Well even the non supercharged variants are pretty potent competitors to a stock 94-98 Mustang GT. I can guarantee you that with equal (average) drivers you'd be hard pressed to see a regular optioned 4.6L out accelerate a 3.8L Camaro manual. Both are ~15 second cars.
Heck, a lot of the 2.73 geared auto GTs from that era couldn't out accelerate a 99 v6 mustang, let alone the slightly superior Camaro v6. When it comes to stock performance and N/A power, GM is certainly ahead of the game when it comes to Ford.
I think it's important to know your competition, and that more often then not, the underdogs (that's us) should know more about them, then they do about us. Nothing worse than losing to a car that you didn't could easily be fast like the 80's F-bodies, the 80's T-types, all of the supercharged 3.8L cars which includes most of the 90's Buick Line-up, The Grand Prix GTP, The Bonneville SSEi, The 2004 Impala SS, the Monte Carlo and probably some other cars I can't think of right now. Heck, even a properly setup 5.3L silverado could put a hurt on most of the mustangs on the 2v board.
Anyways, my point is that now you know... and knowing is half the battle.
YO JOE!
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1996 Mustang GT 248A
barely any mods, Daily driver
1965 Chevy c-10 350 chevy getting pulled for 402BBC and Th400
1984 Caprice Classic 305 getting pulled for mild 350, hoping for high 14s
I think it's important to know your competition, and that more often then not, the underdogs (that's us) should know more about them, then they do about us.
Yea that so true. Well thanks for the lesson
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-2000 Mustang GT Ford Racing 4.10s // T45R 5speed// Hawk HPS Brake Pads // Cold Air // BBK 75mm TB // BBK X-pipe // Hooker Aero Chambers // Eibach Sportline's // Ford Racing Upper and Maximum Motorsports Lower Control Arms // '95 Cobra R's // Toyo Proxes T1-S // Steeda Tri- Ax Ram HDX Clutch // tuned w/ SCT X3
Yep.... back in the day a Grand National would spank a lot of V8's.. Very impressive for a family car...
well a few months back I saw a Grand National at a the drag strip I work at put down some ridiculous times. Ive always heard about them at shows and what not but man in person... they really move.
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-2000 Mustang GT Ford Racing 4.10s // T45R 5speed// Hawk HPS Brake Pads // Cold Air // BBK 75mm TB // BBK X-pipe // Hooker Aero Chambers // Eibach Sportline's // Ford Racing Upper and Maximum Motorsports Lower Control Arms // '95 Cobra R's // Toyo Proxes T1-S // Steeda Tri- Ax Ram HDX Clutch // tuned w/ SCT X3
Stock the grand nationals are pretty impressive, and they are very easy to make seriously fast. The next few months are gonna be a very interesting time, gm and chrysler have some serious threats to deal with if they want to survive, and its a virtual certainty that if mopar does survive it will merge with fiat. They both have us ford guys beat on factory hp and torque, but we (muscle car lovers) are a rather small market segment and if gm and mopar don't come up with some really good ideas to transition into something the rest of the market wants its all gonna be moot because ford will be the only major american automaker left. Power is great, but a lot of companies around the globe put out cars with plenty of power, better reliability, resale, quality, fit and finish... I know this is asking to get shot in here, but can you imagaine a mustang built as well as the accords of today? Now you're talking about a heluva car, with nice interior, ergonomics, and high quality parts. The american auto industry has tried for too long to dictate what cars should be that we've gotten left behind by what cars can be. I'm never getting rid of my mustang, but there's a lot to be learned from the way others are doing things and adapting to the reality of the world BEFORE it becomes a do or die necessity. Without that, in a few years there willl be the same problems because the leadership refuses to adapt and realize it can't simply do as it wants and expect to be viable. Gone are the days of win on sunday and sell on monday, its more like win on sunday and see if you can open the showroom on monday.
