Well boys, looks like I might just go for the cams on my engine swap afterall. So I have some questions here. My plans are absolutely no power adders at all. Just motor. Daily driver/road course no drag racing except maybe once or twice just to say I did it before I die 😋.
PI motor and I would love to achieve around 360HP or torque whichever comes first(kinda sounds like a warranty doesn't it?) At the crank so that's what like about 340 to the wheels on a stick shift?
Is this achievable with some good cams and headers, including plenum and tune? If not then what else am I expecting to purchase?
Not worried about the whole smog thing 😉.
So let me know if this is achievable more or less what parts will get me there. My budget here is probably around 2k.
If this won't cover my goals how far in terms of HP or torque might I expect as a rough estimate? This will be the first time I ever get into replacing interior engine components or getting some real power gains period on any engine so please bear with me
Cams alone, maybe include headers if you want, on a PI engine will put you around 280-290 to the tires. Add heads, there are lots of variable here such as going with worked PI castings or throwing down the big money for TF's; most h/c/e 2V's see around 310-320 rwhp.
I love the idea of an n/a build. I hate the reality that I'd be at least $3grand deep in parts alone and 80 rwhp short of what I could be making with a P1SC for maybe $500 more and have room to grow with that blower as well.
I would do cams and lt's in a heartbeat. Very worthwhile, and will leave room to spare for other stuff within your stated $2K budget. I personally don't think the admission price of heads on an engine that you don't intend to force air into makes them very worthwhile. Worked PI castings go for $1500+, and the end result is an additional 15 rwhp on an n/a 2V. Trick Flows are basically $2200, plus obviously you won't be wasting your time with stock cams and springs in those so there's another $800, plus other odds n ends like bigger injectors, fresh timing set, etc and you still need to get it tuned. Definitely in blower territory as far as money spent going that route.
There's a reason you don't see many 2V all-out n/a builds, and it's because they just don't make much sense financially. The couple I've seen that made outstanding power (one at almost 400rw and another claiming 500rw), those guys had at least $8K into those engines. Most people who want power out of these engines eventually just force feed them or get a bottle setup.
SoCal2V well in that case I probably don't want to drop that much money into it to have so little gains. Like you said I like the idea of an all motor power output, it just makes for great reliability and peace of mind.
But I'm still 100% open to options, ideas, and suggestions so keep em coming guys let's do this as a team. So reconsidering what I said about no power adders I'm now consider a supercharger on a completely stock engine. If I go this route what else will I need to change? Definitely not trying to go over my previously stated HP goals I want to have a lot of safe HP zone considering the 450 stock capacity of the engine which really isn't bad in my opinion. As a plus if I do go with a supercharger that means I can have this engine my car much sooner and enjoy driving it long before I planned to.
You can make decent power with custom cams (stage 2 cams, etc) and a PI intake swap. You are looking at close to 300hp at the flywheel with a good tune.
Nice. I bet the spray will be lots of fun with that much HP.
Well after seeing all of this now I'm just thinking I want to keep it stock and save up for a super charger and it's needed upgrades down the road. After throwing money on bolt ons that didn't really yield mug if anything I kinda want my money to count you know.. best bang for my buck kinda thing. I didn't really want to go with any power adder due to the simple fact of more stress on the engine but you know what YOLO as these kids say nowadays. And I can expect the super charger to deliver throughout the whole power band as opposed to sacrificing low end output which doesn't seem to appealing to me since I do plan to enjoy it at a road course.
Now I have another question. This product doesn't exactly say timing chain overhaul kit but is this basically what this is? Last one I got from auto zone was crap. I'm looking for quality especially if I plan to boost it later on.
$1,500 for the installation kit, then find a junkyard Coyote out of a wrecked vehicle. That's what I'm looking at too. You could potentially spend the same money and get more power than a blower kit.
Ya, the heads and cams will run about $5K and since mine is a twisty car I don't want forced induction. Intake is like $600 unless I'm lucky enough to find a junkyard gt350 and just pull the whole voodoo out!
