[tostaroller]

I know that the newer ones are efi etc but is there any difference in the strength of the casting between those years? Or any other major changes that could affect the reliability of a 351w

[tostaroller]

ohh and im looking for a cheap engine stand to wheel it around on...what should i look to pay for the stand?

[tostaroller]

ohh and i know 4 bolt mains are better but would i be able to find a 4 bolt main, and would it be worth the cash?

[krankieone]

the heads varied with diferent sized valves and combustion chamber sizes after about '76 they were the same as 302 heads if I recall corectly '69 were the pick of the bunch with 1.84"/1.54 "valves and 60cc cambers.

[Cracker289]

Depends on if you want a good stand or a cheap one. Cheap 3 leg engine stand from Harbor Freight is like $39. A good stand, 4 legs, rated for say 1000 pounds, is probably around $80 to $100.

[JUSTNLX]

Originally posted by tostaroller
I know that the newer ones are efi etc but is there any difference in the strength of the casting between those years? Or any other major changes that could affect the reliability of a 351w

The late model blocks are a thin wall casting. Not as strong as the early block. If you could find a 77-79 truck or van block, those are the strong ones. The rods are Cleveland style with spot faced bolts instead of broached. Cyl wall and main caps are a little thicker.

[tostaroller]

well the internals and the heads would be replaced...this would be a long term engine building project with the budget to match.. i just dont want to drop the money into a poorly cast block when i could have a better one for the same amount.

[Fuj]

question......how do you tell the difference from a 351 windsor, 351 cleveland, and just a regular 351.......is there a certain casting # on the motor or what? (sorry if the question seems stupid but i just don't know how to tell the difference between the 351) and which 351 is better and why is there so many different 351's?

[Kaylah]

Please be patient with my 351 "dissertation." I'm kinda "nerdy" about this, and have been developing a "personal dossier" on the 351-C. I think it is pretty much accurate, but I could be missing some things.

First "351" was the 1969 Windsor. The Windsor evolved from the earlier "small block" Ford engines (289 and earlier).

Prototype/predesessor for the 351 Cleveland was the "Boss 302", which was a Windsor block with modified heads that were adopted the following year in the 351-Cleveland. The Clevelands and the later "M" engines were based on the Ford 335 SMALL BLOCK engine design.

1970-1974 (only 4 year production lifespan) - 351-Cleveland designed and used to compete in racing and NASCAR. Major difference (performance related) is the heads: "Canted" intake and exahaust valves (I call them kitty-cornered) as opposed to the Windsor "in line" valvetrain design. The Cleveland valves and heads are also bigger and more attuned to racing.

Physical differences are pretty noteworthy. Clevelands look more like "Big Blocks" than Windsors - BUT they ARE NOT "Big Blocks". Clevelands have 8 valve cover bolts per side; Windsor has 6 per side. Cleveland intake manifold is NOT COOLED meaning the T-stat is routed directly into the block (vertically) whereas the Windsor intake is water-cooled (has T-state bolted to it). The Cleveland intake gets hotter so is more proned to develop vapor lock because of this. Cleveland fuel pump bolts vertically and Windsor bolts horizontally.

1970-71 were the best years for Cleveland performance and highest compression. 500-600 HP is not unthinkable for these. The 4bbl model could run only on leaded premium at the time. If you use the 70-71 4bbl today, you have to install "hardened valve seats" so you can use unleaded gas. The 4bbl also had "closed" chambered" heads which produces a "bigger" explosion than the 2bbl open chambered heads. In 1972, open chambered heads were used on all Clevelands (except those manufactured in Australia which were actually 2 bbls). The stock 4bbl Cleveland has larger valves and ports than the 2bbl and delivers more HP.

Because of emission and pollution mandates, the Cleveland was discontinued in 1974, and the 351-Windsor became the focus of Ford's "mid-block" engines in cars.

However, in 1971, Ford introduced a variant of the Cleveland in the 335 engine series which was just called a "400". This model was designed to compete with the GM 400, and it used the "Big Block" trans and bellhousing bolt-up design of the 429/460 to integegrate size, standardization, and efficiency (the earlier Clevelands used the standard "small-block" bolt pattern for trans and bellhousing). The pistons and stroke was taller, so the block deck actually stands about an inch higher than the Cleveland. The 400 ended up getting "smogged" and used in bigger vehicles and trucks through 1982.

Somewhere around 1975, Ford opted to "modify" the 400 again for emission and efficiency purposes. They introduced the "351-M" into 1976 production and used this engine, along with the 400 in the larger vehicles and trucks. The "M" designation has no official meaning other than to distinguish the 351-M from the 351-Cleveland (however there are many "rumors" and "controversies" about the "M" designation). The 351-M and 400 are virtually identical and cannot be distinguished by any outward visual features. The only differences are internal to valves, pistons, rods and stroke and must be measured if the block can't be identified by number. The 351-M also uses the "Big Block" trans and bellhousing.

