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Old 07-13-2009   #1 (permalink)
gavinbr is offline Rookie


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san mateo   California
Talking Whats the best clutch kit for my Mustang

Hello,

I'm in the preliminary stages of 1965 Mustang T5 installation. Moving out my current 3 speed.

My question for the forum is what kind of clutch kit should I be installing. This is for a daily driver?

I have done some researching on this site and others on the Internet for the optimum clutch disc, pressure plate combination.

What I have come with so far is very confusing. Everybody has an opinion of whats best.

I'm amazed that the number of clutches that are being installed and nobody has done any analysis of which are the best.

Along with the clutch kits that are available, from my count 20~30 manufactures and probably twice as many more suppliers of combinations of these.

My question then for the forum, whose are the best products. This for a daily driver, not a super blown 600HP car

This should also include........

1] Pilot bearing, is it Kevlar, needle bearing, brass, or steel.

2] Kevlar disc

3] Organic disc

4] Pressure plate

5] Throwout bearing

These are all very basic questions to ask, and quite a few have asked the same question but nobody responds positvely

Any thoughts would be appreciated

Thanks

Brian Wenyon
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Old 07-15-2009   #2 (permalink)
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PM Sent in response to your question to me.......

Clutches are a personal preference kind of thing. As you found out, if you ask 20 people for recommendations, you're going to get 20 different answers.
As far as which one is best, there truly is no way to answer that. What's best for a stock, un-modded daily driver is not going to be the same as what's best for the slightly modded or then again, the full blown drag racer, there simply isn't 1 clutch that works best in all situations.

The biggest and most important question I need answered from you is what flywheel are you using? Back in the days of the classic mustang, the flywheels were only drilled for the Borg & Beck type, 3 finger pressure plate (I'll explain that in a minute). Nowadays, modern cars use a diaphram style pressure plate and the 2 bolt patterns for them on the flywheel are not interchangeable.

As I mentioned, back in the days of the classic stang, Borg & Beck style clutches were what was used. The pressure plates had 3 large fingers that the throw out bearing contacted to release the disc. These B & B style covers are notoriously hard as far as pedal effort. To overcome the hard pedal effort the factory installed what is called an over center spring on the top of the clutch pedal, up under the dash. Contrary to popular belief, this over center spring actually assisted in depressing the clutch pedal. The mis-conception is that the over center spring was there to pull the clutch pedal back up off the floor...that is not correct.

The diaphram type clutches that is used in modern cars is different in that instead of 3 large fingers on the cover, they use 20 or so smaller fingers. The pedal effort was one of the main reasons for the switch. Diaphram type pressure plates are easy on the leg when it comes to pedal effort.

Discs come in a wide variety of compounds. The most common is copper organic. This is the material used in OEM cars and alot of aftermarket clutches. They wear really well and last a long time. They are not prone to chatter and can withstand a decent amount of power. The next step up from organic, would be Kevlar. Kevlar obviously is stronger than organic so it can withstand more power. They wear good, although not as good as organic. They are not prone to chatter, but some can. From there you move up to a mix of Dual friction, Carbon-Kevlar, Carbon-metallic and Ceramic. Dual friction is made so that 1 side of the disc is usually organic and the other side is usually either Carbon-Kevlar, Carbon-metallic or Ceramic. The high torque rated clutches (racing type clutches) are usually either Carbon-metallic or ceramic.

The pilot bearing is not as complicated. In the '60's and 70's a bronze or brass bushing was the norm. Modern cars started going with an actual bearing. The reason being is the improvement of the transmissions. The toploader 4 speeds from back in day weren't built to such tight tolerances as todays modern 5 speeds. An easy example of this would be to grab hold of the input shaft on a toploader, muncie or A833 and you can see how much play, or slop is in the input shaft. They move around quite a bit. Modern 5 speeds, like the T5 or the TKO have virtually no movement at all. A bushing tends to "waller" out over time, thus allowing for more movement of the input shaft whereas a bearing will not "waller" out and will stay true for the life of the bearing.

So, now that my little history lesson is done, , to answer your question, I really would like to know what you're doing for flywheel?
If you have a flywheel that has the diaphram style bolt pattern it, I would highly recommend a OEM type diaphram style clutch with an organic disc (based on your description of what you have). As for brand, well, there again, 20 different opinions are going to come into play. An OEM brand like Valeo, Luk, or Sachs is very easy pedal effort and will last a long time, assuming you setup the throw out bearing adjustment correctly. If you want to go with something that'll withstand a little more power than stock, in the event that you upgrade the motor down the road, I would recommend Spec. It is what I run in my daily driver.

