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Got Pats Key, Wont turn over HELP??!!

3K views 19 replies 3 participants last post by  damon81nola 
#1 ·
So you all know i've been working on this one a bit and while I haven't been as active on the forum it was because I was gathering things. So I didn't have a PATs key and I had the anti-theft flashing since I got it the battery that was in there died. I ended up getting some awesome leather seats (and maybe more of that interior) from a 95 Mustang GT. Well today when I was going to jump off the car I put the non PATs key in as i usually do in preparation for the locksmith coming to cut and Program me a PATs key later that day and to my surprise.... No antitheft light. Of course I still tried to start it. Did not turn over. I put it on my ODB Code scanner and got no errors. I figured no big deal and was charging the battery until the guy came. Well when he came guess what... still no Anti-Theft. He still was able to program the key though but when he tried.... Still didn't turn over... we verified and put it on his Scanner and everything was fine... No errors for him either, but.... will not turn over. I didn't have time to do much more troubleshooting at the time because it's my fiancé and I's anniversary and we had to get our day started. What the heck?!?
 
#2 · (Edited)
Crank with no start check list:

Just wondering. What model year Mustang are we dealing with?

Should we assume this is a "crank with no start" instead of a "no crank" problem.

Crank with no start check list:
http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/4-6l-tech/336452-1997-mustang-wont-ignite.html#2984838

Run through the check list and post the results.

If this is really a no crank problem, please update the thread. However the odds favor a problem in the neutral safety switches. For the automatic, is it in park? For manual, is the clutch depressed?
 
#3 ·
1996 Mustang GT 4.6L v8 and it doesn't even turn... Doesn't even try to turn over at all.
I checked fuses and replaced the few that I saw were blown. Only one of the ones I seen would be relating to it cranking. Turn the key, gauges and lights work (now new battery) not turning over or even attempting to start.
Just wondering. What model year Mustang are we dealing with.

Should we assume this is a "crank with no start" instead of a "no crank" problem.

Crank with no start check list:
http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/4-6l-tech/336452-1997-mustang-wont-ignite.html#2984838

Run through the check list and post the results.

If this is really a no crank problem, please update the thread. However the odds favor a problem in the neutral safety switches. For the automatic, is it in park? For manual, is the clutch depressed?
 
#4 ·
Turn the key on but do NOT crank. Do all of the cluster lights come on including the theft light?

Does the theft light go out after a 3 second "prove out"?

Does the theft light blink? Post the blink code.

Remove everything from the key ring and try with ONLY the key.
 
#5 ·
The theft light is no longer coming on at all. That's what changed. For the longest it was blinking, now it doesn't even come on and this was before the Locksmith came out to program the key. Have been looking for parts so I haven't did anything to the wiring. I'm wondering what could be the change. For some odd reason that stopped flashing or coming on at all and that is what is strange.
 
#6 ·
Going to assume that all fuses are still good. Especially I/P #16, #6, #15.

Soooooooooo If the theft light isn't coming on during the initial key on lamp test THEN the theft light itself is burned out.
 
#7 ·
The "theft" lamp is an led lamp. I suppose it could burn out, but the likelyhood that it did I think is slim. That's more of an issue with incandescent bulbs.

My kneejerk reaction to all of this is that you verify operation of the clutch or shifter related switches as mentioned above, but this theft light issue tells me there's something else going on. Verify operation of the fuses mentioned in the above post and let us know what you find.
 
#8 ·
I will check those again but I remember those being good when i checked yesterday but I was a bit rushed. as far as the theft light being out that could possibly be so but still won't even start to turn over? I'm gonna have another look at the ignition and the starter too. Probably at my lunch break here in about an hour and a half.



Going to assume that all fuses are still good. Especially I/P #16, #6, #15.

Soooooooooo If the theft light isn't coming on during the initial key on lamp test THEN the theft light itself is burned out.
 
#9 ·
So I checked pretty much all the wiring and fuses and still nothing. Will not turn over at all but... I did find out something interesting. There's an aftermarket Alpine SEC-8025a alarm connected. Now there still is no no anti theft light flashing and she won't even turn over... not cranking at all. I am starting to doubt myself at this point as I am pretty darn good with wiring. I may have someone have a look at it tomorrow as I am hoping it is something simple.
 
#10 ·
FYI, for the Ford factory 1996 model year uses the TATS system that does break the neutral safety circuit when tripped. This will disable the starter from cranking. This is different than later model year PATS systems that disable the fuel injectors.

But it seems to me that all bets are off once it's known there is an after market alarm system installed.

I would love to understand how a cluster light works but doesn't come on during the "lamp test".

FWIIW2, I actually owned a 1996 GT. The prior owner had removed the check engine light in an attempt to hide the fact there was an outstanding DTC code. I bought the car as a "project car" so I expected to have some "issues" to repair. One of the issues to resolve was the odometer wasn't working. I found a local speedometer repair shop that would do a bench repair on the cluster. The shop repaired the odometer and re-lamp'ed any needed lights.

