For a metal system to be slightly more than 1/4" thick think what the weight would be?
There is no need for an aluminum or "metal" system to be 1/4" thick since it's strength is far superior than that of ABS.
The other problem with ABS is it's lack of resistance to chemicals such as gasoline.
"Gasoline is a mixture of petroleum hydrocarbons containing straight, branched, and cycloalkanes, which contain 5 to 18 carbons, olefins (alkenes), and aromatic hydrocarbons, including benzene, toluene, and xylenes.Gasoline vapors contain about 90% alkanes and 2% aromatics (0.9% benzene)."
I am with Thump_rrr. Like him I have been bitin' my tongue while this product is boasted by its seller.... Bad thing going on here I think.
I bought the C&L for both my GT's. They just plain LOOK the best in my view. And as Thump_rrr has shown it is no worse/better for its construction than another CAI and the C&L just plain looks like a profession piece of gear under a hood.
I get real turned off when I see JP has hit many boards with his product. Here he is on the AFM now as well....Even listing his phone numbers for KJ when a Private Message would "look" better to those of us who are suspect of his purpose here as well.
There, I am in this pile of marketing crap now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thump_rrr
I'll take the look of the C&L any day over any other CAI
There is no need for an aluminum or "metal" system to be 1/4" thick since it's strength is far superior than that of ABS.
The other problem with ABS is it's lack of resistance to chemicals such as gasoline.
"Gasoline is a mixture of petroleum hydrocarbons containing straight, branched, and cycloalkanes, which contain 5 to 18 carbons, olefins (alkenes), and aromatic hydrocarbons, including benzene, toluene, and xylenes.Gasoline vapors contain about 90% alkanes and 2% aromatics (0.9% benzene)."
This stuff was posted along time ago by me when I first got my C&L CAI, search it. The METAL C&L cast aluminum intake will get "warm" under the hood, no question. So will your ENTIRE ALUMINUM ENGINE! The "cold air" moving through the snorkel will be at such a rate that it will never have time to effect the highest flow of the center mass of air (parabolic flow profile). The boundary layer air (in contact with the metal) will still be at such air speed albeit slower than the majority of flow, that it will be negligible as to how much heat transfer can occur at speed.
Kids, focus on your air filter and it's ambient air temps, this is MUCH more of a factor as to how your performance will be efffected. The big SHEILD debate is over. Many posted in the past this is not important while us C&L guys knew better. Read the a.m. article, it specifically calls for a shrouded filter. Lawl.
The results have the METAL C&L as good as any other top result. Remember...the 5 rwhp margin of ERROR?!?
Honestly, if you don't like the C&L METAL snorkel, do not buy it, simple but, please no more woofin' on the efficiency of this setup especially when splitting 1/2 a rwhp over it, Lawllercaust!
Oh and it was originally made METAL to allow the NOS guys a tappable material for nozzles, this is why the C&L "racers" unit is no juice application. Not some "new found revelation" in materials.
Finally, I wouldn't call plastic an "insulator" as regarding temperature applications in high heat, sure as in electrical usage but temps? I think ceramics have that genre on lockdown.
thump_rrr, nice motor picture. I lub the look, newbs ask if it is a SC, lewel.
__________________
C&L CAI with MAF, Steeda UP's, FR 4.10's, Predator "C&L-MAF" Tune, Borla 3" tip catbacks, Kooks LT/ Catted X-pipe, Nitto 255/45/18(F) 285/40/18(R), Steeda Springs, Tri-Ax, Adj Pan Hard, Camber plates, Cowel Hood, Tokico Adj Dampers.
dyno; 315 RWHP/ 320 RWTQ
If that was true then why do people who ice down their intakes get results from doing it at a dragstrip?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thump_rrr
With a 3.5" diameter tube the air will flow at 6000ft/min or 100ft/sec meaning that a molecule of air will be in a 12" long intake path for exactly 1/100th of a second. Not enough time for it to heat up.
