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Unread 05-01-2010   #1 (permalink)
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Default 1966 Mustang Ammeter-Worth Replacing?

The latest Mustang Monthly, May issue, has a great article about gauges and instrument clusters. For someone like myself, who has become a "gauge junkie", in quest of getting the original ones to function as well as possible, the article was really good.

My question is regarding the Ammeter. My 66 has the "shunt style", as the article says, which is the ammeter with the two leads that stick out of the back of it, connected to the red and yellow wires.

The article states, "For '66 and beyond, Ford thought it had a better idea in its shunt style ammeter, where two leads- red and yellow in color- bring current through the ammeter. The red lead goes to the battery and the yellow to the alternator. The problem with these post '65 ammeters is that they weren't durable enough for the demand. Most burned up and failed early in their service life."

I took my test meter to my ammeter, and sure enough there is no continuity, which tells me that mine is "burned up" also.

Although all my wiring in the car is new now, the conditions that caused it to "burn out" really havent been changed- since I chose to wire it with the repro factory replacement stock wiring.

I am tired of the amps gauge doing nothing and the needle only moving due to gravity when I go around a corner fast! Is a replacement worth it?

My question is: Will a new ammeter gauge, which cost about $60.00, meet the same fate?

Or, are the newer ones more durable and hence will not burn out like the original ones did?

PS- looking at some old posts about this, someone mentioned that the old ammeter could be repaired by soldering in a new wire to replace the one that burned out in it. Has anyone done this repair?
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Unread 05-01-2010   #2 (permalink)
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I use after-market guages. They are a little better but you want to get one that has almost twice the range as your maximum alternator output. My alternator puts out 63 amps so I got an ammeter with a range of +/- 100 amps. I use 10 AWG wire instead of the 12 AWG wire the factory uses. You can tell if you are using the correct size wire by checking the voltage between the end of the wires used. There should be 0.0 volts when measured from the wire from the alternator to the ammeter and the wire that connects to the solenoid coming from the ammeter. If there is more than 0.2 volts measured between those points your meter or wires will not last long.
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Unread 05-01-2010   #3 (permalink)
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JDstefan22 - I read the same article and now know that my ampmeter is not working either. It sites still right in the middle and I have been blissfully ignorant that it is not telling me a thing. To be honest, I don't pay much attention to the working voltmeter in my truck, so I will live with the "always just fine" reading on my old gauge. However, PaulS as got my interest up a bit. Paul, are those new gauges available in the old look? Can you get a voltmeter with the old original look?
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Unread 05-02-2010   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdstefan22 View Post
The latest Mustang Monthly, May issue, has a great article about gauges and instrument clusters. For someone like myself, who has become a "gauge junkie", in quest of getting the original ones to function as well as possible, the article was really good.

My question is regarding the Ammeter. My 66 has the "shunt style", as the article says, which is the ammeter with the two leads that stick out of the back of it, connected to the red and yellow wires.

The article states, "For '66 and beyond, Ford thought it had a better idea in its shunt style ammeter, where two leads- red and yellow in color- bring current through the ammeter. The red lead goes to the battery and the yellow to the alternator. The problem with these post '65 ammeters is that they weren't durable enough for the demand. Most burned up and failed early in their service life."

I took my test meter to my ammeter, and sure enough there is no continuity, which tells me that mine is "burned up" also.

Although all my wiring in the car is new now, the conditions that caused it to "burn out" really havent been changed- since I chose to wire it with the repro factory replacement stock wiring.

I am tired of the amps gauge doing nothing and the needle only moving due to gravity when I go around a corner fast! Is a replacement worth it?

My question is: Will a new ammeter gauge, which cost about $60.00, meet the same fate?

Or, are the newer ones more durable and hence will not burn out like the original ones did?

PS- looking at some old posts about this, someone mentioned that the old ammeter could be repaired by soldering in a new wire to replace the one that burned out in it. Has anyone done this repair?
You dont need to worry about it. Current doesnt flow through it as they make it seem. Its actually a volt meter.
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Unread 05-02-2010   #5 (permalink)
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Hello Jeff,

Your ammeter needle moves under centrifugal force on corners? Wow, I would more likely have thought it would not move at all - ever!!

Are the new, original style Ford gauges, ammeter or otherwise, any good? I haven't a clue. Hopefully they would be better than those POS CVR's that last about 20 minutes but that is only a hope. I have never seen one of the new gauges except in a catalog picture.

Ivan is correct about the ammeter; its actually a weird voltmeter.

The ammeter is the only one of the early gauges that had nothing to do with the CVR. In '65 it was a real ammeter with a loop of wire carrying charge current close to the back of the gauge. I have never seen a schematic of how they wired it but it worked much like the clip-on ammeter probes on some voltmeters that turn them into an ammeter. The current only has to pass through the closed loop on the back of the ammeter for the gauge to work. The charging current never goes through the gauge itself so I see no reason for the gauge to burn out. The loop-through wire might burn up though. If that were the case then putting in a new loop wire (something like a 10 ga wire?) would solve that problem. That may explain the story you were hearing about replacing a wire.

