You can argue all day but the bottom line is : Metal is a heat conductor.
Plastic is an insulator. The better the insulation, the less heat conducted.
An inarguable GIVEN law of physics.
Hey KJcinci, I wanted to follow up and see if the system arrived?
I have several guys wanting to know how it worked with the heads, mods..
Thanks!
Last edited by JP DeMolet; 11-28-2005 at 12:39 PM.
UPS has it... they failed to follow instructons for delivery Friday, the Cinci warehouse/pickup was closed this Saturday, they tried to deliver before opening today... but I got a hold of the driver and should have it later today! Sigh!
Will let you know how it goes, hopefully we get it in time to tune and dyno today!
__________________
KJ, poorer but happier
Thanks to: Modular Depot Fox Lake Racing Tunable Induction Power House 411 Sun Coast Creations
AEM posted an article their website talking about the material of the airflow tube is arbitrary because of the velocity of which the air passes through it. I'm not overly technical, but it still makes sense to me (air is moving rapidly enough where the temperature rise through the flow tube is negligible). Here is the article written by AEM chief engineer
k.j. , who said anything about wood? MY SYSTEM IS REVOLUTIONARY!!! made from the finist most bestist materials unknown to man!!!hold on a sec. gettin a call from goofygoo . whats that ...you found the perfect material... boys production has begun!!! yippee!!! and an average hp gain of .... what, thats astounding...it cant be....check the #'s again.... this is unbelievable, JLT,C&L,JTI lookout the #'s are off the chart...(static)....say again over....(static)....sorry guys when i get back in contact with goofygoo ill relay the hp gains to you . you will not be dissapointed YES YES YES!!! WE HAV A WINNER!!!vynle.
he just made a system of materials he believes will get the coolest posible air to those parts!
Belief is ok if we were discussing religion, but test data is the bottom line in this matter.
The following is an excerpt from a post by a C&L employee:
"In 1995 I purchased one of the very first Dynojet automotive dynos, and since then, I have tested many, many, MANY different vehicles, even on lots of other people's dynos.
At wide open throttle, the speed of the air traveling through the pipe is so great and the amount of the friction between the air going through the pipe and the inner wall of the tube is so minimal, that you can not measure any difference in dyno testing between inlet pipes made of different materials.
Long story short, on a naturally aspirated engine, you can run your filter exposed with the hood shut and a metal/aluminum intake pipe and not find any less conclusive horsepower on the dyno than you will generate with the filter mounted outside of the engine bay with plastic or rubber plumbing. This has always been what I have seen in many dyno tests, and I hear the same thing on a regular basis from every reputable business that we deal with who shares their results with us."
In dyno tests!! And that's with a dyno cell fan blowing constantly.
What about in heavy summer traffic, staging at the track, etc..
Are you going to be driving @ WOT and on a dyno...or in more 'real world' everday conditions???
Look at the endorsement on my '96-04 GT painted systems page' (on top menu) from actual track, read: everday world, driving conditions. It's the endorsement at the top of this page. +.3 "no heat soak".
An example of a variable that comes into play in everday driving: once a metal component heat soaks it's not going to cool since it's a conductor while the motor is running. (not of course including cooling system components)
ANY airflow through a plastic will MAINTAIN a lower temp with the differences in heat soak being an insulator and the thickness.
For a metal system to be slightly more than 1/4" thick think what the weight would be?
For a plastic system to be slightly more than 1/4" thick, as my 05' is, the weight here, including shield is under 5 lbs.
There are other advantages to plastics beside heat.
Some of this stuff is really simple logic
I have a choice. I could produce systems in metal FAR CHEAPER than carbon fiber, poly,, labor, etc.. but it wouldn't be as good a product for 'everday driving'.
What's really interesting about that C&L dyno post is that I have WON more than one shootout (documented, independant, reputable) with the biggest gains attained with the filter outside the engine bay. Certainly a contradiction to what's stated in the posts' article.
Last edited by JP DeMolet; 11-28-2005 at 02:59 PM.
