I'm looking to cool the intake charge on my ProCharged Coyote. What seems like the most bang for the buck (if it would work the way I would like it to) would be putting a 15HP shot (smallest jet I've found so far) in before the intercooler. Here's where it gets complicated, I would like to be able to use the nitrous at the track but not on the street and NOT have to flip tunes. I'm hoping that a small enough shot would allow for the use of a single tune.
That being said, my nitrous knowledge is limited. Is there a resource out there that might be able to shed some light on the situation.
I'm assuming this will be a dry shot? I would think a 15hp shot will not be enough to warrant a new tune assuming your MAF and/or injectors are not maxed out....
Yes, it would be a dry shot. The ProCharger kit came with larger injectors and I've added a fuel pump voltage booster but the MAF is stock, so I would assume they aren't maxed out but I don't have any numbers to support that. As for the IATs, I don't have any of those numbers either, I just know that even after the first pass at the track the head unit is almost too hot to touch, and the pipe between the intercooler and throttle body (which is either composite or aluminum) is much hotter than what seems conducive to making power.
I could get the IATs from my AeroForce multi-gauge but I'd have to figure out how to datalog with my SCT (and get the factory specs) to get the verdict on the injectors and MAF.
Well the car is most likely going away for the winter this Saturday so I guess I'll have to suspend the "official" research until Spring when I can get some numbers. It is dyno tuned, I asked my tuner about it and he wasn't sure without looking at the numbers. I didn't really press him on it because this isn't something I'm looking to do immediately. I understand nobody can give me anything definitive without numbers and my tuner is the best source, I just figured I'd see if there is a general nitrous resource/expert out there.
I may be able to get some IATs before I put it away this weekend, what would you consider an acceptable range?
I actually had a meth system on it initially but took it off because it bogged the car down on the dyno due to how close the instructions had me put the nozzle to the throttle body (about 12"). If I had thought about it more at the time I would have tried to reposition it before the intercooler, but I didn't and sold whole kit at a big loss. So I'm not exactly looking to jump back into the meth injection game, haha. That and from what I've heard nitrous is a more effective cooler.
Okay I'll keep that number in mind, but the forecast looks terrible for tomorrow so I most likely won't get any numbers until spring :frown:. Thank you for the input/info.
I did this back in the day on a non-intercooled blower application. I shot 20 dry into the airbox. It really helped the heat soak and I didn't modify the tune at all. 20 will be fine and you'll get a ton of passes in with a shot that small. If you have a stage one Procharger, the intercooler is a little marginal anyway. Stage 2 you're kind of wasting time with this, unless the boost is up really high.
Yeah it's a stage one, I think the intercooler is capable of better cooling but where they have you mount it (mostly blocked by the bumper) keeps it from doing it. That's why I would inject it before the intercooler, I'm thinking that the combination of the nitrous and it's effect on the alumimum intercooler will really help the IATs. I hope this can work, I'm not a fan of flipping tunes.
So I spent a lot of time on the phone Wednesday (AM, Zex, Sprint Booster, etc.), and it looks like this might work the way I'd prefer it to. I e-mailed my tuner with IAT and MAF questions so hopefully he'll confirm that. What I'm trying to figure out know is whether or not I can inject the nitrous ahead of the intercooler because of the MAF being located in the intercooler near the outlet. A lot of what I've read says to inject the nitrous after the MAF to prevent ruining it. If the nitrous remained in liquid form, or it was a wet shot, this would make sense to me, but I've also read that once it's injected into the intake it changed into a gas, which makes me think that it shouldn't have any negative effect on the MAF because it would have the volume of the intercooler to convert to gas and mix with the air charge. Being able to inject it ahead of the intercooler/MAF is kind of the deal breaker as it is beneficial for the cooling of the IAT but also the ability of the MAF to make adjustments to the cooler IATs, thus eliminating the need to flip tunes. Thoughts?
All nitrous is is a vehicle to carry more oxygen into the intake charge. The charge cooling effect is just due to the old principle that if you convert a liquid to a gas quickly, it'll supercool whatever it is you're doing that with. You are WAY overthinking this. You can fire 20 ahead of the cooler and change nothing in the tune and it'll help with HE efficiency.
