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Need some help identifying shelby gt 350

2K views 13 replies 4 participants last post by  Gt350HR 
#1 ·
Hey all,

So i am brand new here but wanted to see if anyone could help me make a decision on whether or not to buy the shell of what seems to be a shelby gt350. There are no VIN #'s , no title, no docs whatsoever. All the signs of a shelby gt50 are there in whats left of the frame. The holes in the quarter panel are there for the brake vents. the windows are cut for the plexi glass inserts, the original color is correct for a shelby, there was a badge right where the shelby gt 350's had a badge next to the right tail light and white pinstriping is evident. I know that without a vin to prove it is a shelby there would be no way to prove this car is worth anything. Do you all have any sort of experience tracking down car records? It is a 66 fast back with no front end and no doors and a lot of rust. the seller is asking 1200, which in my opinion is cheap if I can somehow track down the title for this car, so it may be worth it. The project would require a full rotisserie and a lot of time. What are your guys thoughts?
 

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#3 ·
Based on what I can see , I think you have what is left of a real one. Obviously it was red originally and looks to have had white roof stripes. That rules out a Hertz rental , but without the front end you are fighting an uphill battle. Popular "lore" says there is a "secret" vin that law enforcement officials "only" know of which "could" potentially get you the original vin. beyond that you would have to contact Howard Pardee with the Shelby American Automobile Club ( SAAC) and work with him on sheet metal date codes to find the "range" of potential cars it could be. You might end up finding out that the front end is an existing car already. Back searching with "locals" as to who might have had the car previously would be another way to go. often people remember "a kid with a car" or "that red one with the stripes" that could give you a name to go on. I do see the 1/2" hole on the dash for the tach wires and it too is in the right spot. It will be expensive to do right , but worth it in the end.
Randy
 
#4 ·
Ok, IMHO, I would not, ever, ever assume anything...and here's why................


Up through the 60's & early70's, vehicles were not ordered as they are today. Yes, if you ordered package"X" it would come with 1, 2, 3.....but, you could also deletespecific items within the package. As an example, our mustang (which has beenin the family since it was new), when ordered as a GT, my parents really didn'tlike "trumpet tips" through the rear pan so the dual exhaust was a"delete" (as shown on the original order papers which we still have)and upon delivery, it was off to the muffler shop for a set of pipes.......avery common practice- which because of this it is not impossible, but I willsay it is much more "challenging" to not so much verify something isa factory GT by having all of the items listed, but more difficult to verify itis not..and Ford was not the only one doing this either, a very common practiceby the Big 3.


Dealers also dealt with qualitycontrol issues....and had a pre-approved budget by the mfg's to effectrepairs....there are documented stories and pics where mustangs were deliveredto the dealers with the trunk lids wrapped and sitting in the backseat....Customers could also pay an additional fee (typically $300) for thedealer to "special prep" the car prior to customer delivery...whileeach had a different name they called it...basically the dealer had the mech'sgo through the cars from nose to tail checking every single part, fit &finish...making it right. These cars typically looked, ran like fine tunedmachines as a result...you could see, feel the difference.


My neighbor worked for GM inLong Beach, Ca back in the 70's, and clearly recalls special order deletes,hand carried orders to install "X" cylinder head on a particular car-he also recalls there was seldom more than a week went by that the cylinderheads didn't change (as far as port matching/sizing/shape)- as it was alldependent on the supplier and that varied by each shipment….or someone wantedtheir pickup painted the color that was offered on a particular car…..not aproblem as long as it was built at the same plant (for an extra charge ofcourse)- which also explains a few very, very ID pates.

While it is a wonderful thing to have a variety of people who have done suchexhaustive research on these and other vehicles, we must also remember that thecustomer service and deliverables of the time were much, much different thantoday and paperwork, was, well, not the focus. This has lead to benefit us(especially in Calif) who became exempted from smog testing/cert because of theabsence (disposal/non-retention) of documentation of our cars, but in allreality, even if all the paperwork did exist, it wouldn't do little to validatemuch more than is known today about the cars- because the paperwork was not apriority, delivering what the customer wanted was.

There were also 4 -289’s….including the common (HiPo) 271 hp, and a 306 hp only available in the GT350R,producing 350 horsepower, weighed 75 fewer pounds, and featured an enlargedfuel tank (34 gallon vs. 18) for racing. With “special heads”, a super-dutysuspension, racing tires and more, it was offered in 1965 only...........and with regards to the 4 speeds alone, I met a Ford tranny engineer from that era many years ago, he advised that with all the combinations that were available both from the factory, dealer and aftermarket, there were over 200+ variations of the top & side loader transmissions.


Not to mention, regardless of the "PR" documents, in September 1967, 100% of Shelby GT350 production was pulled from Shelby's shop (both because he was kicked out of the LAX facility & his relationship with Ford was not good) moved to the A.O.Smith Company of Ionia, Michigan, under 100% Ford control. Shelby American hadsubstantially less involvement after this time….in essence they were paid forthe use of their name…no more, no less.
 
