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5.0 coyote vs 4.6 engine feel

75K views 102 replies 28 participants last post by  Bullitt95 
#1 ·
This is a question for people that know more about cars than me.

I have an 2009 gt and love it. I've driven a 2014 GT and a 2015 GT and both times I was left underwhelmed.

I can't quite pit my finger on it. My 2009 screams when I get on it. The coyote is faster but seems soulless. Could it be the power band, the transmission, the sound of it. It just seems so controlled. I'm probably biased, but I want to love the 5.0.

What do you all think it might be? Does anyone know what I mean?
 
#2 ·
Did you drive a stick or automatic? Never driven any Mustang with an automatic but adaptive shifting and shift programming could make the car feel "tamer"

The 10-up cars supposedly have quieter interiors than the 05-09s and I think the factory exhaust on the 05-09s sounds far better than the exhaust on the 11-14s.

With the right exhaust the 5.0 sounds fantastic.
 
#7 ·
Well there is your problem. The auto coyote's are just terrible in stock form and really wake up with a tune on them not to mention the exhaust is way whisper quiet for my tastes.
 
#4 ·
Idk...my brothers 13 5.0 screams. It's so fast. It pulls and pulls. Of course I'm comparing to my 2V but I've driven some decent cars and the coyote is one of my favorites.
 
#5 ·
Love

This is a question for people that know more about cars than me. I have an 2009 gt and love it. What do you all think it might be? Does anyone know what I mean?
I think that you have answered your own question. It is called LOVE.

It is just like the guys who love their 289s so much that the 302 never seemed to hold a candle to it.

Auto part Engine Motor vehicle Automotive engine part Carburetor


Or the guys that still love their flathead V-8's even though they were replaced by overhead valves sixty something years ago.

Engine Auto part Motor vehicle Automotive engine part Vehicle


Drive what gives you joy. :smile:
 
#8 ·
The latest and greatest.

I'm just trying to figure out what it is that's different. I'd like to be interested in the latest and greatest in Mustangs.
Take a look at this article:
2011 Ford Mustang GT 5.0 Coyote Engine
"For The First Time Ever, The Mustang Gets Its Own V-8-And We Get The Inside Story On Its Birth"
See: https://www.circsource.com/store/Subscribe.html?magazineId=77&sourceCode=I9ABNR

It's kind of a shame because I know I'm not going to keep my 2009 forever.
You could. I drive a 1963 Ford to and from work everyday and enjoy every trip because I LOVE it. :smile:

Engine Auto part Automotive engine part Machine Automotive super charger part


But ..... I also have a 2016 Mustang GT and when I fire that car up it seems like the heavens open up.
 
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#10 ·
Auto 2016 GT

Interesting. So you think the auto coyotes suck but not the auto 4.6?
Yes, it is very quiet. Have you gotten yours to your liking soundwise? It's strange that they'd make the stock exhaust quiter engine to engine.
I never said that the automatic Coyotes suck. I have an automatic and think that it is glorious. It is instantly responsive, offers a choice of sport or comfort modes, and has an overdrive and a over-overdrive gear. It has torque converter lock up in all six gears and is a fantastic transmission.

The stock exhaust sounds good and I have no desire whatsoever to make it louder.

I have a base GT with the only option being the automatic transmission and in my opinion the car is magnificent as is and needs no other options or modifications,

With that being said, I also LOVE the two-speed Ford-O-Matic transmission in my 1963 Ford. It only shifts one time, but it drives perfectly well.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Manual transmissions



People who like manual transmissions say every automatic transmission is terrible. In my opinion, automatic transmissions have become increasingly advanced while manual transmissions are still ... manual transmissions. With a manual transmission you have to physically push the gear into place or nothing happens. I have had a car and a truck with manual transmissions in the past. I know how to drive a manual transmission. I personally get a kick out of the car shifting automatically and me not having to do it manually.

