Newbie here looking for advice: buy or walk away...
Hi folks,
I'm new here. I don't even own a Mustang, but am currently looking.
Today I ran across an absolutely drop dead beautiful '65 fastback 2+2 today. The owner had a write up on the car. It went something like this...
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California built, Oregon car.
289 cu in engine has been rebuilt and has les than 15k miles. Profesionally rebuilt in the late '80s, balanced and blueprinted. Forged crank, pistons and rods. Stainless sodium filled valves, rebuilt 4 barrel carb. Edelbrock aluminum intake, new fuel pump, fuel tank and lines. Rebuilt by Bond's in Portland, OR.
4 speed transmission also rebuilt in the late '80s with NOS gears, new clutch with less than 10k miles.
Front suspension has been rebuilt with new tie rod ends, springs, shocks and bushings. Complete brake job. Interior completely restored with new seat foam, upolstery, carpeting, head liner, door skins and dash. New BF Godrich tires on Cragar wheels.
Frame/underbody has been stripped, treated and undercoated. Body was sanded down to bare metal, resealed, primed an painted. All original - No Bondo. All weather stripping, seals and moldings. New heater core and hoses. New battery.
Not installed but included is factory A/C which is 95% complete. Have the brackets and vents/dash cluster. Also have original radio. Many extra parts also...
$20k o.b.o.
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The owner was not present at the show so one of his employees was with the car.
I later called the owner. He described buying the car from a fella that moved around the country a lot and didn't want to move it again. It was a mess when he bought it. The engine and transmission rebuild was done by the previous owner when he lived on the west coast. The current owner runs a body shop so he did a full resto of the car.
So I get the VIN number and other codes and do some homework. I check 3 different internet sources and find that it was delivered to the west coast, but it should be a Grey Metallic, 200 cid I6, 3 speed with red interior. Now it's a blue, 289, 4 speed with black interior. Hmmmmmm.
This raises a lot of flags for me. Even though it looks good cosmetically, I worry about the change in running gear. I know an I6 to V8 swap can be done. Maybe that's what the front end work was for. Sounds like it was the previous owner that did the swap. Note to self...Could the current owner be unaware of the swap?
If the engine swap was done properly with changes made to all the stuff that needs to change, what would you consider to be a fair price for something like this?
My little voice is saying, "Walk away". Your opinions and advice would be very much appreciated.
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Mark
'90 GT, 306, Edelbrock Performer rpm upper and lower and Performer heads with Crane 1.6 rockers, 24#, CAI, MSD dizzy, Accel coil, aluminum rad & driveshaft, 3.55, 5 bolt, Khumo 245/45/17 all around on Cobra R wheels.
Mark
'90 GT, 306, Edelbrock Performer rpm upper and lower and Performer heads with Crane 1.6 rockers, 24#, CAI, MSD dizzy, Accel coil, aluminum rad & driveshaft, 3.55, 5 bolt, Khumo 245/45/17 all around on Cobra R wheels.
Seen this post over on the VMF....what you have here is an owner who knows ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
He sees 'certain' mustangs on sale in newspapers, ebay, forums, side of the ride, car shows that bring in large dollar amounts and thinks to himself "My car looks so much better than those do, it should be able to sell it for alot".
I would not pay more than 12k for that car as pictured. It is not rare, the market price for mustangs is set as a function of what the car came with and the condition it is now.
what that means is:
A 6 banger is worth 'x'
A v8 is worth f(x)
A 6 banger restored and/or modified (like with a v8) is worth x + y
A v8 restored and/or moified is worth f(x)+y
If I were to put it up for sale tommorrow, I would be happy if I was able to sell it for $20k. It is after all only a c code mustang that I have converted to 4 wheel disc brake, put in a 9 inch rear, have a 408 cubic inch motor, AOd tranny, restored the interior a bit, put a brand new suspension and driveline into....you get the idea.
I did all the work myself and still spent more than it was worth. I suspect this car is for sale by someone who is rying to get all their money out of it that they have spent doing it.....or at least re-couping a large portion...personally....I would pass on this one.
$20k is way too much for that car. $12k-$14k is a more reasonable price. That car is far from rare. Plus it originally being a I6 car means there's no originallity value to it. But, to answer your one concern, the V8 suspension swap has been done on that car already. You can tell because I6 cars had 4 lug hubs, where the V8 cars have 5 lug hubs.
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"If a man hasn't found something worth dying for, he isn't fit to live." - Martin Luther King Jr.
