AFM Web

Go Back   Ford Mustang Forums > Mustang Forums > Classic Mustang > Classic Tech
Welcome to AllFordMustangs.com. We look forward to you registering on our forum and making your first post.
Introductions| Mustang Lounge | Classic Talk | Classic Tech | Mustang Tech | Tech | Racing | Regional

Reply
 
Old 07-26-2008   #1 (permalink)
Wifes66 is offline Apprentice

Classic Member


Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 78 Threads: 13
 Wifes66's Country Flag  View Wifes66's 6 photos  View Wifes66's HomePage
D/FW Texas   Texas
Default C4 Trans Gear Selector Shaft/Throttle Valve Shaft Leak SOLUTION!

This is a pretty long post but I feel it is informative and of a great benefit to those with early Mustangs that are tired transmission fluid stains on their driveway. Take from this what you will but it worked for me. If you feel unqualified to perform this repair / modification then print this off and hand it to your transmission shop along with the keys to your car. It shouldn’t be any more expensive than the cost to replace the gear selector shaft / throttle valve shaft seals without the modification.

Well, I have finally, after 9 months, reached a point in my restoration where I could install all the vital fluids, fire it up and check for leaks. I am trying to resurrect the existing engine and transmission without a complete overhaul. I replaced all the easy seals and gaskets during the process but ended up with two leaks anyway. One was a core plug in the back of the right cylinder head which I made short work of and the other was at the Gear Selector (GS) shaft / Throttle Valve (TV) shaft area. I did a little home work and found several forums (not all Mustangs) that discussed this leak on C4 transmissions. While I found no real answers to this common problem, it did help in the diagnosis of my car. This is the only C4 I have ever worked on other than fluid changes but I would guess they all have the same problem to one extent or another that mine did. I have included diagrams and photos for your viewing pleasure as well as a discussion of the mechanism.

FROM THE FORUMS:
This is what I took from the discussions and I would like to dispel a few myths. I am not saying the following solutions are wrong as long as they worked to the posters satisfaction. They just didn’t seem like reasonable solutions after my diagnosis of the problem.

“The TV shaft nut is found to be loose.” Mine was, and if yours is, and the shaft binds when you tighten the nut, you will need to perform the modification I have documented below.

“Add a washer under the nut to seal the o-ring.” This will not work because the o-ring bore has a depth of .129” and the o-ring is only .105” thick. The washer will contact the GS shaft before it compresses the o-ring. The o-ring is not designed to be compressed anyway. When properly installed, it is captured but not compressed.

Transmission is over full. That very well may be true. I checked my reproduction dip stick against the original and the tubes were equal length but the stick was about ¾” too short. So mine was no doubt over full but still this is not the true cause of this leak. When the engine is shut off, the fluid drains back out of the converter and the fluid level raises in the pan and likely above the level of the GS/TV shafts. I reconditioned my original dip stick for a more accurate fluid level check.

“It only leaks after I turn off the engine”. Again probably true for the reasons stated above. But I have spent considerable time on the underbody restoration of my car and I will not accept any leaks whatsoever. Trans fluid burned on exhaust pipes is just nasty.

“You have to remove the valve body to replace the GS shaft seal.” Sad but true. However, it is no big deal. It has like 7 bolts and no springs or balls are going to jump out at you. If you can change the filter and fluid you can perform this modification. Getting the two shafts in and out is a little tricky in that one installs from the outside and one installs from the inside simultaneously. I did mine with the full exhaust and everything else still in the car so access is really not an issue.

“I put a pan under mine to catch the fluid when I shut it off”. PLEASE!

THE SOLUTION:

DISCLAIMER:
Perform this modification at your own risk! All information provided below was taken from my observations on my car. No other cars were studied and this problem may not be common across all C4 transmissions. (But I bet it is) Please consult your physician if you begin to feel faint, dizzy nauseous or drowsy while reading this thread.