Vehicle Engine Car Scale model Aerospace engineering


Transmission: The 6-Speed SelectShift® 6R80E Automatic with grade assist ($1,195) is manufactured at the Livonia, Michigan transmission plant by UAW Local 182. The transmission weighs 215 lbs, 24 lbs more than the manual transmission, and has a torque capacity of 650 lb-ft, and has its own oil-to-air cooler. The GT automatic uses a redesigned torque converter (Part No. 7902) that is five pounds lighter than the 2014 equivalent, has a torque multiplication factor of 1.5, and a 2400 – 2700 rpm stall speed. The transmission is electronically controlled with torque converter lockup capability in all six gears. The transmission is “Filled for Life” with 12.1 quarts of low viscosity synthetic Mercon LV fluid. This transmission dip stick is located underneath the car on the transmission itself on the passenger side. The 6R80’s gear ratios, span and shift schedule have been optimized for better off-the-line performance and improved fuel economy. The double-overdrive gear also provides better fuel economy. The transmission has a low 1st gear and two overdrive gears, the highest of which is 0.69. The Drive (D) position provides the best fuel economy and a balanced combination of comfort and handling. Sport (S) increases throttle response selects gears more quickly and at higher engine speeds to provide additional lower gear operation, faster acceleration, and increased engine braking. The steering wheel is mounted with paddle shifters to allow the driver full control of shifts. A new active rev-matching feature makes downshifts more efficient, smoother and quicker.

As a point of trivia: The Ford 6R80E is based on the German ZF 6HP26 transmission and it is built by Ford under license to ZF Friedrichshafen. The ZF 6HP26 was introduced in the 2000 BMW X3 and was the first six-speed automatic transmission in a production passenger car. The ZF 6HP26 is currently installed in the Hyundai Genesis Coupe.
 
#13 ·
This is a question for people that know more about cars than me.

I have an 2009 gt and love it. I've driven a 2014 GT and a 2015 GT and both times I was left underwhelmed.

I can't quite pit my finger on it. My 2009 screams when I get on it. The coyote is faster but seems soulless. Could it be the power band, the transmission, the sound of it. It just seems so controlled. I'm probably biased, but I want to love the 5.0.
The 4.6 3V has the same firing order as the SBF Windsor engine and, as a result, sounds like an old school American muscle car.
The Coyote 5.0 has a different firing order and sounds like some of the modern European V8 muscle cars.
Each engine has different attributes but the Coyote 5.0 is the more popular engine swap into restomod vintage fastbacks simply because it comes out of the box with 400+hp and a 7000rpm redline.
The 4.6 3V is still a solid soulful engine that loves to sing its heart out, but 300+hp and a 6500rpm redline doesn't cut the mustard anymore. If you must have that retro-styled '05-'09 body style you may not care anyway. Just wait for the opportunity to buy a wrecked '11-'14 GT and grab all the juicy bits! :D
 
#15 ·
You'll have to cut your strut towers out of the S197 to squeeze a Coyote in there, won't you. Of course there are already a few running around out there like that. One I saw even has a (Arggghhh) '70's Camaro K member and double wishbone front end.

However, LMR did it to a SN95 Cobra, but it was a REAL tight fit.

I guess you can get the 5.0 in between the towers of a S197 if one fits in a SN95. At least you will have to throw away the A/C and buy a Real small and Real expensive power steering rig.
 
#14 · (Edited)
I took back my original post because I was completely wrong. Good thing I don't do internal engine work.:surprise:

The biggest difference in the sound is caused by the one large exhaust valve in the 4.6 as opposed to two small diameter exhaust valves in the 5.0.
 
#17 ·
Yeah, that's why I added the LMR Link stuff past that part. Although, getting rid of the struts and going to double wishbones is not a bad thing, just prohibitively expensive.
 
#18 ·
I can relate to the issue the OP had.

A year or so back I do what I always do.
Shameless test drive the new Mustang.
I did it in 2012, and last year for the S550.

Both times, even more in the IRS 2015 it felt very underwhelming.

I'm not knocking the 5.0, they are fast as all get out.
But it didn't "FEEL" right.

The 2012 felt (to me) like a Caddy. So smooth and soft. Speedo doesn't lie, it was going very fast.
The 2016 felt even softer.
Then I looked down 120.
The 3v always "feels" like I'm pulling Gs. Then you look down, oh...80.

But that was my take from my test drive.
It revs smooth, pulls nicely.
But didn't feel like it pulled "hard"

All three cars (mine, and the two testers) were manual.

I can't say I'm against the 5.0.
But I can say I'm against the IRS, 200lbs of gadgets, and have yet to see a factory wheel I liked.
But I'm looking around for a nicely priced wrecked 11-14.