Also note that if the car was an original factory air car the console would be shortened under the dash. I also see that it doesn't have the correct gauge cluster for 65 non-GT. The one in it is 66 or 65 GT. FYI
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65-2&2, 63 Falcon vert, 32 coupe, 76f-250 4&4,72 Ranchero GT-Some is good,more is better,and too much is just enough.
My opinion is walk away from this deal. 20K is to much to pay for a pieced together car. If it was orginal car maybe 20K. this car is only worth between 10/12K if that. Their are more cars worth looking at out there. Don't fall in love with the first one you see no matter how good it looks or sounds. Be aware of want to be's. Good luck in your hunting. Keep a watchful eye.
Thanks for all the feedback. The response from all over has been terrific.
As some of you have noticed, I’ve posted this same question on other forums. Sorry if it seems a little impersonal but typing is not my strong suite…cut n paste is . In the same light, I’ve submitted this reply to each board just to thank everybody in the online Mustang community for all the much needed advice and support. It’s been very much appreciated.
Although most advice so far has been to walk away and wait for something else or a lower price would make the car a more reasonable possibility, I’ve continued to pursue the issue. Why? Simple geography!
My location makes it difficult to just wait for another one to come along. I’m in a relatively remote Canadian city, directly across the border from the northern most tip of Michigan. There are no possibilities locally. Everything else I’ve found over the last ½ year or so have been at least 6 to 8 hours away, both in Canada and the US. This one is only 1½ hours from me.
It’s really depressing to read the classic car trading publications and surf the online ads only to discover that 99.9% of what interests me might as well be on the other side of the planet. Sure, I’m willing to wait and consider anything within a days drive, but such distances make the research and inspection parts of the buying process very difficult.
Question…how does one deal with buying a car that’s so far away? Short of making the drive to see the car, how do you verify that it’s what you are looking for, beyond the initial check of the VIN number? That makes for a lot of driving for me since the closest reasonable possibilities are at least 6 hours away. I have yet to run across anything closer. I suppose the answer is pretty obvious, huh? Then again somebody out there may have a revelation that I haven’t thought of.
FYI, here’s an update of my correspondence with the owner…
Quote:
Yes, I do have more questions. Unfortunately they're not the kind I was hoping to ask. You've got a much different car from what the VIN describes.
Are you aware that your blue, 289, 4 speed with black interior started life as a gray, inline 6, 3 speed with red interior?
I asked your buddy that was showing the car if the 289 was the original engine. He said no but that the engine in the car was the correct type for the car. That was ok by me. I'm not one of those buyers that's looking for a numbers matching car, but to find out that it's been through such a dramatic change spooks me.
The color is not the issue with me. The engine change is. Installing a V8 into a car designed and built for a 6 is not as simple as dropping in the engine. While researching the VIN number, I ran across this web site http://members.cox.net/daugherty_pgd...I6-V8-Swap.htm that describes what's involved with the swap.
From your description of the car's history, you bought the car already modified. I'm not sure if there's any way we can confirm if that swap was done completely and correctly. I'm not sure if I want to proceed any further. I am currently seeking more advice from other's more knowledgeable about Mustangs and this particular type of engine swap.
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Hello again. I am aware that my Mustang was originally gray...I removed all the glass, doors, trunk lid, hood and fenders, hand sanded them all down to bare metal, resealed the metal and painted the car. (this is when I found the true color) Reassembled the car with all new gaskets and seals. I am also aware that the car began life as a 6 cylinder. I have checked the websites you listed and found that my Mustang (by visual inspection) has had all the updates/swaps performed. The transmission I was not sure of its originality-however I can tell you that this vehicle has at least 12,000 miles on it from the time of the engine and transmission replacement/rebuild from documents from the person I purchased the car from. I do know that you will look long and hard to find a 1965 Mustang Fastback 2+2 that is as clean, rust free, straight and in as good as shape as this car is. There is no bondo/plastic in this car. I understand your hesitation and that is to be expected. I love this car and the more I drive it, the less I want to part with it...Good luck in your search and thanks for the call...
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Thanks for the reply. I haven't completely given up on your car yet, although a couple other possibilities have crept into the picture. Have you sold it yet?
I've been looking for advice everywhere I can find it. I've spoken to a couple local fellas and I've even posted my questions on some Mustang discussion forums on the internet. Having started this search with only a little knowledge of Mustangs, I've learned a lot. As I said before, I'm not one of those guys looking for a numbers matching car. Solid, drivable, reliable is what I'm in the market for. The correct cosmetics would be a plus. From what you've said and what I've seen, your car fits that description pretty well.
