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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-12-2019 Thread Starter
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Hey Guys! So I'm new to the forum,so don't roast me to bad! Ive got a 04 40th anniversary gt, and have a couple questions. So far ive removed the cats, added an accufab throttle body, anderson motorspot cams, and a bbk cold air intake. It came with a predator tuner back from like 05, but i dont know how to tune it so i havent messed with it. It is set for a 93 octane tune. It also has been straight piped from engine to back. No cats, no mufflers as well. Anyways. Im having alot of stall and sputtering out of my engine. Ill barely press gas, and it will jerk you forward and backwards. Also, ive had 2 spark plugs blow up in the engine and ive got some new ones rethreaded. My check engine light is on and it says i have a misfire on cylinder 1,3,5, and 8. I also have a misfire on the startup-(which i think the startup misfire is because of the cams.) Anyways, i have alot of questions i need answered:

-What is the best thing i can do to make sure my engine runs as smooth as butter, with the issues im having now? I already have bought motorspot platinum plugs to replace all sprak plugs, and some accel supercoil packs to replace factory with. The only other thing i can think of is a professional tune.

-What is the best tuner to buy, or a good place to go to get it tuned? Im located near lexington, ky.

-Should i put an h-pipe back on or an x-pipe, and which one delivers more HP?

Thanks so much guys! Look forward to the answers and feedback!

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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-12-2019
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In short, you have one of the most advanced ECM's made...… removal of the cats will gain no hp/tq


Here's a link to a "Real Test" that verifies....on a700+ hp engine......no gain or loss of with or without the cats!

http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Common/pdfs/header_cat_xpipe_exhaust_tests.pdf


The myth about high flow cats


http://www.catalyticconverter.org/news/news_page.cfm?Key=catalytic_converter-&News=89


I am assuming you removed the rear O2 sensors which are critical for the ecm software to provide effective engine management.
Production calibrations have an “inferredcatalyst temperature protection model” which constantly calculatesthe temperature in the hottest part of the hottest catalyst. This calculatedtemperature is based on many PCM parameters, such asengine speed, load, ingested air mass, time, inlet air temperature, EGR flowrate and many others.When the catalyst model calculates that the catalysttemperature is about to exceed a level that is safe for the catalyst (generallyaround 1650 deg F), the PCM will richen the A/F mixture as necessary to lowerthe exhaust gas temperature and cool the catalyst. This richened A/F ratio willdecrease power output, but is absolutely necessary to keep the catalyst frombeing permanently damaged and without the downstream sensors, the PCM caneasily, consistently and once too many times over or under richen the A/Fmix...making what a software engineer would call, "An erroneousconclusion"... Now I know you are thinking...I'm ok because I removed the cats..... not quite, as there is also a"model" within the softwarefor oxygen sensor protection and exhaust valve protection that when not takeninto account can cause internal damage to both the exhaust valves (ie"Tuliping over time- )resulting in catestrophic engine damage that any machinistcan explain this to you in greater detail and damage the remaining O2 sensors....and yes, this does pull HPaway from the engine only for component safeguarding......None of this happensimmediately.......


The accufab throttle body and cai are providing no benefit except for bling...which is ok, if that is what you want! The oem TB will flow everything that a close to stock engine can suck in plus about 10% over that...…. the only way you can exceed the oe cai & tb flow specs is IF your cams have increased the rpm of the engine by over 500 rpm or the engine has been bored & stroked significantly increasing the cid of the engine.


With regards to the cams, without the data screenshot and specific cam specs, we can assume one of two things...….either cams are far out of "spec' that the oem software cannot or has not been adjusted to, the "aftermarket tune" is incorrect or the cams are improperly installed (out of time) . At this point, IMHO, a real tech needs to do a full scan of the engine to see what is going on....the likely answer is hopefully just a custom tune using HP software, etc.....but worst case scenario is changing cams and reinstalling the cats.o2 sensors and oe TB/CAI.


BTW, just an fyi for any of the young/future hot rodders out there reading this who may get some ideas stirred.....with regards to "messing with the smog equipment"...
1. Even though you may be exempt from inspections, you are not exempt from therequirement to have them- Federal law
2. Any law enforcement officer (including fish & game), EPA inspector, etc.can impound the vehicle and cite it as a gross polluter
4. Once cited, a judge will decide if the vehicle is to be scrapped or returnedto the owner- and you do not have any opportunity to speak in court- justrequired to sit & listen.
5. If the vehicle is returned- guess what, now you have to repair and take thevehicle to a federal referee station for the rest of "its life" for asmog inspection & test.