Coyote is the way to go if you're thinking about the long run. But most of us are short-termers; it's a lot easier to piece together a blower setup for $3500 over whatever period of time than it is to plunk down $7K all at once for a used Coyote plus the $1500 plug n' play install kit.
I'm lucky when I can buy all 4 tires at the same time, many times in the past it's like I'll get two on this check and the other two on my next check. And currently 3 out of my 5 vehicles need new tires.... Something tells me it's gonna be a long summer.
I'm in the exact same boat you're in. It took me a month to save up money for a $130 transmission pan. But that's the reason I'd look at the Coyote swap if I was going to do this. A quick search of salvage yards turns up Coyote engines out of F-150s for as little as $1,800 without warranty and around $2,500 with warranty. Tack on the installation kit for $1,500, and a couple hundred more for odds and ends to finish the job, and you could be looking at the exact same cost as a blower kit for one of our cars. But, you'd have more power and a cool show car on your hands. It's worth looking into.
I won't be doing it this year because we're trying to sell our house and move, plus I have some medical bills coming in. But hopefully one day....
A coyote swap is more than just the computer and engine.....it is not a cheap option even with used engines. I looked when my exhaust valve broke and started the mild build I'm on right now...I couldn't find a used Coyote for under $5k even from an F150....plus the exhaust setup, install kit...acsessories...way too much money when all I had to do was add cams and keep my nitrous shot and be on par with any normal coyote.
To be competitive with a new edge with a 2v engine in the twisty is going to cost you. Technology has evolved way past our age. You looking at a roughly 220- 235rwhp stock gt. If you cam, ported pi heads and high compression your at 310-335rwhp at 6500+rpms at the top of the range. If you cam, TFS heads and high compression your at 340-360rwhp at 6500+rpms at the top of the range. Now your at a bone stock Coyote power level. Building a 2v engine with all the good parts and making it live isn't going to be cheap. Even if you did most of the work yourself it still will be expensive, a little cheaper but they are not given parts away free.
Next is the transmission, it need to be built with good parts, converter, trans cooler, able to hold more fluid, etc. Going around a lot of twist and generating a lot of heat is not good for a trans.
We haven't even talked about suspension and dropping weight.
If you're doing this because you just want to have fun? Then by all means go do it. Spend a little money and enjoy your car and have fun.
If doing it to be competitive? Then I hope you have a deep check book for a N/A 2v.
As for as the Coyote swap goes. If I new a guy that has done a couple of swapsand he was willing to help me then I would do it. Other than that just by the damn car. There is to many small things you will have to troubleshoot to get it to run right in a New Edge for a beginner. I would rather be up and running in a week than to be down for months chasing gremlins.
Nice thing is most of my suspension is already taken care of with mm gear, just a few small tidbits to finish up. And Ya I understand the coyote swap is pretty intensive which is why it's on my lottery list!
What about a pushrod 302 based swap for a street/strip/auto x car? The parts are cheaper and in abundance. Also, max power will come in below 6k rpm. It seems like the motor would drop right in as far as fitment goes w out issue. Other than the wiring harness and ecu, what else would need to be swapped? What about the transmission? It'd probably be a deal breaker money wise if you had to get a new one.
If all of the little extras don't cost too much it seems like it'd be a cost efficient way to make 400 hp or so.
The 95 and 96 mustang gt make about the same amount of hp stock. Guy A has a 95 gt and guy B has a 96. Guy A has his stock 302 bottom rebuilt for $1k or so. Then he spends another $3k on a new topend, injectors, and pump. He is now making somewhere in the ballpark of 300 whp around 5,800 rpm with a mean tq curve. If he were to spend another $3k on a blower he'd be making 400+ hp under 6k rpm.
How much would guy B have to spend to make 300 rwhp n/a and at what rpm would y'all guess it'd be?
If guy A went with a stock rebuild and forced induction he'd spend around $4k to reach 300 whp. If guy B went the forced induction route he'd spend $4k on the blower and still have the same high mile bottom end.