I will cut directly to the chase on the solution and then explain later. THE GEAR SELECTOR SHAFT IS TOO LONG FOR THE THROTTLE VALVE SHAFT TO BE INSTALLED CORRECTLY. I don’t know if it was poorly engineered or if it was a quality control issue but it appears that a number of these (most) got out of the factory with mismatched or poorly machined parts. The solution is to simply grind away the threads on the GS shaft that extend past the 7/8” nut that holds it in the case. I actually had to grind part of the nut to get the proper clearance for the TV shaft. Study the attached diagram and you will see the unmodified shaft on top and the modified shaft on bottom. On the left side you will see the flaw in the o-ring bore that causes the leak. If the TV shaft does not extend far enough through the GS shaft the o-ring will try to seat on the “double D” of flat portions of the shaft creating a path for fluid to escape. On the right I have shown where the threads are too long on the top diagram and after removal on bottom diagram. This changes the orientation of the two shafts to each other. I assure you the engineers never intended for this mechanism to operate the way I have pictured it on top which is the way mine came apart. Please understand that I did not come to this conclusion lightly. One would think that internal transmission parts are machined properly from the factory but these are not. There just not. I very carefully studied the mechanism, and measured everything to be sure I wasn’t missing something and that this modification would have no ill effects on the operation of the transmission. I studied each component of the mechanism to determine its intended design, position, and operation. I would like to walk you through a discussion of my findings. You have already read my conclusions so if you would like you can stop here and just fix your leak but I would like to prove up my solution with a body of evidence.

PHOTOS 1,2,3
The first photo shows the external end of the TV shaft. The end is machined to a “Double D” shape to secure the external lever. The lever connects to the throttle linkage by an adjustable cable. The red arrow points to a raised portion of the shaft designed to provide interference fit so the lever actually wedges onto the shaft. The lever will index and freely slide down the treaded part of the shaft and half way down the smooth part of the shaft where it begins to wedge. The nut will push the lever the rest of the way down eliminating any free play in the lever regardless of the nut. The 2nd shot shows the orientation of the lever to the shaft the way it came out of my car. The external lever was not fully seated on the shaft and the nut was loose. The lever would still rotate the shaft due to the “double D” shape and it wouldn’t fall off the car because of the nut. At least not until the nut backed off. So away we go with the kick down working, transmission leak and all. The 3rd photo shows the lever fully and properly seated onto the shaft the way it was intended to be installed once in the car. I know, the lever is backwards but it still demonstrates my point. The point is that the engineer intended for this lever to swedge and fully seat onto the shaft and the retaining nut to be torqued down. Not left loose so the shaft could still rotate in the bore. And the loose nut has nothing to do with the leak by the way.

PHOTOS 4,5,6
The 4th photo shows the distance between the properly installed external lever and the fixed internal lever on the TV shaft. The distance is 3.035”. Because the internal lever is welded to the shaft, and the other end is machined to accept the external lever, there is no way to alter this part. It can’t be made longer so any changes must come from the GS shaft through which the TV shaft rotates. The 5th photo shows the length of the GS shaft and it measures 3.156”. This shaft needs to be shortened at least .121” to allow the TV shaft external lever to fully seat without binding on the GS shaft. This is why you may have found the nut loose on your TV lever. If tightened, the shaft will bind and not rotate. The 6th shot shows the unmodified GS shaft and the orientation of the TV shaft at the o-ring bore. You can see that no part of the round TV shaft is protruding into the o-ring bore. Only the “Double D” is showing and that is what causes the leak. The o-ring can still seat against the GS shaft bore like this but will not seat on the flat sides of the TV shaft and this is the root cause of this troublesome leak.

PHOTOS 7,8
These just show the o-ring bore which is .129” deep and the 8th shows the o-ring at .105” thick. This proves that a big flat washer is not the answer. Even if you tried to double stack two o-rings and a flat washer it would still leak through the threads of the shaft.