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That hunk of junk? Yeah, well I've made a few special modifications to that yellow 99 Gt, it makes the Kessel run in 12 parsecs and eats turbo japs and poops chevy's
Stock the grand nationals are pretty impressive, and they are very easy to make seriously fast. The next few months are gonna be a very interesting time, gm and chrysler have some serious threats to deal with if they want to survive, and its a virtual certainty that if mopar does survive it will merge with fiat. They both have us ford guys beat on factory hp and torque, but we (muscle car lovers) are a rather small market segment and if gm and mopar don't come up with some really good ideas to transition into something the rest of the market wants its all gonna be moot because ford will be the only major american automaker left. Power is great, but a lot of companies around the globe put out cars with plenty of power, better reliability, resale, quality, fit and finish... I know this is asking to get shot in here, but can you imagaine a mustang built as well as the accords of today? Now you're talking about a heluva car, with nice interior, ergonomics, and high quality parts. The american auto industry has tried for too long to dictate what cars should be that we've gotten left behind by what cars can be. I'm never getting rid of my mustang, but there's a lot to be learned from the way others are doing things and adapting to the reality of the world BEFORE it becomes a do or die necessity. Without that, in a few years there willl be the same problems because the leadership refuses to adapt and realize it can't simply do as it wants and expect to be viable. Gone are the days of win on sunday and sell on monday, its more like win on sunday and see if you can open the showroom on monday.
+1
I think a lot of GMs problems really sit around the fact that they're mainly only interested in making the fastest, best performing car in it's class at the price of everything else. I don't think every GM model needs 14 trim levels and a high performance engine (not to mention the fact that they needlessly share it across all brands)
Basically, no one wants an Aveo, or a Cobalt no matter how great the value or the track times on the sport model. Do you think John
"First Time Car Buyer" Doe is going to pick those over the Scion line-up? Also, I'm hard pressed to see anything competing with the japanese full size car market that isn't mopar, and don't get me started on how poorly made those rolling piles of mixed-breed junk are. Even the SRT-8 trim is flying junk. I hope that chevy releases the Impala in RWD off the G8 chassis, although hopefully not nearly as ugly, and hopefully with a little marketing behind it.
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1996 Mustang GT 248A
barely any mods, Daily driver
1965 Chevy c-10 350 chevy getting pulled for 402BBC and Th400
1984 Caprice Classic 305 getting pulled for mild 350, hoping for high 14s
Preach on brutha Dave! How about something the size of a cobalt, but with the thought and engineering effort of the vette? Doesn't have to be even fast, just well built and assembled, and maybe even... shhh... a small engine that isn't a piece of dung? Add in a nice, well thought out and appointed interior... you might take some of honda and toyota's market back. GM should hire me to run the show, I'd have them out of the trash can and at the top of the industry in short order, but I would start by firing almost every executive... call it the great purge of 09, Moses style, anyone that was part of the problem or even around for it is gone, new people, new ideas, and a company that actually makes money and good products. Never happen though, they're too concerned with private jets and bonuses, who cares if the company tanks if you get $100 million before it goes down, and who cares if the working class takes it in the pooper? That's what they're for right? To provide the luxury for the rich scumbags? Mindset is the biggest problem, and it will never change as long as there are people making ridiculously high salaries for pathetically small and unprofitable work. I will end this before I really start ranting, time to take the Mustang out for a drive/therapy.
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That hunk of junk? Yeah, well I've made a few special modifications to that yellow 99 Gt, it makes the Kessel run in 12 parsecs and eats turbo japs and poops chevy's
Preach on brutha Dave! How about something the size of a cobalt, but with the thought and engineering effort of the vette? Doesn't have to be even fast, just well built and assembled, and maybe even... shhh... a small engine that isn't a piece of dung? Add in a nice, well thought out and appointed interior... you might take some of honda and toyota's market back. GM should hire me to run the show, I'd have them out of the trash can and at the top of the industry in short order, but I would start by firing almost every executive... call it the great purge of 09, Moses style, anyone that was part of the problem or even around for it is gone, new people, new ideas, and a company that actually makes money and good products. Never happen though, they're too concerned with private jets and bonuses, who cares if the company tanks if you get $100 million before it goes down, and who cares if the working class takes it in the pooper? That's what they're for right? To provide the luxury for the rich scumbags? Mindset is the biggest problem, and it will never change as long as there are people making ridiculously high salaries for pathetically small and unprofitable work. I will end this before I really start ranting, time to take the Mustang out for a drive/therapy.