Some people also ice their intake manifold. Putting bags of ice in your upper engine compartment will alleviate some of the entire engine's heat soak. Airplane trolleys used to have the top drawers filled with ice to cool the entire trolley.
After many 1/4 runs on a 100 degree tarmac, you're still sucking in hot air and not getting top performance. Bags of ice can't hurt, whether plastic or metal parts are overheated. For that matter, the cast aluminum will cool with ice bags faster than the plastic, cuz the "plastic is such a good insulator".
__________________
C&L CAI with MAF, Steeda UP's, FR 4.10's, Predator "C&L-MAF" Tune, Borla 3" tip catbacks, Kooks LT/ Catted X-pipe, Nitto 255/45/18(F) 285/40/18(R), Steeda Springs, Tri-Ax, Adj Pan Hard, Camber plates, Cowel Hood, Tokico Adj Dampers.
dyno; 315 RWHP/ 320 RWTQ
I guess we must agree to disagree! I'll let you think your smaller filter 'behind' a smaller less 'protective' shield will suck more and cooler air through your smaller, rougher, and hotter intake, creating more power as it hit the TB/Manifold/Valves; hotter, in less volume, in less velocity, with less oxygen, and disturbed (turbulent)!
That's that, that's it, thread is done!
PS. Dimlpess on a golf ball are to create turbulence to lessen the dragg (build a bubble around the golfball)! But turbulence is also drag to an airstream (vectoring effect of air zig-zagging, moving as fast but sideways, NOT covering the distance)! Com'N you know I'm a golfer AND an airline pilot!!!
PS2... looks... not my consern but I happend to like the carbon fiber...
__________________
KJ, poorer but happier
Thanks to: Modular Depot Fox Lake Racing Tunable Induction Power House 411 Sun Coast Creations
I guess we must agree to disagree! I'll let you think your smaller filter 'behind' a smaller less 'protective' shield will suck more and cooler air through your smaller, rougher, and hotter intake, creating more power as it hit the TB/Manifold/Valves; hotter, in less volume, in less velocity, with less oxygen, and disturbed (turbulent)!
That's that, that's it, thread is done!
PS. Dimlpess on a golf ball are to create turbulence to lessen the dragg (build a bubble around the golfball)! But turbulence is also drag to an airstream (vectoring effect of air zig-zagging, moving as fast but sideways, NOT covering the distance)! Com'N you know I'm a golfer AND an airline pilot!!!
PS2... looks... not my consern but I happend to like the carbon fiber...
AW C'mon KJ,
We still need to fill 3 more pages to catch up to the "Hate those Airbag warning decals?" thread
You made a couple of mistakes in your statement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kj_cinci
I guess we must agree to disagree! I'll let you think your smaller filter 'behind' a smaller less 'protective' shield will suck more and cooler air through your smaller, rougher, and hotter intake, creating more power as it hit the TB/Manifold/Valves; hotter, in less volume, in less velocity, with less oxygen, and disturbed (turbulent)!
1)The volume of air required to fill the cylinders is actually fixed since the engine displacement, valve lift and duration is identical in both cases. It's only the density of the air that would change if it's an intake temperature issue we're discussing.
2)You said "through your smaller, rougher, and hotter intake.......in less velocity"
If the intake is smaller the velocity would be greater since the volume of air the engine requires is the same.
3) looking at the picture of the filter on his website the filter looks smaller than the C&L.
It defineitly has less filter element if you compare the amount of pleats in each filter.
His shield has no bottom to it so his filter is less protected.
I respect anyones opinion and feel everyone has the right to buy whichever material they prefer.
But even in the AEM tech article he states: at smaller throttle openings, materials that will soak heat will make a difference. (I know I'm not quoting it exactly) This should be the biggest indicator of the envirornment you'll be using the car in.
When I was refering to the thickness differences I didn't explain the analogy I was making well enough: You can go thicker and thicker with an insulative material while not adding appreciable weight. There's no need to go thicker with metal not being an insulative material, but comparing this aspect there would be appreciable weight gains. The thicker the intake charge is insulated, the better.