PHOTOS 9,10,11
After realizing what needed to be done to fix the leak, I wanted to be sure the internal TV lever would still contact the TV valve plunger in the valve body. The 9th photo shows the GS/TV assembly as it is oriented in the valve body. The lower lever is the gear selector lever and modifying the shaft will not change this levers orientation to the valve body. The gear selector lever is captured by (under) the large 7/8” nut and is indexed to the shaft by another “Double D” machining operation on the GS shaft. Only the TV lever will change positions. So the question that remains is what effects will this have. The 10th shot shows the wear pattern on the throttle valve plunger in the valve body and the wear is to the inboard side of the valve (red arrow). The 11th shot is of the TV shaft internal lever (fuzzy I know) and the wear pattern is to the outboard side of the lever. Not that it really matters but this lever has been riding on the valve off center to the inboard side since it was new. This told me I can easily move the lever outboard and still contact the valve properly. I know it sounds scary to go grinding on an internal transmission part. But understand that the .121” the lever needs to move outboard to make the external o-ring seat properly is only just shy of 1/8”. If it makes you feel better you can bend the lever slightly to center up the contact point on the plunger but it probably won’t need it. Mine didn’t. Understand that this lever only moves just slightly and only when you push the gas pedal all the way to the floor to hit passing gear. The rest of the time it sits idle waiting for its moment in the sun.

PHOTOS 12,13,14,15
The 12th photo shows the modified GS shaft after grinding. I used a simple die grinder on it for an overall length of 3.028”. This gave me around .007” clearance for the TV shaft to freely rotate inside of it with the external lever torqued to specs while still capturing the o-ring inside the bore. The 13th shot shows the new orientation of the TV shaft to the GS shaft at the o-ring bore. You can see that the round part of the shaft is now visible. The 14th shot shows the assembly with the o-ring installed and the o-ring is now in full contact with the bore and the shaft keeping all the fluid inside the transmission where it belongs. The 15th shot is of the whole mechanism ready to go back in the car but with the diagram that makes it the 16th shot so I couldn't upload it.

Oh, one more thing. I saw no evidence that the Gear Selector Shaft seal had leaked although I replaced it while I was there. The new seal is a nice rubber coated seal that went in very smoothly from the outside of the case. Polish all of the areas of the shafts where the seals ride with 400 grit sandpaper, clean and lube with white grease before installation. Your leak should now be fixed.

I hope this may help someone.

Steve
Attached Thumbnails
c4-transmission-gear-selector-shaft-throttle-valve-shaft-leak-solution-326561547.jpg  c4-transmission-gear-selector-shaft-throttle-valve-shaft-leak-solution-326591061.jpg  c4-transmission-gear-selector-shaft-throttle-valve-shaft-leak-solution-326561612.jpg  c4-transmission-gear-selector-shaft-throttle-valve-shaft-leak-solution-326591106.jpg  c4-transmission-gear-selector-shaft-throttle-valve-shaft-leak-solution-326591166.jpg  

c4-transmission-gear-selector-shaft-throttle-valve-shaft-leak-solution-326561516.jpg  c4-transmission-gear-selector-shaft-throttle-valve-shaft-leak-solution-326558466.jpg  c4-transmission-gear-selector-shaft-throttle-valve-shaft-leak-solution-326558565.jpg  c4-transmission-gear-selector-shaft-throttle-valve-shaft-leak-solution-326558628.jpg  c4-transmission-gear-selector-shaft-throttle-valve-shaft-leak-solution-326558715.jpg  

c4-transmission-gear-selector-shaft-throttle-valve-shaft-leak-solution-326558737.jpg  c4-transmission-gear-selector-shaft-throttle-valve-shaft-leak-solution-326558825.jpg  c4-transmission-gear-selector-shaft-throttle-valve-shaft-leak-solution-326558902.jpg  c4-transmission-gear-selector-shaft-throttle-valve-shaft-leak-solution-326559009.jpg  c4-transmission-gear-selector-shaft-throttle-valve-shaft-leak-solution-326559115.jpg  

__________________
To each problem exists a solution...Now think!
Wifes66 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2008   #2 (permalink)
tripleblack is online now Forums Moderator

4.6L Member


Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 14,660 Threads: 693
 tripleblack's Country Flag  View tripleblack's 48 photos
Atlanta   Georgia
Default CR Info

Excellent info - this would have been a great help to me once upon a time!

Thanks for sharing.
__________________
tripleblack

"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
tripleblack is online now  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2008   #3 (permalink)
Wifes66 is offline Apprentice

Classic Member


Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 78 Threads: 13
 Wifes66's Country Flag  View Wifes66's 6 photos  View Wifes66's HomePage
D/FW Texas   Texas
Default

Thanks Tripleblack,

I was a little surprised I didn't get more replys on this one. I googled this leak and found a bunch of threads on this and other sites about this problem. It worked for me, mabey it will help others.