#6 ·
Not without doing my homework. "I" would have made a call to my friend of 42 years , Howard Pardee and tell him what (you) "I" stumbled on along with location and any past history , lore on it. All of this would be to see if the "aprons" were in fact "still out there" on another car. At My age and with my lack of body work prowess , "I" would probably pass but find another friend who want to take on such an involved project. BUT it would all boil down to establishing what car it IS .If the front end is driving around as you noted, the next question is how is that represented in the registry? Would that "owner" be interested in actually owning the rest of the car ? Legitimate title is an absolute MUST whether you get it with the purchase OR can obtain it through " detective work". Without that or a clear cut way to obtain it, you might as well pass. it would be a BIG uphill battle as you can tell by the responses on other sites. NO one at this point sees what I see that proves it is real. I don't plan on educating them either. ANY expert will know it is real , anyone who says it isn't , isn't an expert. PERIOD
 
#7 ·
NO one at this point sees what I see that proves it is real. I don't plan on educating them either. ANY expert will know it is real , anyone who says it isn't , isn't an expert. PERIOD
Although there are many people especially in SoCal who claim to be experts.....they are not IMHO, especially considering that CS built the cars for about 2 years at their shop and according to the numerous mechanics who actually worked at the shop (which was a revolving door), there were many "special" orders that were done......and if you knew the mechanic that was working on your 'special order" (such as we did- ie my family), the documentation (visual or therewise) is, well subject to debate.......just like the dealers who were authorized by Ford to convert cars on their lots to GT's......many dealers either ordered the dual pipe option, etc.or the car was ordered stripped and the dealer installed the Ford/Shelby parts........now considering that many of the dealers doing this replicated the templates for holes, brackets, etc......and there were times that CS's shop made brackets work because of availability issues......I just have to chuckle when "experts" state...that bracket is not "concourse correct", etc.....Heck, the rotation of the floor staff was soo great, the even started sub-contracting out to local shops to provide mechanics as needed.....
 
#8 ·
I've been involved with the GT350s since they first came out and I still learn new things everyday. Are you actually saying that Ford dealers converted Mustangs to GT350s? I hope I am misunderstanding you.
 
#9 ·
Yes.........although not sold officially as GT350's per seh......absolutely authorized by Ford.......including carb, intake, badging, stripes, exhaust, gauge pod, etc.......a very common practice that was started by the end of 1965....and you have to remember, it was a downtown Ford dealer who dropped the very 1st big block into a stang and again, all done with Ford's authorization.............and my family has a very long history in SoCal, new CS and our particular mustang which has been I the family since new, was ordered at Ira Escobar Ford, built in SJ, delivered to CS's shop at LAX (literally across the street from the dealer) and was modified by one of my dad's racing buds who although worked at CS's shop, was employed actually by a little shop operated by "Pop Jones"........ very well known in the racing world and IIRR, REM was the one who "coordinated this particular staffing"....especially after/when "Williams", VP of Ford IIRR, blew his top, came down to CS's shop direct, observed what was going on, directed CS to stay in his office and then spent a few days with the shop staff and as a group, got things organized and moving again............


The relationship with Ford was "icy" at best at this point, and considering when CS had the idea...his 1t stop was GM where he had significant relationships with the execs....they would not allow him past the lobby and refused to engage in any conversation........Chrysler, just chuckled at his phone call...since they had already been there & done that and Ford was CS's last option....considering they were hurting financially, they saw opportunity and jumped at it....by the time year 2 began, CS 's relationship with Ford, BW (and other suppliers) and the neighbors at LAX had all had it...........at the last even the delivered Ford production engines were "half-A$%^" assembled......body mods (which I have original pics of) were literally 'hacked up".....I mean ugly......IMHO, the shop staff IMHO was as unhappy (except for a few of CS's personal buds) as Ford and the suppliers..........
 
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#10 ·
Any "Mustang" with a GT350 or GT500 vin tag from SAI was built in Venice ( early '65 only)or at LAX. I was around then but was not aware of it being common practice for other shops to build them "with Ford's blessing" as you mention. Yes there were some early Cobras finished at other facilities. I have never heard (or seen) a Mustang done that way. SAI did a 427 conversion on a '66 Shelby and it was done at SAI. Several of the SAI guys that did the work are still around. The '67 was done at Mel Burns Ford in Long Beach. Shelby's contract with Ford began in '62 and was for 5 years ( the reason SAI was shut down at the end of '67) with many stipulations. A world championship was one of them. The stories you mention were in a book called The Cobra Story.
 
#11 ·
of course then you also know, that CS's shop had little to do with building the very 1st Cobra.......that was sub-contracted out to dean moon of Moon Racing in Santa Fe Springs (I'm sure that was before he moved to Norwalk, Ca).......Upon delivery to CS's shop, REM swapped out the parts he knew would not survive the racing environment and flew directly to AC to brief them on the build specs......


And I'm sure you're aware of the Contract that CS had with Ford........specifically, the other Ford sponsored teams when competing in the same races as the CS team cars, were required by contract to "surrender" the 1st two positions ahead of them to the CS cars...........this was also affirmed in numerous publications (including HRM- I still have a copy of that one!) and retirement press conferences that included the Holman-Moody team.........they were based out of Long Beach, Ca for many years......


This agreement was only applicable in the US...overseas (Europe in particular), CS's cobra's did not fair anywhere as well as they did in the US........and many were simply "left/abandoned" in Europe.............as CS himself stated in an on-air interview many years ago..."If we only had known what the value of these cars was going to be......................."


IMHO, the only cars of the 350GT's that one as an expert could really affirm (without original order, production docs0 would be the ones built by AO Smith..........which was given all the production by Ford by 1967 (pulled away from Shelby)
 
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