IMHO, it's not worth the risk versus the little gain



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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-13-2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechkid View Post
In short, you have one of the most advanced ECM's made...… removal of the cats will gain no hp/tq


Here's a link to a "Real Test" that verifies....on a700+ hp engine......no gain or loss of with or without the cats!

http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Common/pdfs/header_cat_xpipe_exhaust_tests.pdf


The myth about high flow cats


http://www.catalyticconverter.org/news/news_page.cfm?Key=catalytic_converter-&News=89


I am assuming you removed the rear O2 sensors which are critical for the ecm software to provide effective engine management.
Production calibrations have an “inferredcatalyst temperature protection model” which constantly calculatesthe temperature in the hottest part of the hottest catalyst. This calculatedtemperature is based on many PCM parameters, such asengine speed, load, ingested air mass, time, inlet air temperature, EGR flowrate and many others.When the catalyst model calculates that the catalysttemperature is about to exceed a level that is safe for the catalyst (generallyaround 1650 deg F), the PCM will richen the A/F mixture as necessary to lowerthe exhaust gas temperature and cool the catalyst. This richened A/F ratio willdecrease power output, but is absolutely necessary to keep the catalyst frombeing permanently damaged and without the downstream sensors, the PCM caneasily, consistently and once too many times over or under richen the A/Fmix...making what a software engineer would call, "An erroneousconclusion"... Now I know you are thinking...I'm ok because I removed the cats..... not quite, as there is also a"model" within the softwarefor oxygen sensor protection and exhaust valve protection that when not takeninto account can cause internal damage to both the exhaust valves (ie"Tuliping over time- )resulting in catestrophic engine damage that any machinistcan explain this to you in greater detail and damage the remaining O2 sensors....and yes, this does pull HPaway from the engine only for component safeguarding......None of this happensimmediately.......


The accufab throttle body and cai are providing no benefit except for bling...which is ok, if that is what you want! The oem TB will flow everything that a close to stock engine can suck in plus about 10% over that...…. the only way you can exceed the oe cai & tb flow specs is IF your cams have increased the rpm of the engine by over 500 rpm or the engine has been bored & stroked significantly increasing the cid of the engine.


With regards to the cams, without the data screenshot and specific cam specs, we can assume one of two things...….either cams are far out of "spec' that the oem software cannot or has not been adjusted to, the "aftermarket tune" is incorrect or the cams are improperly installed (out of time) . At this point, IMHO, a real tech needs to do a full scan of the engine to see what is going on....the likely answer is hopefully just a custom tune using HP software, etc.....but worst case scenario is changing cams and reinstalling the cats.o2 sensors and oe TB/CAI.


BTW, just an fyi for any of the young/future hot rodders out there reading this who may get some ideas stirred.....with regards to "messing with the smog equipment"...
1. Even though you may be exempt from inspections, you are not exempt from therequirement to have them- Federal law
2. Any law enforcement officer (including fish & game), EPA inspector, etc.can impound the vehicle and cite it as a gross polluter
4. Once cited, a judge will decide if the vehicle is to be scrapped or returnedto the owner- and you do not have any opportunity to speak in court- justrequired to sit & listen.
5. If the vehicle is returned- guess what, now you have to repair and take thevehicle to a federal referee station for the rest of "its life" for asmog inspection & test.

IMHO, it's not worth the risk versus the little gain
Dude, quit telling people that the rear o2 sensors have any affect on drivability. They DO NOT make any changes to the "tune." They are READ ONLY. They just monitor and report back, that's all that's it. They don't make any changes what so ever. They were added to OBDII cars for emissions purposes to monitor the cats and emissions. That's it.

The front O2's do what you're thinking the rears do.
https://www.samarins.com/glossary/oxygen_sensor2.html

Last edited by 90lxwhite; 08-13-2019 at 03:47 PM.
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-13-2019
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Not having cats isn't causing your problems.
Has it ever ran right since you've owned it? The cams and tuner was on it/in it when you got it?
X-pipe, H-pipe, the power difference is negligible. The sound of the two will be a little different but you'll never feel the power difference.
Two spark plugs blew up?? What plugs were they? What do all the other plugs look like? Are they wet? Are the white? Black?
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-13-2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 90lxwhite View Post
Dude, quit telling people that the rear o2 sensors have any affect on drivability. They DO NOT make any changes to the "tune." They are READ ONLY. They just monitor and report back, that's all that's it. They don't make any changes what so ever. They were added to OBDII cars for emissions purposes to monitor the cats and emissions. That's it.