Because of the identical features, the 400 and 351-M took on the designation of "M series" motors. Both engines lived until 1982 in production. Everything is interchangeable between the two. Also, a whole bunch of parts are interchangeable with the earlier Clevelands. Only 2bbl Cleveland heads are interchangeable with the M engines because the "M's" came from the factory with only 2bbl designs. I think you can do some mods to get Cleveland 4bbl heads to fit.

The "Cleveland" engine and its "variants":
1969 "Boss 302" (Actually a Windsor)
1970-74: 4bbl, 2bbl, "Boss 351" (I call it the "best small block alive" available only in 70-71...330HP "out of the box"), 351-CJ (Cobrajet), 351-C "H.O." (High Output), and 351-C 2bbl "Aussie".

The M engines (not considered "Clevelands," but still use the 335 design):
1971 - 1982: 400
1976 - 1982: 351-M

To make a long story short, the 351-Windsor has been around the longest, and so has the widest selection of performance parts and mods. I would call it the "meat and potatoes" Ford small block. The Cleveland also has a good selection of performance mods and parts. In my mind, I'll always see the "Cleveland" as a superior hot rod engine because, in its era, it was superior to the 351-Windsor. But now the Windsor has benefitted from continuing technology, and you can soup it up to do almost as much as a Cleveland these days.

(long breath) Thanks for listening!

[Otto]

Theres only a little difference Kaylah forgot to write
about in his outstanding Post ! Little - but very important
if you throw in new Pistons and wnat to make power.
The older W - Blocks have a smaller Deck-height.
Means if you try to throw in 76-up Pistons (less Dish cc´s)
in a pre-76 Block, Pistons come over Deck and you must use
thicker Headgasket to avoid Headcrash !

Pardon my bad English !

Greetings from Vienna / AUSTRIA - central Europe

[Kaylah]

Hello Otto...

Is the deck height similarly shorter for other pre-1976 small blocks such as 302 and 289?

He He...Kaylah's post is not "his", it is "hers"

[Otto]

Pardon me for the "his" - SORRY !
Can´t answer your question without research.
On the 351W i know it exactly because i had this problem
two years ago during rebuilt/repair of my Cougar-Engine.
By the way: just got in my new toy from Us-State
Washington. Bought a nice 68´390 GT Fastback w. C6 there.
Unfortunately i don´t know anything about the 390 Engine-
Family and what/or if there´s a difference between
390/390 GT ? Can anyone HELP with information or recommend
one or two excellent HOW-TO Repairbooks that cover all
the "Secrets and Differences " of the 390´s ?

MANY THANKS !

[Kaylah]

When you say 390 GT, in what model car is it?

The 390 engine had a very rare variation in 1960's cars. I have seen only one which was in an early 60's Mercury Maurader. This is a VERY RARE 390 engine as it comes from the factory with a 4bbl. If this is what you have, you are very lucky and have a vehicle worth a total resore.

[Otto]

Like I wrote - 1968 390 GT Fastback and of corse MUSTANG.
Just got this car in - imported from your Country, US-State
Washington. Was shipped in a Container from Oakland along
westcoast trough Panama-canal, up to Bremen (Germany),
and then with a Truck down to Vienna.
It´s a 335 Hp.GT w. 4Barrel-carb. Meanwhile I found in a Book written that the 390 GT had a different Camshaft with
more valvelift. But is this the only difference ?
Something else ?
We´ve done some 289´s 351W´s and C´s but unfortunately I
dont know anything about the 390 Family and what or if
there´s a major difference between 390/390 GT ?
Any HELP - highly appreciated.

[Kaylah]

Then you do have the rare car. I don't think there is a great deal of difference between the 390 and 390GT, aside from the stock 4bbl, and you mentioned the cam. But for 1968, a Mustang that churned out 335HP would have made it the one of the most powerful Fords in production. The 4bbl 390 engine itself was around since the early 60's, but Ford did not put the engine in many cars.

It was not until late 1968 that Carol Shelby redesigned the 390 into the 428 CobraJet. And this variation in Mustangs was also rare because the unibody and front end components, particularly the shock towers, had to be reconfigured "by hand" (the production vehicle could not accommodate the 428). This was done because the 390 could not win championships for Ford racing against the Chevy 396. The Mustang GT was phased out in favor of the Mach 1 in 1970, and from then on, the 390 was no longer available in the Mustang. There was a 427 engine for other Fords up until 1967, but that option was not available for 1968 because of the "future" CobraJet 428, so for the production run that your GT came from, it was probably the most powerful Mustang available. However, I believe the 428-CJ was the one with 335HP, and the 390GT had 320HP.

1969 was the first year for the "Boss 302" which bore the same head design as the Clevelands. The 351-Cleveland was also designed as a result of losing competitions to the small block Camaros.

So it sounds like you have one of the last generations of Mustangs that carried the 390. And to have the rarer 4bbl 390 means you have something valuable and worth doing a total restore on.