Right on, just don't forget about me if you get the spot. I have quite a few ideas for them myself. This whole 5 speed auto luxury LS-bred truck nonsense needs to see it's end, along with removing the caddy engine from the base Camaro. The Camaro needs a decent 4 cyl to set it apart from the rest of the retro crowd, and to appeal to (and reach the price range of) younger buyers.
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1996 Mustang GT 248A
barely any mods, Daily driver
1965 Chevy c-10 350 chevy getting pulled for 402BBC and Th400
1984 Caprice Classic 305 getting pulled for mild 350, hoping for high 14s
I've always liked Ford better than GM ever since I was a little kid, but GM has always made more power due to one thing. Displacement. They can't compete well with smaller V8's and in todays times it seems they have forgotten completely what technology with a small engine can do(face it, Nissan 370 is a monster). If GM would actually downsize their V8 and dump some serious R&D into it I would not doubt they would produce a 300+HP car. Their V6 for the Camaro makes 300hp, hell they may even tap the 400hp+ mark(Ford's 4.6 and cammer 5.0 are making slight over 300 and 400hp now). I think Ford as the advantage with price, quality over GM and being the underdog. I am impressed with how Ford has stuck with their guns and not given in to make a 5.7+ liter V8 to make more power. In that regard has anyone who is speaking negative over GM ever driven 5.7+ liter car in their fleet? Torque is the only word that comes to mind. Their cars are torque monsters N/A and it's a very respectable thing. Again, I love the underdog, my GT looks great in my garage and I don't plan on changing that unless I need a 4 door. Then will I reconsider a G8 GT...
*my statements as far as GM using R&D to make sports car/engine improvements are aside the fact they may not survive the recession.
Ive said it before and Ill say it again, I wouldnt trade my stang for anything. Ive had lots of experience with the 5.7L LS1 and they are faster from the factory, but after you have been around them they dont feel all that fast. They are no big deal to me at all anymore and havent been for a long time, stock or stockish anyways. Plus I have my car setup up to whoop any of those cars asses right now, F-body or 2010, so Im not worried about that. But I will give the new Camaro little respect for great performance, but its just way to damn ugly. From the front it looks mean and beastly, but from the side and the back....uhhh. Its enough to basically ruin the car for me. Not sure exactly why the SS is not the base model but wasnt the Z28 gonna be supercharged and be top model? Thats confusing to me and doesnt make any since.
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-04 Mustang GT-Intercooled Kenne bell 2.1L supercharged @10psi, C&L cold air intake, mass air flow, Sumitt racing 75mm throttle body, Magnaflow catback with Bassani X-pipe, chip and dyno tuned, 3:73 gears, B&M short shifter, FMS lowering springs and UPR caster camber plates, UPR upper/lower control arms, UPR subframe connectors. Kumho 275 up front/Kumho XS 315 in rear. Currently 420RWHP/435lbtq
-Daily Driver 04 Toyota Tacoma PreRunner, Blacked out, TRD suspension, K&N filter.
you do realize that GM has had 300 hp 4.6L V8s for just as long as Ford right? They're called the Northstar series. GM also was the company with the Quad Four engine that made 190 hp (Naturally Aspirated 2.3L Four Cylinder) in 1991. I'm pretty sure people brag about their Honda s2000's ability to do the same thing a decade later. When it comes to the technology put into engine design GM is second to none, hands down.
Displacement is not the be-all end-all, which is why the GM 4.8L v8 (which uses primarily the same technology as the LS1 put into production in 1997) is such an amazing engine for it's size and OHV design. If GM relied on displacement, their popular truck motor (5.3L) would be larger than Fords 5.4L, not to mention the fact that the 5.3 (4.8, and 6.0) are lightyears ahead of it.