Unless the inlet air's path to the filter is physically and completely isolated from the heated air of the engine compartment, then either slow or no car motion(driving in heavy summer traffic, staging at the track, etc.) will cause a lot of the engine compartment's heated air to be ingested, and the effect of this on hp is far more significant than the temperature of the CAI. And while the heat shields supplied by your company and others provide some degree of physical isolation, they do not completely separate the cooler inlet air from the hot engine compartment air. A simple data logging test will prove this. Drive the car until the engine reaches normal operating temperature, park it, turn it off, come back in 10 minutes, connect the tuner, start the engine, and start data logging the inlet air temperature. The IAT will only slowly decrease with the car motionless, even at higher rpm's. Drive the car, and the IAT will decrease faster. But open the hood(car is obviously motionless), and the IAT will nosedive. This shows that hot engine compartment air enters the area of the air filter(remember, hot air rises) if the car is motionless or moving slowly, and that cooler air gets forced at a faster rate into the area of the air filter once the car's speed increases. But the largest temperature drop rate is when the hood is opened, because now the cooler air above the filter is denser than the hot engine compartment air below, and it forces its way into the air filter by simple gravitational force. And this occurs even with everything under the hood hot to the touch. I suppose I could install the air filter thru a hole in the wheel well, but I'm not willing to find out if my car's engine can run on water if I drive in the rain, or thru a deep puddle.
"Look at the endorsement on my '96-04 GT painted systems page' (on top menu) from actual track, read: everday world, driving conditions. It's the endorsement at the top of this page. +.3 "no heat soak". To quote from one of my previous posts, after a hard run my C&L intake was just slightly warm to the touch.
"once a metal component heat soaks it's not going to cool since it's a conductor while the motor is running.
ANY airflow through a plastic will MAINTAIN a lower temp with the differences in heat soak being an insulator and the thickness." To quote from another of my previous posts, the plastic intake manifold was hotter than the aluminum intake after a heat soak on my car.
I was able to lift the aluminum C&L intake with one hand. Hardly what can be considered a significant weight penalty. In fact, the entire C&L assembly weighed less than the stock intake.
Gotta go to work... will go through this later today or tomali.
John, we got the intake, looks AWESOME! They might get it on today and tune dyno tonight... I'll be outa town with work until Wednesday but will try to get some numbers from Ken later today or tomorrow morning... and I will of course let you know how it drives Wednesday!
Headers are on and sounds GREAT!
__________________
KJ, poorer but happier
Thanks to: Modular Depot Fox Lake Racing Tunable Induction Power House 411 Sun Coast Creations
That is a broad, bold, and not true staement! And you know it!
And again I'd like to point to the affect of the smoother walls inside most non metallic tubes, regarding friction for the speed, temp, and turbulense of the air... and volume again (it has however been proven that volume is not key on slightly modded cars...)
With a 3.5" diameter tube the air will flow at 6000ft/min or 100ft/sec meaning that a molecule of air will be in a 12" long intake path for exactly 1/100th of a second. Not enough time for it to heat up. As far as a smoother tube being better, why does a dimpled golf ball go further?
__________________
05 White GT Premium 5 Sp. IUP, Active Alarm
BMR, C&L, Centerforce, Fidanza, FRPP, GI Joe, JBA, JDM Engineering, LPW, Saleen, SCT, Steeda, SOS
Aluminum vs. Steel vs. Plastic Explained By John Concialdi, AEM Chief Engineer
5/28/2003
Aluminum vs. Steel vs. Plastic
The issue of heat absorption with an intake system has a degree of validity, however we have found that too much emphasis is placed on material selection, instead of the real issue of tuning the system. Our systems feature a unique shape and diameter because this is what we found to make the most useable torque and horsepower for each individual application in testing. However, for the purposes of this discussion, we will limit it to why we choose to make our systems from aluminum and the effects of heat absorption on all materials. If you do not wish to review all of this information right now, a quick synopsis of this discussion is outlined in the following bullet points, with complete topic discussions below:
We use aluminum to eliminate any chance of the system rusting, and it's lighter than steel
We limit our use of plastic because this material absorbs some of the sound energy we work to create in the inlet duct
Whether or not an inlet system is made from aluminum, steel or plastic, the thermal conductivity of the duct material has little effect on engine power
The rate at which air travels through the inlet path under open throttle, when one is asking the engine for maximum power, negates the effect of material heat soak, regardless of the material
We use aluminum—or a combination of aluminum and plastic plenums for throttle-body-injected applications that require a special plenum—for every intake we produce. This eliminates any chance of rust occurring on the inside of the inlet pipe. We have seen chrome-plated steel systems whose inner diameter became rusted over time, causing flakes of rust to travel along the inlet path. We also choose aluminum because of its lightweight properties. Heavier components place higher loads on the brackets they are attached to—or even worse, to the pipes they are attached to. We combine our lightweight aluminum design with a flexible coupling device we call a soft mount that connects the intake system to the body of the vehicle. In addition to the soft mount, we use doublers at the point where the mounting bracket is welded to the pipe for additional strength.