Thanks again,

Steve
__________________
To each problem exists a solution...Now think!
Wifes66 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2008   #4 (permalink)
tripleblack is online now Forums Moderator

4.6L Member


Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 14,660 Threads: 693
 tripleblack's Country Flag  View tripleblack's 48 photos
Atlanta   Georgia
Default Too Good

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wifes66 View Post
Thanks Tripleblack,

I was a little surprised I didn't get more replys on this one. I googled this leak and found a bunch of threads on this and other sites about this problem. It worked for me, mabey it will help others.

Thanks again,

Steve
LOL, your job was TOO good!

It was apparent that the documentation and pics really showed the job - it looked like a piece from a magazine.

LOTS of people read it, and I suspect more than a few used it to help them out of a jam.

My next project is liable to be an early Mustang resto-mod, with an auto tranny (left knee is packing it in, time to sell the 5 speed).
__________________
tripleblack

"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
tripleblack is online now  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2008   #5 (permalink)
Wifes66 is offline Apprentice

Classic Member


Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 78 Threads: 13
 Wifes66's Country Flag  View Wifes66's 6 photos  View Wifes66's HomePage
D/FW Texas   Texas
Default Just Noticed

Just noticed you are the forums moderator.

Pleasure to make your acquaintance. Has to be a thankless job.

Quote:
LOL, your job was TOO good!
Good enough for a sticky?

Steve
__________________
To each problem exists a solution...Now think!
Wifes66 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2008   #6 (permalink)
steve sturgin is offline Made Member

Classic Member


Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 322 Threads: 11
 steve sturgin's Country Flag
Auckland
Default

Fantastic article !
steve sturgin is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008   #7 (permalink)
tripleblack is online now Forums Moderator

4.6L Member


Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 14,660 Threads: 693
 tripleblack's Country Flag  View tripleblack's 48 photos
Atlanta   Georgia
Default Classic Tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wifes66 View Post
Just noticed you are the forums moderator.

Pleasure to make your acquaintance. Has to be a thankless job.



Good enough for a sticky?

Steve
OK, thought it over, stuck it. LOTS of folks can use this to help with C4 projects.
__________________
tripleblack

"You can never be free until you let yourself go."

Last edited by tripleblack; 08-06-2008 at 08:43 PM.
tripleblack is online now  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2008   #8 (permalink)
stanged1970 is offline Apprentice

2.3L Member
Classic Member


Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 136 Threads: 28
 stanged1970's Country Flag
Albuquerque   New Mexico
Default

This definitely deserves a sticky.
stanged1970 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2008   #9 (permalink)
Wifes66 is offline Apprentice

Classic Member


Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 78 Threads: 13
 Wifes66's Country Flag  View Wifes66's 6 photos  View Wifes66's HomePage
D/FW Texas   Texas
Default Thanks to all

Thanks to all!

I have never had a sticky before. I was sort of kidding when I suggested it. I did work pretty hard at documenting my findings so it could help someone else down the road and now it will be easy for them to find.

Thanks again,

Steve
__________________
To each problem exists a solution...Now think!
Wifes66 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2008   #10 (permalink)
tripleblack is online now Forums Moderator

4.6L Member


Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 14,660 Threads: 693
 tripleblack's Country Flag  View tripleblack's 48 photos
Atlanta   Georgia
Default Stuck

We don't get many articles this detailed, with documentation and pics. I have mentioned this sort of advice to people many times (jot down you steps and mis-steps, take pics, do the research), but its rare to see it presented in a neat package.

From my point of view, helping each other with our cars is the primary function of AFM. I'm always amazed how many different people with good information are willing to share.
__________________
tripleblack

"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
tripleblack is online now  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2008   #11 (permalink)
Wifes66 is offline Apprentice

Classic Member


Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 78 Threads: 13
 Wifes66's Country Flag  View Wifes66's 6 photos  View Wifes66's HomePage
D/FW Texas   Texas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tripleblack View Post
I'm always amazed how many different people with good information are willing to share.
I worked on cars proffessionally for a long time and then I made a career change and was out of it for a long time. Only in the last 5 years have I devoted my attention to auto restoration which I never did much of as a pro mechanic. After work the last thing I wanted to do was mess with cars ya know. The thing I am most impressed with now is how easy it is to obtain information over the internet. Back in the day you had magazines and stuff but most performace information was sort of black magic if you know what I mean. I have never worked on many Fords and now if I need to know something, I just type it in at AFM before work and by the time I get home I at least some kind of an answer.