Let me know if you have any more specific questions.




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Old 07-15-2009   #3 (permalink)
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Great response Richard....
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Old 07-15-2009   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rj8806 View Post
The biggest and most important question I need answered from you is what flywheel are you using?
There are diaphragm clutches that will bolt directly to the stock flywheel that originally held the 3-finger Ford clutch. The same flywheel can have either type of clutch. The diaphragm clutch in my '66 is a Sachs bolted to the factory flywheel which was resurfaced only.
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Old 07-15-2009   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivy66GT View Post
There are diaphragm clutches that will bolt directly to the stock flywheel that originally held the 3-finger Ford clutch. The same flywheel can have either type of clutch. The diaphragm clutch in my '66 is a Sachs bolted to the factory flywheel which was resurfaced only.


True but not all diaphram style plates have the 3 finger bolt pattern. It is important to know which one (bolt pattern) you have PRIOR to ordering a new clutch, that way you don't get stuck with one that won't match up on the bolt pattern.

The bolt pattern for the Borg & Beck type is totally different than the diaphram style pressure plate.





Richard
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Go with PI heads and quit watching The Fast and the Furious. (thanks 2 IhaveadopeGT)

Remember, it is almost impossible for anyone, myself included, to diagnose a problem over the internet without seeing the car. My advice is simply that, advice based on years of experience. I don't want you or anyone taking my word as gospel. I am trying to give some direction as to what I think may be happening.
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Old 08-12-2009   #6 (permalink)
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What ever clutch you do get, I highly recommend 'roller-izing' the clutch pedal pivot. 'Mustang Steve' Makes a kit you can wed in. Or he also sells the pedal support with the conversion already done. Google for "Mustang Steve" and you will find his site. I welded mine, and I can post some pictures later if you like.
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Old 09-12-2009   #7 (permalink)
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YOU intend to do with the car.

For a daily driver, with a stock motor with stock exhaust manifolds, I'd recommend a complete T-5 swap including T-5 bellhousing, with a roller pilot bearing, a FMS King Cobra Clutch, a MustangSteve cable clutch mechanism, and a Mustang Steve roller bearing clutch pedal shaft modification. You'll also need a differnt flywheel that is the correct imbalance and drilled to accept a modern diaphram clutch. These are typically on Ebay or Summitt.
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Old 2 Weeks Ago   #8 (permalink)
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san mateo   California
Default T5 install update

Hello again,

I have the flywheel out now and its been resurfaced and a new stater ring added ready for the install.

My fly wheel is a Ford C30E-6380B, I believe this can hold a 10" or a 10 1/2". The flywheel starter ring was a 157 tooth model.

The clutch I removed was a lever style/three finger [ no brand name, Chinese or Indian maybe ] 10 1/2 x 1 1/16 x 10 disc. It used a 6 bolt pattern.

I 'm considering a Sachs diaphragm, part# K0030-04 kit. its supports a 10" disc.

The lever style was so hard on the pedal?

I'm also considering a Valeo Signature series diaphragm style, nearly twice as much in $$

My reasoning behind this is it appears that Valeo, Luk, Sachs and Exedy between them manufacture 90% of all the clutches out there. All the others buy from these and add exotic stuff and of course repaint them.

There's a very good web site that explains all this, so I'm not making this up.
Go to............ [url=http://clutchresource.com]

Anybody buying a clutch should go to this site 1st.

It dispels all this stuff about getting something thats overrated and huge $$

Any thoughts?

Gavinbr
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Old 1 Week Ago   #9 (permalink)
gavinbr is offline Rookie


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san mateo   California
Talking clutch alignment and set up for the novice

Hello again,

I'm ready to install my clutch kit in my 1965 mustang for mating with my T5.

From what I have seen its appears to be pretty straight forward?

The bolts actually will align the disc and the pressure plate with the centering tool with the pilot bearing [not a bushing].

The T5 bolts will do he same when I mate up the T5 to the clutch housing.

Is there something I'm missing here?

Any input would be greatly appreciated

Gavinbr [Brian]
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Old 4 Days Ago   #10 (permalink)
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Kingsburg   California
Default clutch choice

Years ago I had the same dilema with my 72 mach 351CJ. The stock B and B clutch chattered and was hard on the leg in stop and go traffic. I tried a CENTERFORCE diaphragm clutch/disc setup and have been happy eversince. No chatter, easy on the leg.
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