From what I've learned and the advice I've been given over the last few days, unfortunately your $20k price tag is too high both for me personally and the car itself. I understand your desire to recoup your time and hardware in the car. I don't doubt your word about the work you've done and the effort and time you've put into it. I also need to consider my budget being in Canadian dollars as well as the taxes I would pay if I were to import a car such as yours. The advice I'm hearing is to either walk away or that a reasonable value for such a car, regardless of the quality of the restoration/modification, is more in the $12k to $14 range.
I hope you don't mind me providing the details of your info letter in the online forums. The more info I can provide them, the better able they are to come back with educated answers. My only intention was to gather information.
From $20k to ~$13k is a pretty dramatic drop, so I doubt you're willing to consider such a change. I just thought you'd be interested in the info. With the off chance that such a drop is a possibility, then I'd consider going further and visiting you for another more detailed inspection. Let me know. If not, then I wish you all the best. I appreciate you taking time to answer my questions.
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Mark
'90 GT, 306, Edelbrock Performer rpm upper and lower and Performer heads with Crane 1.6 rockers, 24#, CAI, MSD dizzy, Accel coil, aluminum rad & driveshaft, 3.55, 5 bolt, Khumo 245/45/17 all around on Cobra R wheels.
There are companies that will go out and inspect vehicles for you. It is done on e-bay all the time. I do not know the price for sure but I think it be in the range of 300.00 to 500.00. If you are really interested in the car it my be worth it. They check for rust and over all how the car is put together and than give you a report on the condition. You know if you really want that car and it suits you and you can live with the price than you should do what you think is best for you. It may be a very nice car and if you fall in love with it and it checks out as a real nice car. Do It. Again I think this person is asking a little to much for the vehicle. Everyone always thinks that their cars are worth more than they are. I have a friend in our club that wants 35K for his k- code 65 coupe. Yes its a nice car but no one is going to give him that kind of money. Hey what ever you do good luck.
What do you want to do with the car? Will it be for your personal enjoyment and maybe a few local car shows and part time driver that you intend to keep for a while? Or will it be considered an investment that you hope to cash in on in a year or so? If it’s an investment then politely say, “No thank you”, and walk away. However if it something you’ve always wanted and plan on keeping and enjoying tinkering with, consider it. If you, like many people always wanted hi-po ’65 2+2 with 4-speed, they are hard to find at that price. With “matching numbers” the prices soar. If you found a battered hulk of a 65/66 6-cylinder 2+2 and did all the work to convert the car over to what it is now, it would cost you what the guy is asking or even more if you had to farm out most of the work.
Price is relative to what you can afford or are willing to pay and want. If all of what you’ve posted is true, it’s been rebuilt to better standards that what Ford originally built in 1965. If it were me and I bought the vehicle, I seriously consider continuing the “clone” work and add the body parts and pieces to give it the 65/66 Shelby look and have a really cool part time driver/local club show car/ and all-round fun machine I could enjoy for years to come. I’ve seen Shelby “clones” going for $25K+ lately. Good luck with your decision and I hope you find what your looking for.
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Bill
1970 Mach 1 w/351C-4V, Shakerhood and 5-speed
2003 Mach 1 w/281-4 Valve, Shakerhood, and 5-speed
I agree with some of the earlier posters, 20K is too much for that car. It is beautiful, I'll give it that, but personaly I wouldn't pay that much. If all the information is checking out correctly, then it might be worth it. By the sounds of things there's little else that needs to be done on the car at this point in time and the maintenence and upkeep will all be simple little things for some time to come. The biggest part of this though is that it is you buying the car and no one else. I understand wanting the information, but in the long run, I say go with your instinct. If you're leery of buying it because of some of the changes, then pass it up and keep looking, but if you really want that car, then try to get the price to something reasonable, (14-16k, considering what he put into it) and buy it.
Newbie here looking for advice: buy or walk away... 
Sure, I’m willing to wait and consider anything within a days drive, but such distances make the research and inspection parts of the buying process very difficult.
Question…how does one deal with buying a car that’s so far away? Short of making the drive to see the car, how do you verify that it’s what you are looking for, beyond the initial check of the VIN number? That makes for a lot of driving for me since the closest reasonable possibilities are at least 6 hours away. I have yet to run across anything closer. I suppose the answer is pretty obvious, huh? Then again somebody out there may have a revelation that I haven’t thought of.
