end-link nut which is on a mounting ear/tab near the bottom of the strut's spring seat. Look at the end and see if you can see the Nyloc part of the nut. If not you need to replace these evil POS production-line nuts with special heavy duty captured washer nuts from the Ford dealer.
Yeah it sounds crazy to me too but this is completely true! I only found out about it by accident; by reading a Ford factory shop manual page on the S197 front suspension I saw printed out at the Ford dealer one day! Most of the 2005's I've done needed them and some of the 2006 cars had the old nuts too so if there is a pattern I sure don't know what it is. But it's worth checking out as this is frequently the problem with hard to find noises that sound like they are coming from the middle or maybe front of the car. Those nuts solved my noise problem caused by the end-link nuts which kept loosening up on me.
Another problem I've found is that if you don't use a torque wrench during the installation of these suspension parts there can be noise issues. This is especially true at the rear of the car in particular the LCA's and all of the Panhard bar related fasteners. This is why I was saying to check the PB fasteners for noise from the rear suspension and to torque them with a known good torque wrench.
Keep us posted by posting to this thread or email us with your results. Or if you have any other related questions just ask!
Cheers
Quote:
Originally Posted by JK101
sport pix thanxs alot for all the help, rattling alot still, the car is going in for dent repair tomorrow, they actually admitted to making the dents well didnt admit but agreed to pay for the damage...640.00
The rattling in the rear end is a little unerving because it seems as if everything is loose, with nuts are you talking about torquing? it certainly sounds like the suspension is loose, I will admit the car handles flawlessly now, but the clunking is scary...
what should i look at first the phb or the shocks and struts?
ty in advance spix
__________________
'05 S197GT Premium Coupe, Mineral Grey, M5, IUP, ICAP
Mods: too much to list here but see my profile if interested
Eibach Prokit install issues. Need help with alignment specs! 