The biggest problem an SN95/NewEdge car is gonna have doing a/x course driving competitively isn't their lack of power, it's suspension and chassis dynamics.
You can be pretty competitve at moderate power levels, but you really need a purpose built suspension to get the job done right.
I have a 96 GT convertible with all the bolt-ons, short headers, x pipe, I even swapped out to the PI upper in take, rims tires and suspension. etc.... not including all the other stuff (new tail lights, head lights, on and on...) I just purchased a set of PI stock/mod heads and stage 2 cam/injectors from MHS. I hope to have it installed next week. I have no idea where I'm at for HP but I will have it dyno'd after the install.
It's an endless money pit.. lol... but I use it as my weekend (sometimes drive it to work) fun car. I always think that 'this is it' but I'm sure next year I will look into a supercharger at 5-7 grand installed... not sure I want to invest that much... I probably have 10k in add-on so far with all labor after the heads I''ll be at 12k+ into the car...
I guess the point is you really do have to sink a lot of money if you want power from these motors so really think about what you want out of it.
These cars only have 281 cubic inches, which is to me a very small V8. Full bolt on and cams get you close to 300rwhp. Adding port work to the heads will just get you over the 300rwhp and adding TFS head will put you comfortably in the 300+rwhp range. Now on the same pace, a LS1 with full bolt on, heads, cam and intake with put you over the 400rwhp mark. If you invest enough money in anything, you can make it fast but pound for pound with all bolt on been equal, you will always be slower than a LS.
A 94/95 GT can make 400 rwhp for around $6k with minimal bolt-on's. 3k'ish for a new topend, and another $3k'ish for a blower.
If one was to opt for only the $3k n/a route (street car with a $3k topend budget) they'd make somewhere between say 280 rwhp to a little bit over 300 rwhp. If one was to decide to do a "stockish" topend (unported e7te heads) and add a $3kish supercharger they'd make somewhere between 300-340 rwhp (depending on the cam and intake) and that's with using the stock tb, maf, and headers. The 94/95 GT's make around 200 rwhp stock so a 100 horse gain to the tires for $3k isn't too bad in the big scheme of things I guess.
But yeah you're right, the 281 is on the smaller side and with smaller motors you have to be able to rev the sht outta them to make a lot of power. The 302 is a pretty small motor too, it's only a 4.9 liter. But in most cases (street car with a $3kish topend) it makes peak power somewhere between 5,500-6k rpm's and it starts making power around 3k rpm's. My dad has a stock 97 gt. It's a fair cruiser, but man is it a dog in the speed dept. It seems like the power doesn't come on until around 4k rpm which takes forever to get to. Then it runs out of steam at 6k rpm's. The worst part about that car is the aftermarket. It's expensive and there aren't a lot of options.
I don't think it's the displacement really. I think it's the flimsy power band. It takes forever to get to and in stock trim seems real narrow. I think if I was going to mod a 4.6 I wouldn't spend a dime on bolt-on parts I don't think. Because I don't think it really make you out run anyone who would previously blow your doors off. Same goes for the 94/95's. I'd either leave well enough alone or I'd pony up for a blower. If it's not nite and day, I won't pay. [emoji6]
The good thing about the 94-95 compared to the 96-98 is the 5.0 engine. If you want to make N/A power, you can stroke that 302 out to a 331 or 347 and make very respectful power in a N/A trim using quality parts. My opinion, it is a waste of money with a 281 2v. You will have to have top notch parts and rev the snot out of it to see a good gain.
351 can be stroked to a 427 but I think that's a bit much maybe a 390 and add a sc and call it a day but anytime you get a change in hp it makes you want more after two wot runs with the pi intake I wanted more
Yeah the 351 to 427 can make big power but it gets kinda expensive at that point since you have to use big ole heads.
But really though a 79-95 302/306 that makes 300-350 horse at the wheels is plenty quick. It's not a monster by any means but it'd be capable of a 12 second 1/4 mile which isn't bad considering they ran high 14's stock.
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