I imagine a tune and a few tweaks like gears or something would make that engine feel like I think it should.
But until then, I'm quite content with my slower "bat out of hell" modded 4.6.

Not like I can even wind my 300 or so RWHP 4.6 out legally. Much less the big deep breathing 5.0.


My luck however. Is by time I get a 5.0 powerplant. They'll drop it just like they did us 4.6 guys.
 
#22 ·
I'm not knocking the 5.0, they are fast as all get out.
But it didn't "FEEL" right.

The 2012 felt (to me) like a Caddy. So smooth and soft. Speedo doesn't lie, it was going very fast.
The 2016 felt even softer.
Then I looked down 120.
The 3v always "feels" like I'm pulling Gs. Then you look down, oh...80.
Yeah, and therein lies the problem with the newer models; you can only have fun in them if you drive at insane speeds and risk getting multiple speeding tickets or jail time.
 
#20 ·
This thing is amazing when you let it rev above 4k rpm. I dont think soulless is a fair assessment.
 
#21 ·
That's fair, but below 3500K it is so quiet. With the way I drive I'd like to hear the "music" at lower RPM.

I've since read other threads and am beginning to appreciate how well regarded the 4.6 is soundwise. I've seen many coyote guys admit that they preferred the 4.6 sound.

I know I'm in the minority, but I probably value the sound as much as actual acceleration given the fact that you can't fully appreciate modern muscle/pony cars on the street.
 
#23 ·
I know the feeling you are talking about, I had a 1983 Capri RS it felt way faster than my 08 or the new 5.0 as for as pushing you back in your seat, can't explain why a 15 second 1/4 mile car feels so much faster, does anyone have an answer? Seems like this thread got off the track.
 
#24 ·
Maybe we need to look at the power curves. Maybe 4.6 had more under the curve at lower RPM's?
 
#26 ·
I drove several 5.0s when i was looking to buy a new mustang and i think i discovered a few of the reasons why people either felt underwhelmed, or that the car was souless, or wasnt as impressive as they had hoped.

I test drove the following vehicles:
2013 Green GT Automatic
2013 Green v6 Automatic
2012 Red and White GT Automatic
2014 Silver GT Automatic

I prefer automatics due to a past wrist injury to my right hand, tho coincidentally i bought a manual because i simply couldnt walk away from the deal i got.

Anyway, car 1 had good takeoff, but seemed to not top out, then i realized the sales guy had slipped the shifter to 2, thus limiting my speed. I pushed it up to D and he pulled it back to 2 and said "we need to leave this here". I replied, "then i need to leave this here with you", and we went back to the dealership and i left.

Car 2 was as to be expected, the sales guy spewed numbers from the brochure about power, but i think my 96 GT could have roasted it off the line, just by the feeling of it.

Car 3 was either a little different from Car 1, or i missed on noticing something on the shifter, the Sport Setting. Turned that on and told the sales guy i wasnt buying without testing, this sales guy aparently wasnt a puss like the other one, and just held on. WOW what a difference that little setting makes. 95 by the bottom of the short onramp, and before i even realized it we had passed 5 exits. Hammering into the gas at any speed it pulled like a rocket no matter where the RPM was. Completely different experience.

Car 4 was a repeat pretty much of Car 3 but this one felt a little lighter on steering which was nice. With the sport mode on, it was like driving Car 3, with upgrading steering.

Car 1 just wasnt like the others, i dont recall it having the sport option on the shifter, and no matter what i did, with the shifter where it was it would never come out of 2nd, so driving back to the dealership doing like 50 on the surface street at 4000 RPM as it refused to go to third, and the sales jerk made me leave the shifter alone.

I ended up getting a deal on a 2007 GT Deluxe, with a full shelby style paintjob and lots of extras and upgrades for less than half the cost of a 2011+ so i took that one and ive loved it ever since, a manual with 3.55 gears, aluminum driveshaft, and 255/50/R17s Takeoff is awsome.
 