The front O2's do what you're thinking the rears do.
https://www.samarins.com/glossary/oxygen_sensor2.html

If they don't, then please, please rewrite all of the Ford MSE training manuals and please, please conduct formal training for Ford's software engineers who have spent the past decade developing the "modeling" that the software uses...it compares the front and rear O2 inputs...…...and if you would really like, I still have the FRP published document on this...………………. I appreciate that what you are saying is correct but the ecm software uses that information in multiple modeling scenarios to determine A/F mixture, ignition timing, etc.

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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-13-2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechkid View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 90lxwhite View Post
Dude, quit telling people that the rear o2 sensors have any affect on drivability. They DO NOT make any changes to the "tune." They are READ ONLY. They just monitor and report back, that's all that's it. They don't make any changes what so ever. They were added to OBDII cars for emissions purposes to monitor the cats and emissions. That's it.

The front O2's do what you're thinking the rears do.
https://www.samarins.com/glossary/oxygen_sensor2.html

If they don't, then please, please rewrite all of the Ford MSE training manuals and please, please conduct formal training for Ford's software engineers who have spent the past decade developing the "modeling" that the software uses...it compares the front and rear O2 inputs...…...and if you would really like, I still have the FRP published document on this...………………. I appreciate that what you are saying is correct but the ecm software uses that information in multiple modeling scenarios to determine A/F mixture, ignition timing, etc.
I’d like to see those documents please.
It’s a monitor only my friend. If ones car is running bad and they get a code for a rear o2 sensor their car will NOT run any better with a new sensor. Something upstream from the sensor caused an increase in emissions and the rear o2 sensor is reporting this. Something such as misfire could have caused rear o2 code, but replacing the rear o2 won’t fix the misfire. Why? Because it’s just a hall monitor..
Physically the front and rear are the same exact o2. They’re both the same ole narrow band o2, the harnesses are different lengths is all. But what the ecu does different things with the voltage it sees in each location. The front o2 uses voltage so the ecu can do its thing with the a/f mixture. The rears are there to see if the voltage is the same after the cat. If it is different then all is well. If it’s the same the light will come on and say “hey the volts are the same for some reason.”
You’re right through the front and rear do compare inputs but that’s all the downstreams do is compare.
If the a/f is off the rear o2 can’t do anything about it, but it’ll let you know something’s awry.

https://itstillruns.com/differences-...s-7383479.html

https://www.aa1car.com/library/o2sensor.htm

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Last edited by 90lxwhite; 08-14-2019 at 02:35 PM.
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019
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Just go to Ford Racing......they have about 12 publications on their website...…….. also, you need to understand what "modeling" is.....it is leaning towards "Deep Algorythmic Learning" (ie. AI),where the software will take action based upon 2+2+2=6, but when it gets 2+ (missing the 2) + 2= should be 6.....it takes proaction action for safeguarding.....and there is no aftermarket tuner that I have seen or that anyone has reported or admitted, that they have gone in and addressed this....they typically "shut off" the notifyier (ie check engine light)...but have not addressed the "modeling" aspect...…………

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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechkid View Post
Just go to Ford Racing......they have about 12 publications on their website...…….. also, you need to understand what "modeling" is.....it is leaning towards "Deep Algorythmic Learning" (ie. AI),where the software will take action based upon 2+2+2=6, but when it gets 2+ (missing the 2) + 2= should be 6.....it takes proaction action for safeguarding.....and there is no aftermarket tuner that I have seen or that anyone has reported or admitted, that they have gone in and addressed this....they typically "shut off" the notifyier (ie check engine light)...but have not addressed the "modeling" aspect...…………
I’m not seeing it here. https://performance.ford.com
Could you please post a link? I found this write up on another forum that gives a pretty good explanation on what the rears do. It states that the rears are there to not only monitor catalysts, but to help keep the front o2 sensors calibrated. It doesn’t state that they control the a/f ratio. However, this doesn’t apply to The Fox or from ‘94-‘04 because those year models have four narrowband o2’s. This guy states that the fronts are wide band and the afts are narrow. I’m not sure when they started coming stock with wide bands but the older ones sure didn’t. Parts stores list the same o2 part numbers from ‘94-‘04 (prob for a fox too). They also list rear o2’s for ‘94/‘95 even though they didn’t come with afts. Once I needed a new o2 and the parts guy said we don’t have any fronts on hand for your 1995 Mustang, we only have the rear. I said it well I’ll take the rear then. He said it does different things it won’t work. Anyway I got the rear o2 and I plugged it into the one and only bung and all is well. The wiring harness lengths is the only difference.
Maybe the literature you were reading was dealing with “modern” cars. But the OP’s car has four narrow band o2 sensors. The fronts do the adjusting the rears just check the cats.
If foxbodies and 94-04 mustangs came with wide band o2’s then why do people who self-tune have to buy another wide band o2?
https://www.svtperformance.com/threa...nside.1122899/
Sorry OP for ruining your post.
Post pics of the old spark plugs.