The IC core on the PC1 is the issue, not the placement. Everybody puts the core behind the bumper, it's fine. What's wrong is the core is undersized for more flow and can't exchange the heat out well enough.
That does seem to be the consensus I'm getting, now I'm just trying to make sure that injecting the nitrous ahead of the MAF won't destroy it.
It's funny you mention the IC, my kit is an early one and is designed just like you state above, a small core mounted completely behind the bumper. At some point they updated/upgraded the IC in the newer version of my kit. It may not be any larger, but they went to a taller/narrower design that locates portions of the IC above and below the bumper in open air. I'm going to contact ProCharger this week to see what is involved in switching to the new design IC, where I can get the pieces, and at what cost (if it's directly through them).
You'll have to do some cutting to get the bigger IC in, that's fairly dramatic on the 11-12 bumper design and totally not needed on the 13-14. You can shoot nitrous ahead of the maf, it won't do anything to it; think of what's in nitrous, oxygen and nitrogen, same as the outside air. Ideally, to do what you want, you want to shoot it on the hot side somewhere between the comp outlet and the IC in. The more time you give for it to help cool the charge the more effective it'll be.
IC is where it's at with any form of FI on these cars. Spend money on a better IC and even a lower end package will shine. The IC is usually where the corners are cut on the cheaper kits and that's the worst place to pinch pennies on a car that's already heading for the octane wall on pump gas.
I'll check with ProcCharger to be sure but I don't think the IC I'm looking to go with is any bigger. I'm not looking to jump to the Stage 2 or Race IC, just to the updated basic HO intercooler, which by the looks of the pics I've seen and what I've read, shouldn't require any modifications. That's a good point though, I hadn't thought of the variances between the 11-12 and 13-14 front ends affecting fitment.
In regards to giving the nitrous more time to be effective, now I'm actually thinking of injecting it ahead of the compressor. There is already a port there (for the PCV that I deleted), the compressor is the heat source in the system anyways, and the nitrous would have plenty of time to be effective. Is that correct thinking?
I wouldn't do that, the comp wheel is spinning multi-thousand rpm and you risk thermal shock by hitting it with frigid nitrous....or a tiny bit of debris getting moved around in there and fragging it.
IC effectiveness isn't all about size. It's about thermal mass. That's why it doesn't matter as much where you place it. The airflow is a part of the puzzle but a bigger piece is the thermal mass of the unit, which means, how much heat can it take away from the charge and store in its own mass. This is why bigger brakes tend to work better, even if they use the same calipers and pads, because they can absorb more heat without going over temp and melting themselves.
Good call, didn't think of thermal shock to the head unit. I understand what you're saying about what makes an intercooler effective, I just figure if I can gain some from better airflow without spending a fortune and then add the nitrous, I'll really have something.
One thing that hasn't been discussed yet is whether or not you need to do this at all. If you are aiming at raising boost levels, encountering uncontrolled combustion or seeing a lot of KR in datalogs, I'd say there was a case to be made for this mod but, at your power level, I doubt that's an issue. You're even still ok on 93 octane. From the looks of your ET v. your mph, you got some work to do on the traction and/or 1/4 mile practice front, rather than the power front. Maybe get a slick tire on drag rims rather than this, for the trips to the strip; 3.73s and a blower are a tough combo to put to the ground.
This isn't a need by any means, I'm just looking to lower IATs, no other changes involving the engine (other than LT headers) are in the works. I do still have to get to the track next summer and log somes IATs to see where it's at/get a baseline, but I figure even if the IATs aren't bad to begin with, it would still help, cooler air means more power. Some of it is the fact the the car is put away for the winter which always triggers a desire to mod it.