#28 ·
Sport Setting

Car 3 was either a little different from Car 1, or i missed on noticing something on the shifter, the Sport Setting. WOW what a difference that little setting makes. 95 by the bottom of the short onramp, and before i even realized it we had passed 5 exits. Hammering into the gas at any speed it pulled like a rocket no matter where the RPM was. Completely different experience.
Yes, the Coyote V-8 works nicely with the six-speed 6R80E Automatic. This is a quote I saved from off the internet (I do not remember where from) of someone describing the "Sport Setting" on the transmission:

"This transmission really gives the car two distinct personalities and the distinction between the two is fantastic in my opinion. In Normal/Drive the car is quiet, comfortable, easily to putt around town in, and handles highway driving with ease. It provides decent gas mileage on longer cruises and again is very reserved. However once you shift it down in to "S" and use the Sport mode, the car comes alive like some sort of snarling monster. The car growls at you as you take the corners, or cruise through different speeds on back country roads. It "barks" at you when you slow down from 60 - 0 at a red light as the engine braking engages, almost as if the car is upset with you for stopping and always tries to keep the revs right near the sweet spot for optimum throttle response.”
 
#27 ·
It's funny how when the 5.0 vs 4.6 argument comes up we all have to defend our 4.6. Sorry, but the 5.0 is better engine, Ford wouldn't be using it instead of the 4.6 if it weren't. The 5.0 has the advantage in about everything except for sound, even then sound is preference.... But something is wrong with your ears if you think the 5.0 sounds better.... Just saying.

If you like the 05-09 body and don't mind being a little slower, it seem that the 4.6 is perfect for you. If you like the 05-09 body but just want moar power, put a blower on it and rape(i can say that right?) 5.0s. If you can't discipline yourself to save $5k for a supercharger but are always able to make the car payments on time, get a 5.0. If you want a 5.0 because you're human and feel like the 4.6 is now the red-headed stepchild, then get a 5.0. If you want power without modding, then get a 5.0 or a gt500. If you want a refined mustang, get a 5.0. If you get tired of people asking if it's a 5.0, then get a 5.0, because even with 4.6L emblems they still ask, trust me I know.

Just one man's opinion.:wink:
 
#29 ·
It's funny how when the 5.0 vs 4.6 argument comes up we all have to defend our 4.6. Sorry, but the 5.0 is better engine, Ford wouldn't be using it instead of the 4.6 if it weren't.
No doubt about it, the Coyote 5.0 is in a different league.
While a bolt-ons 4.6 is a very good motor and can match a pushrod 5.0 SBF with H/C/I, a Coyote 5.0 is a great motor right out of the box and becomes absolutely mind-blowing with some bolt-ons.
 
#34 ·
Even a power adder such as a supercharger, turbo, or nitrous kit could be considered a bolt-on. ;)
In fact any mod that can be installed without requiring fabrication or the use of special tools is technically a bolt-on, but we tend to reserve that term to describe external performance mods on an internally stock N/A engine.
 
#36 ·
My biggest sticking point with the 5.0 is the sound. I know they have a different firing order. The 5.0 HO and all the 4.6's had the same firing order, and that was always the one that made the sound that said "Mustang" to me. The 5.0 just sounds different, raspier. And it makes that weird "wub wub wub" sound at idle unless you have cams or a ghost cam tune, I dunno.

It is ridiculous how far they have come though. A friend of mine just got a '99 GT (traded for it straight up) with a Vortech on it, headers, and full exhaust. It had dyno sheets with it and dyno'ed 380 RWHP. I think you can get that much out of a Coyote with just a tune.
 
#38 · (Edited)
You can buy aftermarket heads/cams/intake manifold separately for the 4.6 3V and 4V Modular engines, but H/C/I is only offered as a kit (Trick Flow) for the 4.6 2V.
I think the reason is that the 4.6 3V and 4V engines are already pretty efficient with the stock items, and only need external bolt-ons to deliver 350+ crank HP and mid-12's performance. For many that's plenty enough for a fun drive. The aftermarket H/C/I for these engines is so expensive that the forced induction route is a more attractive option, offering much more bang for the buck with 500+ crank HP and the promise of mid-11's performance.
That'll keep a 4.6 3V ahead of a N/A Coyote 5.0 with bolt-ons, and some owners will find that a compelling enough reason to hang onto their '05-'10 GT.
 
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#42 ·
I didn't really see anyone say the 5.0 wasn't better or didn't outperform a 4.6 at all.

More along the lines of it's a tad soft "feeling" down low.
Numbers don't lie. But if it feels softer it simply FEELS softer. That could be the suspension, chassis, irs, whatever that car has as opposed to an 05-09.



Personally I think a 7k motor shouldn't come with 3.31s
That's what my tester was equipped with.