How great is that!

Steve
__________________
To each problem exists a solution...Now think!
Wifes66 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2008   #12 (permalink)
tripleblack is online now Forums Moderator

4.6L Member


Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 14,660 Threads: 693
 tripleblack's Country Flag  View tripleblack's 48 photos
Atlanta   Georgia
Default Got your back

It IS great.

Every time I try to help out someone (often some kid just learning) with advice, somewhere in the back of my mind I'm hoping that when the day comes and I'm banging my head against a wall with a problem, someone will take time out of their busy day and help me out.

Bread on the waters - karma - whatever you want to call it.

It really DOES come back, and often 10 fold.
__________________
tripleblack

"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
tripleblack is online now  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2008   #13 (permalink)
Wifes66 is offline Apprentice

Classic Member


Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 78 Threads: 13
 Wifes66's Country Flag  View Wifes66's 6 photos  View Wifes66's HomePage
D/FW Texas   Texas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tripleblack View Post
Bread on the waters - karma - whatever you want to call it.

It really DOES come back, and often 10 fold.
You can say that again! My philosophy exactly.

Steve
__________________
To each problem exists a solution...Now think!
Wifes66 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2008   #14 (permalink)
steve sturgin is offline Made Member

Classic Member


Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 322 Threads: 11
 steve sturgin's Country Flag
Auckland
Default

My little darling seems to be moist in this area and provides a little puddle overnight after a small amount of driving.

Before I look at the operation you have so well described, I am thinking my leak could originate elsewhere:

There is a steel (approx 5mm dia') pipe directly above the gear shift that I guess is the overflow. It seems to be in a good place to drip on the GS shaft and various brackets and is moist around the end.

Should this "bleed or seep" or is it supposed to go somewhere else.

Thanks in advance.

Steve
steve sturgin is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2008   #15 (permalink)
Wifes66 is offline Apprentice

Classic Member


Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 78 Threads: 13
 Wifes66's Country Flag  View Wifes66's 6 photos  View Wifes66's HomePage
D/FW Texas   Texas
Default Diagnostic

Steve, I am far from an expert on these transmissions but that little pipe is bound to be the vent for the transmission case. It may have a baffle missing on the end (not sure if they even have a baffle) or the transmission may be running a little hot and spewing a little fluid there. A few drops or a little moisture there would not be abnormal, but enough to make a puddle every time you drive it would. An over full condition could cause that so check the fluid level hot first.

My leak was a constant drip and I had not (have not) yet driven the car. As a diagnostic, you can clean the entire area with spray carb cleaner and dry it with paper towels. Then stuff a bunch of paper towels around the vent to catch any fluid that may be coming from there (although the vent shouldn’t leak with the engine off anyway). Let it sit over night or a couple of days and see where the drop forms. If it is around the GS/TV lever arms you likely have the same leak I had. First check to see if the TV shaft nut is loose, (1/2” wrench) and if it is, tighten it and see if the TV lever will still rotate. If it won’t rotate, proceed as documented above.

Good luck,

Steve
__________________
To each problem exists a solution...Now think!
Wifes66 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
3.55's or 3.73's Tech Discussion. Mustang5oh 5.0L Tech 413 1 Week Ago 06:54 PM
Replacing my 3.08 with a 4.10 Ring Gear tbahl40 5.0L Tech 10 03-24-2009 01:20 PM
Questions about charge motion control valve delete plates FPEEK07GT 2005-2009 Mustang Talk 17 10-09-2007 07:54 PM
Leak at tail shaft Yoruai Classic Tech 3 09-07-2005 10:29 AM

sponsors

Mustang Photos
Add to Favorites    Link to us    Contact    Directory    Site Rules    Archive    Terms of Use    Privacy    Top Sites    RSS    Meet Our Sponsors    Advertise   
AllFordMustangs is not affiliated with or endorsed by Ford Motor Company. ©Copyright 2002-2010 All Auto Enthusiasts Network

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112