The intake charge is the most important consideration. BLANKET the charge as thick as possible with insulative materials that also achieve a cosmetic appearance (carbon fiber). I hand wax the inner ABS tube with Eagle One nano wax to fill in imperfections and use this wax on my Mustang and have seen how well it fills scratches and it lasts a long time with direct envirornmental exposures.
AEM & C&L: Both companies produce metal intakes. They're not going to be proponents of plastic.
Anyone who believes they're metal system isn't going to get hot in 'EVERYDAY' exposure conditions.....That's fine I respect that.
But if the fact that we KNOW the plastics are going to stay cool just may be a viable advantage then don't simply discount this.
I was so glad to see the shielding question answered by the shootout article.
Here again there are different qualities of plastics. The poly shield will STAY true to form for the long haul, while nicely blocking off the filter area corner and not restrict the CFM flow. Suspending the TB pipe above the radiator hose. I used the poly wedge on the TB pipe, flat, to further reflect heat away from the TB pipe. It may look like a small insignificant thing, but not to me in everyday driving.
The GT ENGINE COMPARTMENT IS AN OVEN IN THE SUMMER MONTHS.
There is no arguing this. You're going to be in traffic and most of the time NOT using WOT throttle positions. ALL systems are going pass some intake temp increases, but the plastic will COOL much quicker when you leave the traffic and punch it up for a workout. The cooling edge here wil show up.
It takes a lot of time to produce the TB pipes the way we do. You have to do them by hand with the way we make them.
They aren't just one layer of plastic, they are composite with 4 different materials.
I've got an addition coming to the system which should be interesting but I haven't tested it yet and won't elaborate until I see concrete data.
If high tech materials, lighter weight, and proven tuning and dyno gains backed with a lifetime warranty don't entice a potential customer, That's fine because there are several really good systems available.
I would be remiss to my family and employees NOT to point out differences that MAY show up in the most important envirornment we'll all be using our BELOVED MUSTANGS in 'Everyday Driving'.
from the picture of thump_rrr's c&l wieght 6pounds 14oz ,seems to me that if c&l had went with an openended filter thier hp gains would hav been better in the shootout. also in regards to the filter box issue im not sure having the bottom covered is a good thing, seeing as how this would limit the amount of air the filter could get, as well as it wouldnt protect the filter from injesting hot air seeing as how the hot air would be at the top of the filterbox and hood.seems to me it could be more of a restriction if anything. the bottom would be the only place the filter could actually get the colder air, as well as from the front side .vynle.
Green did not produce a dual-cone in the 9" L, 4" neck diameter at the time of the shootout. But they were quick and eager to work with me molding up one and this really surprised me as small a company as I am.
Their engineering related that there would be more CFM flow and that area where it can draw in outside air is perfect for a dual-cone.
Here again, in everyday driving, in motion, this advantage would be amplified but may not show advantageous on the dyno.
If you look at the pics on my site, I wanted to allow as much open area as is possible around the filter, not boxing it in possibly restricting CFM flow.
You CAN'T COMPARE pleats with a dual-cone against a closed end.
The dual cone inner cone adds appreciable CFM flow while enabling downsizing the outer diameter to allow more uniform air around the outer filter.
Then block off this area with a plastic that will go to much higher insulative temps with the Polycarbonate. I wouldn't even consider a metal shield.
Consideration of the filter neck diameter is very important also. I don't know what the neck diameter of the C&L filter is but I'm assuming, and I acknowlege i may be incorrect here, that C&L enlarged the neck diameter going to a 95mm meter, The size meter I had originally starting with the prototype.
Last edited by JP DeMolet; 11-29-2005 at 06:30 AM.
The bottom line is WE LOVE OUR MUSTANGS from my first in 67'!!
ALL the manufacturers strive to build good products.
But there are few that produce by hand, where the profit margin isn't the biggest consideration.
Rather than invest a ton of money in advertising I invest it in my systems.
It takes about an hour to build one TB pipe center section.
But these systems are a labor of LOVE!!