We limit our use of plastic because this material absorbs some of the sound energy we work to create in the inlet duct. Although we use the best plastic material for our plenums, it is still not as resilient and does not retain the visual appeal of aluminum over long-term use. Because we have to use plastic on throttle body applications, we take extra precautions to ensure that the aluminum retaining ring that attaches to the throttle body is anchored securely into the plastic plenum; this is done by making an interlocking mechanical link between the plastic and aluminum.
Whether or not an inlet system is made from aluminum, steel, or plastic, the thermal conductivity of the duct material has little effect on engine power. We have found that the tuning of the pipe, in addition to providing the coolest inlet air source, are the keys to making useable power. We perform engine inlet-air-temp studies when developing each application to determine the coolest location for sourcing inlet air. In addition to this, we determine the safest location for the inlet source to protect it from highly dusty conditions and water. To this end, we provide a stainless-steel heat shield to help minimize heat soak into the inlet area, as well as to provide protection from dust, dirt and mud.
At light throttle opening, air speed and airflow at the inlet system are relatively low. The high residence time of air in the inlet while at low-throttle settings will increase inlet charge temps when materials with high thermal conductivity are used. Typically, when someone is at light throttle they are not asking the engine to make power. Most likely, fuel economy is the issue.
When the throttle is fully opened however, air speed and airflow increase considerably. Typically, the inlet air speed of a 5.7L engine with a four-inch duct at full throttle is 34 feet-per-second, based on a volumetric efficiency of 70% and an engine speed of 3,000 rpm. Most inlet systems for every intake manufacturer for this engine are 30 inches or less. This means that the air in the duct of a 30-inch inlet length on this engine at the given rpm is 1/10th of a second—hardly enough time to transfer an appreciable amount of heat into the air stream on any system.
Basically, the rate at which air travels through the inlet path under open throttle, when one is asking the engine for maximum power, negates the effect of material heat soak, regardless of the material. We hope that this helps to clear up the issues of material heat absorption in intake systems. Thank you for taking the time to read this, we welcome your comments and feedback!
__________________
~
Redfire 2005 V6 5-speed auto. 10 psi after-cooled Vortech tuned by FAST Specialties, JBA headers and duals with custom H-pipe, GT rear bumper, Motive 3.73 gears, Auburn limited slip differential, CHE upper and lower control arms, American Racing Casino chrome wheels, Pirelli P-zero Nero 235/55/17 tires, chrome license plate frames (um... is that a mod?). Best 1/4 mile: 13.383 @ 102.84 MPH
Aluminum vs. Steel vs. Plastic Explained By John Concialdi, AEM Chief Engineer
5/28/2003
Aluminum vs. Steel vs. Plastic
The issue of heat absorption with an intake system has a degree of validity, however we have found that too much emphasis is placed on material selection, instead of the real issue of tuning the system. Our systems feature a unique shape and diameter because this is what we found to make the most useable torque and horsepower for each individual application in testing. However, for the purposes of this discussion, we will limit it to why we choose to make our systems from aluminum and the effects of heat absorption on all materials. If you do not wish to review all of this information right now, a quick synopsis of this discussion is outlined in the following bullet points, with complete topic discussions below:
We use aluminum to eliminate any chance of the system rusting, and it's lighter than steel
We limit our use of plastic because this material absorbs some of the sound energy we work to create in the inlet duct
Whether or not an inlet system is made from aluminum, steel or plastic, the thermal conductivity of the duct material has little effect on engine power
The rate at which air travels through the inlet path under open throttle, when one is asking the engine for maximum power, negates the effect of material heat soak, regardless of the material
We use aluminum—or a combination of aluminum and plastic plenums for throttle-body-injected applications that require a special plenum—for every intake we produce. This eliminates any chance of rust occurring on the inside of the inlet pipe. We have seen chrome-plated steel systems whose inner diameter became rusted over time, causing flakes of rust to travel along the inlet path. We also choose aluminum because of its lightweight properties. Heavier components place higher loads on the brackets they are attached to—or even worse, to the pipes they are attached to. We combine our lightweight aluminum design with a flexible coupling device we call a soft mount that connects the intake system to the body of the vehicle. In addition to the soft mount, we use doublers at the point where the mounting bracket is welded to the pipe for additional strength.