Last edited by 90lxwhite; 08-15-2019 at 08:29 AM.
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 08-15-2019
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Hold the phone!
It was tuned, you added cams and never re-tuned?
If so, I’d bet the farm that that is your problem.
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LOL wow guys, you’re going to scare this kid away from the forum completely.
Going back to the original question, first and foremost gocats, both of these guys are a lot smarter about this stuff than Iam so I am not entering that debate.

Personally I do not think your lack of cats is causing the issue. One of the most common mods mustang owners do is swapping out the mid pipe with an off road H or X and experience no issues. Even with out a tune, most will still run fine (and just have a CEL on). Having a canned tune from places like BAMA or others, turn off the CEL and should leave you with ZERO drivability issues.
I am leaning more towards your cams and lack of tune. I have been strongly considering swapping the cams and have been trying to learn as much as I can about the process.

Cams determine the entire engine's behavior.
I know almost every "stage 1" cam out there states no tune required, but despite the fact the ECU can"learn/adjust" a little, I would think that any cams that truly do not need a tune would have to be close enough to "stock" spec that any performance enhancement would be almost non-existent. I know there are some success stories of guys who have done it, but as a general rule, getting a tune would be best for not only performance, but drivability and engine safety.

I am also learning about how important it is to make sure the cams are properly degreed.
(Again not just for maximum gains, but also thatthey are running correctly and not damaging anything). I know some places like MHS and Cushman offer degree services when the cams are purchased to help make sure everything goes easy and smooth.

Do you know what series Anderson Cams you are running(i.e. N/A-12, N/A-22, etc.)?
I know Anderson does not list their cam specs, but they do show their powerband/RPM range,which do seem to place things higher (even on their stage 1), which would suggest they like grinds with large duration.

Last edited by SonicBlue02; 08-19-2019 at 10:50 AM.
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Originally Posted by SonicBlue02 View Post
LOL wow guys, you’re going to scare this kid awayfrom the forum completely.


Going back to the original question, first andforemost gocats, both of these guys are a lot smarter about this stuff than Iam so I am not entering that debate.


Personally I do not think your lack of cats iscausing the issue. One of the most common mods mustang owners do is swappingout the mid pipe with an off road H or X and experience no issues. Even withouta tune, most will still run fine (and just have a CEL on). Having a canned tunefrom places like BAMA or others, turn off the CEL and should leave you withZERO drivability issues.


I am leaning more towards your cams and lack oftune. I have been strongly considering swapping the cams and have been trying tolearn as much as I can about the process.


Cams determine the entire engine's behavior.


I know almost every "stage 1" cam outthere states no tune required, but despite the fact the ECU can"learn/adjust" a little, I would think that any cams that trulydo not need a tune would have to be close enough to "stock" spec thatany performance enhancement would be almost non-existent. I know there are somesuccess stories of guys who have done it, but as a general rule, getting a tunewould be best for not only performance, but drivability and engine safety.


I am also learning about how important it is tomake sure the cams are properly degreed.


(Again not just for maximum gains, but also thatthey are running correctly and not damaging anything). I know some places likeMHS and Cushman degree services when the cams are purchased to help make sureeverything goes easy and smooth.


Do you know what series Anderson Cams you are running(i.e. N/A-12, N/A-22, etc.)?


I know Anderson does not listtheir cam specs, but they do show their powerband/RPM range,which do seem to place things higher (even on their stage 1), which wouldsuggest they like grinds with large duration.
I wonder what’s with the spark plugs exploding?

Last edited by 90lxwhite; 08-17-2019 at 08:56 PM.
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I have read a lot about how sensitive the threads are on the 4.6 sohc (or lack there of), so I guess I would maybe be thinking the blowout is occurring due to them not being properly tightened. It seems that there are a lot of horror stories with these engines (even with simple tune ups). He did also mention that he has had a couple re-threaded.


I cannot comment from experience with the plugs (I am still on the original set). I have to admit, all the horror stories have gotten to me, and despite the fact that I have performed literally hundreds of tune ups before (including on my old non pi 4.6 t-bird), I will probably have Ford do it when I get closer to 50k miles, just to ensure everything is done properly (or if it gets screwed up, it's on them to make it right).
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