Where's is this going? The lamps on my 1996 cluster were tiny incandescent bulbs. So to me it's not so hard to believe the possibility of a burned out bulb. Think about it. Why would Ford design in a "lamp test" if there wasn't a possibility of bulbs burning out.

But....if you want to confirm that the lack of cranking is from the factory theft system, then try jumping the TATS module pin #12 (W/PK) to #24(R/LB). The TATS module is in the trunk. If the starter cranks now this will prove it was TATS. Note, don't be surprised if the motor still doesn't run. If it was that easy to defeat TATS by jumping two pins together then everyone would do it.
 
#11 ·
You're right. Maybe that light did go out. I wish I was off on today so that I could take that cluster off and possibly replace the bulbs and run some other tests. I'm leaning towards it being either the PATS/TATS system, that old as the car alarm system, or the starter itself but I guess when I get the chance I'll test that theory. I tried putting 12v to the starter but nothing happened so that's a hmm. I'll test out that other theory you gave too
 
#13 ·
I tried putting 12v to the starter but nothing happened so that's a hmm. I'll test out that other theory you gave too
If you injected 12 volts towards the starter solenoid downstream of the the starter relay and the starter didn't crank THEN the problem is with the starter. This couldn't possibly be an anti-theft issue.

Unless...... the voltage was injected on the pilot duty side of the circuit.

Suggest that you go back and double check your work as a wild goose chase may be in your future.

A set of Ford factory wiring diagrams may help reduce the confusion. If interested in getting a set for yourself I maybe able to help. PM if interested.

OBTW, the details are important here. If the theft light comes on at initial key on but then goes out after a 3 second "prove out", this means the chip key was read and accepted and the theft system has OK'ed the motor to start.
 
#12 ·
That Alpine alarm is a bit suspect for me. Because these cars have factory installed anti-theft measures, you wouldn't be the first guy with an aftermarket alarm system that didn't happen to interface well with the factory stuff. There is occasionally such as thing as "too much security", especially when installing an alarm that has starter-kill features like your Alpine probably does.

I have seen more than once on these forums where disconnecting/removing an aftermarket alarm solves problems like you are having. Obviously I can't promise it will be the fix, but I would seriously consider disconnecting it and see if anything changes for the better.
 
#16 ·
Update. Tried the instrument cluster to see if the Theft light was bad but it is not. What is going on here? That light stopped before I got the Locksmith to come out and even her was before he programmed the key. I tried calling Alpine and though it's Memorial day I figured someone had to work today. Other then the aftermarket alarm system and the starter this theft light situation has me confused. I know it should at least flash but it isn't. I'll go through the fuses and stuff again but for all intensive purposes I am lost. I've checked around and haven't found someone that has run into this exactly.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Well there's good news. I rearranged some things and it starts but then immediately dies. but that's from using a remote starter switch straight to the starter. So I have some interior wiring to deal with. Next is the fuel rail doesn't seem to be getting fuel and when it does start I hear a loud tapping. I can't get it to idle and there are numerous reasons on what that is. that Tapping is what worries me... and the electrical that is stopping it from starting too. Also there seems to be an oil leak on the driver's side near the headers though I can't see exactly where.
 

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#18 ·
It was starting for a while but now since I had to take a break due to all this bad weather we've been having. Now it starts and immediately dies. Fuel pump still seems to be doing it's job, made sure no hoses were clogged and made sure there wasn't anything bad in the tank and added new fuel. Checked all injectors and they seem to be good even though I plan on swapping those after I PI convert it. Still is leaking oil from what seems to be the valve cover but I haven't replaced that because if i'm gonna do the Head swap i'll have to buy that again. but what I wanna make sure is that this engine runs consistently at best and it's worth what I want to sink into it. Any ideas. ODB scanner shows jack...
 
#19 ·
Now it starts and immediately dies.
For a motor that starts but immediately dies it would be handy to know IF the motor dies when the PCM switches from "open loop" to "closed loop" operating mode. If so, some of the things to check include:
  • MAF sensor issue such that the MAF is way under reporting air flow
  • Vacuum leak between MAF and throttle body. Such that the unmetered air causes the MAF value to be under reported.
  • A problem with the IAC valve
  • A problem with the fuel pressure rail sensor or fuel pressure regulator.
  • Low battery/alternator voltage. Or excessive AC ripple (bad diode) from the alternator.
  • O2 sensor feedback out of range.

Check that the fuel pressure intake vacuum reference line is connected and leak free. Inspect the line for any evidence of raw gas.

Double check that the battery and charging system is in tip top shape.

What happens if the MAF is disconnected for a test?

What happens if the throttle is held partially open?
 
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