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Unread 10-15-2009   #1 (permalink)
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Default Found broken metal pieces in intake manifold

Ok, ive explained my story too many times, so here is the quick version. Completely rebuilt my engine. Upgrades in signature. Had machinist rebuild long block. Something went wrong, fixed it (took top end off including heads, and reinstalled) and put engine back together. Drove for 100 miles fine. Not as much power as I was hoping for, but it was working. One day out of nowhere i hear this awful noise. I was able to coast down the hill to get home. Heres the video of the noise.

I parked the car and have not worked on it in about 6 months. Got motivated this week and started ripping it apart again. I took the intake manifold off and heard something inside of it when moving it. i shook out some broken metal fragmets of something. Here is the picture. I put my wedding ring in the picture for size reference. Can you identify these pieces? Any guesses on what went out?
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Found broken metal pieces in intake manifold-cimg0078.jpg  
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Unread 10-15-2009   #2 (permalink)
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Default Perhaps valve spring retainer

I'm sorry about your car bro. But it sounds like an upper end knock. What I would do first is pull your valve covers and look for any loose, missing, or broken valve springs. If there is then you will have to pull the head off and repair any broken parts. Then make sure you pull the oil pan and fully flush it of any foreign material. Replace the oil pump and sump screen. And make absolutely sure you get rid of any foreign material in the heads, intake, throttle body. If there is any foreign material left in the engine after repairs you will be doing it again. And make sure the cylinder walls are still smooth and not gouged or scratched while you have the heads off. It seems like a lot of work but it's rather easy on the mustangs. I've done it over a hundred times. The 4.6L engine really is not a tough engine when it comes to mods and adding horsepower.
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Unread 10-15-2009   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by nick5m View Post
I'm sorry about your car bro. But it sounds like an upper end knock. What I would do first is pull your valve covers and look for any loose, missing, or broken valve springs. If there is then you will have to pull the head off and repair any broken parts. Then make sure you pull the oil pan and fully flush it of any foreign material. Replace the oil pump and sump screen. And make absolutely sure you get rid of any foreign material in the heads, intake, throttle body. If there is any foreign material left in the engine after repairs you will be doing it again. And make sure the cylinder walls are still smooth and not gouged or scratched while you have the heads off. It seems like a lot of work but it's rather easy on the mustangs. I've done it over a hundred times. The 4.6L engine really is not a tough engine when it comes to mods and adding horsepower.
First off, thanks for the sympathy. I've done the entire rebuild a couple of times now. I know all about how to work on this engine. It's not as easy when you have long tube headers to deal with. I was hoping somebody could Identify the broken pieces to see if they could tell what might have broken. I dont see the point in replacing the oil pump if the screen caught the debris. Oil filter would catch smaller pieces. I took the valve covers off and all looks well. I can see the valves through the ports and they all look o.k. as well. I will tear this down to the nub if I have to, just seeing what is neccesary. Really would like if someone could tell what the pieces are though.
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Unread 10-15-2009   #4 (permalink)
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I wonder if one of your rockers bit it? I think the 2v is an interference motor... Possibly a valve is contacting a piston. Or maybe a valve spring retainer or two gave up the ghost. From what I can see, there is a machined surface to the fragments. With the valve covers off, is there any visible signs of damage? Anything loose? have you cranked the car over to see if everything that should move does and what doesn't doesn't?
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Unread 10-15-2009   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Nicks79 View Post
I wonder if one of your rockers bit it? I think the 2v is an interference motor... Possibly a valve is contacting a piston. Or maybe a valve spring retainer or two gave up the ghost. From what I can see, there is a machined surface to the fragments. With the valve covers off, is there any visible signs of damage? Anything loose? have you cranked the car over to see if everything that should move does and what doesn't doesn't?
Just looking at it with the covers off it looks normal, but I will definitely take your advice and manually crank it to make sure everthing is working as it should. No time tonight, but will first thing in the morning. I also noticed a little oil inside the intake manifold if that means anything. From my research, that usually means a pcv problem. Could anthing have come from there and dropped into the engine maybe?
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Unread 10-16-2009   #6 (permalink)
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I went out and inspected and nothing was loose. All parts in head look right. I tried to manually crank the engine, and it is binding. Wont crank. Contact somewhere. Probably another one of these chunks of metal in between the heads and block. Looks like a full strip is required. I hope the heads made it out alive. I will let you know what occurs. Let me know if you can think of other reasons why it would bind and not crank around.
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Unread 10-16-2009   #7 (permalink)
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I would guess piston to valve contact. Sometimes it seems that some engines will spin fine with no load, but when you go wot it will push the valves just a bit farther and then boom! My friends car did the same thing. Make sure the cams are properly degreed too.
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Unread 10-16-2009   #8 (permalink)
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My cams are set position, cant degree them. Looked all into that when I thought I had ptv contact before. Some cams are adjustable, but mine are not. I dont see how WOT would change anything in the mechanical end of it. That doesn't make any sense. There is no flex in the valves that would cause anything to change in the rotation, just because you increased the rpms. Now, there is a chance that from increasing the rpm's something gave out and dropped into the engine when the valve opened, then crunched the hell out of it, which is the direction I'm leaning though. I appreciate the input though. Just trying to reason out loud.
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Unread 10-16-2009   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmeh33 View Post
My cams are set position, cant degree them.
Did you put them in with a degree wheel? See here for more info.
Notes on 2V cam installs. - Trick Tuners Forums

I'm not an engine expert, but i believe at high rpm the valve might extend a bit farther due to more spring compression. Did you upgrade the springs?
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Unread 10-16-2009   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jgorm View Post
Did you put them in with a degree wheel? See here for more info.
Notes on 2V cam installs. - Trick Tuners Forums

I'm not an engine expert, but i believe at high rpm the valve might extend a bit farther due to more spring compression. Did you upgrade the springs?
Yeah, I upgraded the springs. Now that does make more sense that higher rpms would allow the spring to expand more, in turn allowing the valve to extend further. As far as degreeing my cams, not all cams can be degreed. Mine are set. I have looked into this and read many manuals. My cam sprockets have keyways that match up with the cams, therefore no rotation is possible there. I also have keyways at the crank that line up and no rotation is possible there. from there you line up your marks on your spockets with the marks on the chain. If you try to move 1 tooth off of those marks, you will get ptv contact. There are adjustable cams built for the purpose of being able to degree them, but I have talked to a kid that had those and one slipped throwing all of the timing off and forcing him to do a full rebuild, so they sound too risky for the reward to me.

I'm wondering if the unthinkable happened and something fell into the intake manifold during the rebuild, sat in there for 100 miles no problem, but with increased airflow got sucked into the system. the broken little chunks are not a bolt though. They do look machined on the inside, like an engine part. I think something failed and broke off, then got into the heads. Dont know what that could possibly be though
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Unread 10-16-2009   #11 (permalink)
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They can still float man, causing contact
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Unread 10-16-2009   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Nicks79 View Post
They can still float man, causing contact
OK, im no pro. What does "float" mean?
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Unread 10-16-2009   #13 (permalink)
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OK, im no pro. What does "float" mean?
The can loose contact and "float". Sometimes you may need to file down the keyway a bit to get the timing dead on.
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Unread 10-16-2009   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jgorm View Post
The can loose contact and "float". Sometimes you may need to file down the keyway a bit to get the timing dead on.
Wouldn't that compromise the strength of the keyway and leave a bunch of slack as well?
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Unread 10-16-2009   #15 (permalink)
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you would probably need to modify the key to fit tight. Did you at least check the cam timing with a degree wheel?
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