You are 100% correct, my car would be significantly faster with a better driver, but I'm all it's got, haha. Those numbers are with cheater slicks and skinny fronts, which reveals even more of a down side to my driving ability, lol. From what my buddies have observed at the track it's a torque vs. weight issue. The wheel/tire/suspension setup that I run at the track allows the car to dead-hook all the way up to a 4,500 rpm launch but with a stock clutch/tranny, I'm not willing to try any higher. If it dead-hooks even at 4.5k the car bogs initially then recovers but by the time it does any hopes of a decent 60ft are gone, which is disappointing because it's a monster from there out. Next summer I plan to try some different launch techniques, either slipping the clutch in order to avoid shocking the system and bogging it down, or adding some pressure to the slicks to get them to spin a little.
To answer your question on nozzle placement before or after MAF. Since this a dry setup and you want the fuel to be added by the injectors it should be placed before the MAF so it read the denser cooler air. That will also depend on where your tuner wants the nozzle. He may want it after and he will add fuel via tune. If it is before, Be sure it's not right in front of the sensor. It needs to be some distance away.
I personally think a better IC is the better option here. OR meth injection.
How'd you learn so much on n2o? trial and error?
I didn't read the beginning but the last post the op made said he was just trying to lower the iat. OP, if you're not pinging now and if you don't plan on running more psi or timing then I'd say your iat's are good and nothing else needs to be upgraded. You could run meth but that's just another thing to have to keep an eye on and make sure stays full. Then tuner might be able to squeeze a few extra horses out of it with the colder air but I don't think it would be all that significant.
By and large, IAT2, (which is what matters here), aka BAT or Boost Air Temperature isn't as much of an issue on the centri blowers as it is on the PD blowers. If IAT2 is high, the ECM will radically retard timing to protect the engine, killing power. Centris don't heat soak like PD blowers can and they build power in a manner more in line with RPM so, it isn't as much of an issue. Again, you need to know what the engine is seeing to find out if there is any benefit from doing this.
I've shot hundreds of pounds of nitrous through many cars and bikes and there is nothing that matches it on a hot day at the strip in the summer. As the blower guys are throwing ice all over everything and running their fans all the time, I just kick back and relax, waiting for the next round.
I have heard that PD blowers heatsoak worse than centris, I can't imagine how hot that unit would be, I can't hardly touch mine (centri) after a pass at the track. If my tuner doesn't have any IATs logged I'll have see what they are when I get the car back out in the spring. Ditto on the cooling potential of nitrous, seems like the best bang for the buck.
The heat of the casing isn't a good indication of the heat of the charge air. I'd want the casing flaming hot, that's suggesting charge heat rejection through the aluminum of the casing. This is why IAT2 is generally measured just before the air hits the intake manifold. Why PD blowers heat soak is a function of two things, the fact they are sitting on top of a heat pump and the way a PD blower works, which is to introduce a fixed volume of air into the intake manifold, at all rpm. This is why modern style PD blowers have a vacuum bypass built in, to reduce the adiabatic heating in the system, because the intercooler can't reject enough heat fast enough. Old school Roots blowers, hot rod style don't have this and really struggle as the temps rise.
02_GT_5Spd, the cutting on the bumper is something I totally didn't even consider during our other exchange on the IC issue!
I was very fortunate that a good friend of mine, and engineer, did the Stage 2 on his 2012 BOSS 302 (with the help of another mutual friend who is an engineer!); they handled the install of my P-1SC-1 Stage 2 while I sat on the garage floor eating pizza and drinking beer! One of the things that got them slowed up on the 2012 BOSS 302 was reinstalling the bumper cover after putting on that Stage 2 IC. They had to hold it in place, then trim a little off, then hold it in place, then trim a little more off, then hold it in place...
...you get the idea.
When it came to my 2014 GT, the bumper cover just went right on!
If I were you, I'd consider looking for a stage 2 IC out there somewhere maybe used??? Or some other aftermarket options? For instance there is this: Mishimoto Universal Mustang Intercooler M Line MMINT-UM (79-17 All) - Free Shipping .
The thing is, I don't know what it'd take to get the piping sorted out to make it work with your ProCharger. And if I member correctly, the P1-SC-1 has the MAF installed into the outlet side of the IC; there is no provision for this with the linked IC (I think). So you'd have to figure out that with the piping.
And it looks like you're right; they did change the design of the new HO IC for your kit to a taller skinny IC.
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