OHC configuration is not some fancy new thing that makes our cars more "advanced" than a GM car. GM has played with it in sporty v8s too. Ever heard of the 5.7L LT-5 in the 1989 Corvette ZR-1? If it was such a revolutionary breakthrough design I'm sure the chevy/lotus design team would have stuck with it. I mean we're talking about a company that can do more with 3.6L (and two less cylinders) than ford could manage improve on with (sans forced induction) since 1996.
And lets not even mention what kind of a failure the 5.4L is without some sort of supercharger (surprise) forced feeding it. The 2v and 3v can't manage to even out power a measily 4.6L engine, and the 4v is about as useless as it is overly expensive.
As far as I can remember chevy's idea has been to make the better engine and cram it in the worse car, displacement be damned. Fords answer was to make something the public could latch on to and if they needed to catch up they could always lean on Saleen, Roush, Shelby and nowadays the whole supercharger crutch.
Hell, even one of the crappiest smallblocks ever made by Chevy (the 305) makes more power in it's 1996 Vortec Trim than my 1996 GT. That's technology.
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1996 Mustang GT 248A
barely any mods, Daily driver
1965 Chevy c-10 350 chevy getting pulled for 402BBC and Th400
1984 Caprice Classic 305 getting pulled for mild 350, hoping for high 14s
You bring good points Dave, and just a little FYI I owned a quad 4 a few years back, it was an impressive 4 banger and the Quad you are refering to is the limited Quad 4 HO W41. They were only produced in the oldsmobile. The Quad 4 HO only came in pontiacs with 180hp which for the time, yes was impressive. Sorry Honda has exceeded the rule with 4 cylinder power by producing the S2000. A 2.0 liter(also available in 2.2) with 240-250hp. But we are talking Chevy V8 vs Ford V8 here.
If GM was so successful with their V8 how come they never stuck with a design? They keep changing things and ford just keeps going back to their R&D to find improvements. To me, personally, it's why I prefer Ford over GM, I respect the faster V8. But I love the fact Ford is proud of what they have and doesn't change everything just to prove they have a bigger block.This is mainly the reason why GM is sh*tting themselves sideways begging for money from Uncle Sam right now.
And with all due respect, the Corvette Z06, is probably on of the top 5 if not the top car I would own in my book. 505hp n/a with a seriously sick suspension. Forget stinky tire smoking burn outs and raw straight line torque accelerations. Let's go take a crap on a Farrari on our way home from work in the rain.
And speaking of Chevy 305? I quoted the below from wiki.com so don't be so quick to dog your own 96 GT....
305
The 305 5.0L variant of the small-block Chevrolet introduced in 1975 had a displacement of 305 cu in (5 L) with a 3.7350-inch (94.869 mm) bore, and 3.4803-inch (88.4 mm) stroke. Some performance enthusiasts have noted a marked interest to performance upgrades on the 305 because of its mod´s opportunities, good selection of performance parts, and the relatively high availability of 305 cu in (5 L) engines. Little mods on cooling system, better intake and exhaust, internal efficiency and fuel delivery, can turn a 305 into a solid performance engine making the same or even more horsepower than than a stock 350 5.7L engine.
Induction systems for the 305 included carburetors (both 2 and 4-barrel), throttle-body injection (TBI), tuned-port fuel injection (TPI), and sequential fuel injection (GM Vortec).
The 305 was used in the following cars:
Right on, just don't forget about me if you get the spot. I have quite a few ideas for them myself. This whole 5 speed auto luxury LS-bred truck nonsense needs to see it's end, along with removing the caddy engine from the base Camaro. The Camaro needs a decent 4 cyl to set it apart from the rest of the retro crowd, and to appeal to (and reach the price range of) younger buyers.
GM has also thought of putting a 2.0 L. ecotec in future Camaros. The same as the HHR SS/turbo(260hp/260tq). A Stage Kit can be added to reach 290HP and 315 Tq. just my 2 cents.