We limit our use of plastic because this material absorbs some of the sound energy we work to create in the inlet duct. Although we use the best plastic material for our plenums, it is still not as resilient and does not retain the visual appeal of aluminum over long-term use. Because we have to use plastic on throttle body applications, we take extra precautions to ensure that the aluminum retaining ring that attaches to the throttle body is anchored securely into the plastic plenum; this is done by making an interlocking mechanical link between the plastic and aluminum.
Whether or not an inlet system is made from aluminum, steel, or plastic, the thermal conductivity of the duct material has little effect on engine power. We have found that the tuning of the pipe, in addition to providing the coolest inlet air source, are the keys to making useable power. We perform engine inlet-air-temp studies when developing each application to determine the coolest location for sourcing inlet air. In addition to this, we determine the safest location for the inlet source to protect it from highly dusty conditions and water. To this end, we provide a stainless-steel heat shield to help minimize heat soak into the inlet area, as well as to provide protection from dust, dirt and mud.
At light throttle opening, air speed and airflow at the inlet system are relatively low. The high residence time of air in the inlet while at low-throttle settings will increase inlet charge temps when materials with high thermal conductivity are used. Typically, when someone is at light throttle they are not asking the engine to make power. Most likely, fuel economy is the issue.
When the throttle is fully opened however, air speed and airflow increase considerably. Typically, the inlet air speed of a 5.7L engine with a four-inch duct at full throttle is 34 feet-per-second, based on a volumetric efficiency of 70% and an engine speed of 3,000 rpm. Most inlet systems for every intake manufacturer for this engine are 30 inches or less. This means that the air in the duct of a 30-inch inlet length on this engine at the given rpm is 1/10th of a second—hardly enough time to transfer an appreciable amount of heat into the air stream on any system.
Basically, the rate at which air travels through the inlet path under open throttle, when one is asking the engine for maximum power, negates the effect of material heat soak, regardless of the material. We hope that this helps to clear up the issues of material heat absorption in intake systems. Thank you for taking the time to read this, we welcome your comments and feedback!
__________________
~
Redfire 2005 V6 5-speed auto. 10 psi after-cooled Vortech tuned by FAST Specialties, JBA headers and duals with custom H-pipe, GT rear bumper, Motive 3.73 gears, Auburn limited slip differential, CHE upper and lower control arms, American Racing Casino chrome wheels, Pirelli P-zero Nero 235/55/17 tires, chrome license plate frames (um... is that a mod?). Best 1/4 mile: 13.383 @ 102.84 MPH
~
Redfire 2005 V6 5-speed auto. 10 psi after-cooled Vortech tuned by FAST Specialties, JBA headers and duals with custom H-pipe, GT rear bumper, Motive 3.73 gears, Auburn limited slip differential, CHE upper and lower control arms, American Racing Casino chrome wheels, Pirelli P-zero Nero 235/55/17 tires, chrome license plate frames (um... is that a mod?). Best 1/4 mile: 13.383 @ 102.84 MPH