Last edited by JP DeMolet; 11-29-2005 at 06:45 AM.
from the picture of thump_rrr's c&l wieght 6pounds 14oz ,seems to me that if c&l had went with an openended filter thier hp gains would hav been better in the shootout. also in regards to the filter box issue im not sure having the bottom covered is a good thing, seeing as how this would limit the amount of air the filter could get, as well as it wouldnt protect the filter from injesting hot air seeing as how the hot air would be at the top of the filterbox and hood.seems to me it could be more of a restriction if anything. the bottom would be the only place the filter could actually get the colder air, as well as from the front side .vynle.
Here are a couple of pics to show you what I'm talking about when I say the bottom is closed.
As you can see without the shield the area between the radiator hose and the filter is exposed.
In this picture with the shield in place you can see that the air will be pulled up through the openings below and not from the area surrounding the radiator hose which also has the hot air being expelled from the radiator fan. You can also see the large bulb type gasket C&L uses on the top of the shroud for a positive seal against the hood.
john i hav another question for you .the maf housing and intake pipe are plastic and carbon respectively. the actual elbow piece that connects to the TB is made of rubber , right? would not this piece hav considerable heat soak issues? the actual carbon fiber tube area is limited to a foot or less . would it not hav been better to actually mold a carbon fiber piece from the MAF to the TB. (i.e. c&l intake.) i understand cost would be considerably more but in regards to heat soak and carbon fiber insulating properties as well as asthetic looks ,this seems to me as being the most logical solution . one continuos piece. in my mind this would be awsome.all the qualities you hav stated could only hav been enhanced with this idea. no seems, as well as a very factory looking piece.thx ,look forward to your responce. vynle. p.s. thump_rrr, you the man !! what did you do go out and take it appart again. i love this forum. i can honestly say we are some of the most anal people on the planet. gotta love it !!!! kudos to you.vynle.
The # 10 & # 11 pics., 05' GT Install guide, are the best overall of the shield.
Note: edgeguards are also on lower area where the plastic edge could chafe the factory components. Also rubber meter gasket. No it doesn't come over as far as the C&L but the dual-cone offsets any advantage here.
I don't know how to post pics here from my site.
Vinyl:
I went to the manufacturer who produced my 03' Cobra carbon fiber underhood shield, and I also explain on the site about not going with a full CF molded tube. It would be a 'weaved' inner surface and not insulate as well or be as thick and smooth as the composite tube. It would have had to be 2 molds for the upper and lower half of the tube, then adhered together, and still wouldn't be smooth inside. I further looked into gelcoating first then the tube molds. It was really not feasable putting this idea into construction.
The rubber TB coupler is dense rubber but I felt that since the airflow is maintained coolest to this point that it would be splitting hairs for the advantage of the molded, gelcoated, CF tube, over the way I've done it.
I do want the system to be affordable and there are limits to certain manufacturing ideas when you go to put them into production.
Especailly when guys say: there is no difference in materials.
I love debating on the forums and my systems have greatly benefitted from the constructive criticizm.
I apologize if I've affended anyone coming on here to discuss my product.
And yes, I am supporting my family with this business and where the HELL else would I go but to you guys to gain info, especially on the new tuning aspects with the 05's, and let my fellow enthusiasts know what I build.
But I've got to get to work to get orders ready.
I'll check the forum later but have tried to answer all questions professionally and accurately.
Thanks you guys!
Let me know how the systems does...call the toll free #.
john in responce , your tube has a center made of abs plastic with the outside covered in carbon fiber. you still could hav made a continuos tube applying your same principals.. only rubber areas would be at clamps. no carbon on inside of tube. most if not all the heat with these systems would be closer to TB no?i.e. areas closest to engine. this design would allieviate the most heat transfer of all systems. im in the wrong buisness, lol. perhaps 1or 2 more hrs. in construction also. the ultimate system,john.vynleaka.devils advocate.
p.s. thump_rrr, you the man !! what did you do go out and take it appart again. i love this forum. i can honestly say we are some of the most anal people on the planet. gotta love it !!!! kudos to you.vynle.