4.10s and full bolt ons, one can easily see why my 720-3k feels like a train in low gear.
As opposed to 3.31s and having to rev it out.

Up top is where any 4v modular shines. Since the 90s it's been like that.


But I'm not seeing anything of how a 4.6 is a better engine.

If 4.6s were so powerful and such. Mine probably wouldn't have near the mods.
The more I've done, the less and less it's become roadtrip friendly.
Loss of cruise, high highway rpms, stiff suspension, etc.

But any day of the week, (not defending the motor)
My car FEELS more raw than a 5.0 *in stock trim*

Heck, a bone stock 5.0 *89-93*
Drop the clutch, and it's a mess.
It just FEELS more raw.

One thing I will defend the 4.6 for.
Is long term reliability.
That's not to say the 5.0 isn't.
But until I see a few running well past 200k
Well the 4.6 is proven in that arena.

Haven't beaten one at the strip or back roads.
And more often they don't even have a tune.
Cold hard fact.

But I do agree with all the refining and big redline, regardless of actual dyno numbers.
It FEELS softer below 3k
And I think that was the entire point
"FEELS"




Time will tell on that front.
 
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#43 ·
Personally I think a 7k motor shouldn't come with 3.31s
That isn't an issue 'cause the MT82 has short intermediate gear ratios with the first five closely stacked.

But I do agree with all the refining and big redline, regardless of actual dyno numbers.
It FEELS softer below 3k
That was my impression too of the 2011 GT and it's borne out by the dyno numbers. Below 3000rpm the '05-'10 GT has a higher torque:weight ratio than the '11-'16 GT.
 
#45 ·
It's all about that firing order.

Something I've grown to love until recently.
A Ford v8 firing order has always been simple.
You know one, you know em all.

God I'm behind the times.
The new 5.0 is what, 5 years now?
 
#46 ·
Sometimes I wonder if the 05-10s will become the next 96-98 2v.

Granted these were raved about in 04-05.
Now...prices plummeted, and people look down on them.
Still look amazing though.
 
#48 ·
Prices of the '11-'14 GT have also plummeted since the S550 was launched. Here in the UAE you can get a '13 GT for just $17k, and this is a car that cost $42k new! An '06 GT like mine would cost less than $7k. It's a throwaway society where people are spoilt by the "need" to have the latest toy and the old one is considered disposable.
I don't think the '05-'09 GT will become the next red-headed stepchild like the '96-'98 2V because the retro styling will always look amazing, and the only ones looking down on them are hotrodders who've become spoilt by the ever-growing HP numbers of newer and porkier muscle cars.
Sadly the incidence of automotive obesity is rising as fast as human obesity, and our 3500lb cars will soon be considered lightweight in a world where 3800+lb behemoths are the average.
 
#50 ·
I'm very interested to see the 05-09s by time they turn 20.
By 15 years prices will level off and by 30 years, they'll gain classic status where prices will start to rise again. Clean, rust-free original V8 examples will fetch the highest prices when they become classics.
Bottom line; if you have one, keep it. If you don't but might want one as a future collectible, wait until they're 25-29 years old and buy one then.
 
#51 ·
I hope they don't lose sight of "feel" in the name of performance in the future. The regular mustang V8s were never really performance cars until the coyote. They were sporty, fun cars.

I'd like to see a return to the lighter weight, smaller Mustangs. I'd cap it at 3300 lbs and the length of the 65 or the 67 tops.
 
#53 ·
I'd like to see a return to the lighter weight, smaller Mustangs. I'd cap it at 3300 lbs and the length of the 65 or the 67 tops.
Unfortunately that will never happen due to today's safety regs and all the electronic doodads that come standard on every car now. Cars are bigger just because of the added safety features they have to have.

I still wonder...would it really kill Ford to slap an LX, GTS, or 248a esque package?

Manual, no fancy crap, cloth, no fogs, spoilers, bare essentials.

Drop some weight for the guys that just want a manual v8 mustang.
And that will never happen because it would be a very niche market...Ford now seems to be only catering standalone products like the GT350 toward that sort of niche market. Plus there's really no such thing as a "stripped" base model now as even the base models have standard features that were optional on most cars even 15 years ago.

Hell, it's been 21 years since the GTS was offered and they've really done nothing similar since then.
 
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