Unfortunately, for '66 the ammeter was entirely different and the wiring in the harness for it had to be completely different as well. The '66 ammeter actually only measures the voltage across a 2 foot section of 12 gauge wire!! See my description of it here: http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forum...-question.html and here: http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forum...6-mustang.html The '66 ammeter should measure about a 1/4 Ohm across its terminals. It never should have more than 2.8A going through it which also should not burn anything out. Usually there will be essentially nothing going through it which is why the needle never moves. HOWEVER, that is assuming it uses the original wiring. If someone has tried to wire it as a REAL ammeter where 50-100 Amps is directed to the gauge for measurement then that would fry a '66 ammeter pretty quickly.

I wouldn't worry about a new one burning out so much as that it would work as original. I.e., the needle would hardly ever move no matter what you do short of setting the car on fire with a battery cable short. If you leave your broken one as it is then it will almost act as original and be a lot cheaper than trying to 'fix' it.
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Unread 05-02-2010   #6 (permalink)
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I like ammeters. I wish they would still use them. It would always be fun watching the starter draw or watching the battery take a charge and the needle returning to zero. My 35 year old boat has one as well as my 48 year old Hyster forklift.
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Unread 05-02-2010   #7 (permalink)
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I finally got around to posting exactly how the 1966 ammeters are wired. That made me realize that the meter itself is not 1/4 Ohm but only about 1/6 Ohm. The rest of the resistance is in the hookup wiring.

See this link for the whole story.

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forum...ml#post2045356
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Unread 05-03-2010   #8 (permalink)
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I knew my buddy Gary (IVY66GT) would get on board on this question- always good to have an EE in on staff.

I read and tried to understand as much as I could about the lack of true response from the 66 Ammeter, since as I understand, it basically is a poor version of what really should be in the car, to save some cash on wires, etc.

Yet, the completist (or call that one who wants to throw the money at it), in me wants to give it a shot and put in a new stock ammeter.

I have decided to purchase a new Ammeter, $65 after tax. I was thinking of putting in some inline fuses in the red and yellow wires that connect to it? Is that overkill putting inline fuses in both wires, or can I get away with only using one, say from the battery lead?

I read somewhere that possibly a voltage spike from jumpstarting a dead battery can burn these things out or maybe even from a malfunctioning alternator. Figure the fuses might keep that from happening.

Like the other gauges, I am not looking at it so much from an accuracy standpoint, but more that I know it "works". The readings may be vague, sketchy and dark sometimes, but if I see needles moving close to what they should, that is good enough for me. If something really catostrophic happens, the gauges aren't going to save me anyway- not these stock ones at least. I can live with that.

And, as Gary brought up in this thread, say NO to repro IVR's- I have burnt out two of them within two weeks- the "solid state" one I built is working well now, and has an adjustment for voltage output.

At this point, I want to protect my $65 investment, would inline fuses, say 7 amp be good enough?

And, thanks to those that replied, as always, good info.
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Unread 05-03-2010   #9 (permalink)
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Everyone should pay attention to what Jeff is saying about those repro CVR/IVRs. He has more than one story about them being 20-minute wonders. Plus: NO RETURNS ON ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT.

I don't really think you need fuses for the ammeter. I also don't know why your ammeter burned out unless it had been wired wrong. By 'wrong' I mean not wired as a factory '66 ammeter would have been. By my definition of a 'real' ammeter the factory wiring was 'wrong' but that's another issue.

Take a look at my schematic again. The whole gauge is hooked across a 21" length of 12 gauge wire. Its got what most people would call a short circuit across the red and yellow wires. Its permeability protected from almost anything except lightning strikes because its shorted out. I had to scratch my head for a few hours to figure out how this thing could EVER work.

The 21" shunt wire has 80x the current through it that the meter sees. If you were to get 7A through the meter then that shunt wire will have more than 500A going through it. How can this ever happen? I doubt you are planning on arc welding with this setup? The only way I can see it hurting the ammeter is if the 12 ga wire (drawn in purple) in the harness breaks so that the alternator would be charging the battery though the ammeter. For a REAL ammeter that wouldn't be a problem for this b*****d setup it would be.

My opinion is that either the ammeter was defective or somebody did something with the wiring to fry it.
Check your wiring to make sure its like what my schematic shows.

If you still want to add a fuse the plug in the yellow wire would seem like a good place to add it. That way once you convince yourself its not going to burn up you can easily remove all traces of the fuse having been there. The smaller amperage fuse the better as long as its 3A or more. Even the 3A has plenty of reserve since I doubt you will ever get the needle to deflect even half scale in either direction which is well below 3A through the ammeter.
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Unread 05-03-2010   #10 (permalink)
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A crappy-loose connection on the purple will force extra current through the gauge or shorted alternator diodes-windings.
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Unread 05-03-2010   #11 (permalink)
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I think we all have added as much as possible on this thread- I do know previous to me owning the car, the wiring was a total disaster, so I wouldnt be surprised if something didnt fry the ammeter.

Thanks for all the ideas- I am going with the new ammeter, no fuses in line, and will see what the results are. I will post how much, or little difference I see in the performance of the gauge once I get it and install.
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Unread 05-08-2010   #12 (permalink)
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To follow up the post- I have received and installed the new Ammeter.

Attached are some pics. The new one has differences from the original part. From the picture, you can see the old one has more of a wing effect to the left side of gauge face. There also is a protective piece metal behind the gauge, angled, probably to protect the gauge innards and act as some kind of shield.

The new gauge windings and needle are hidden behind the larger gauge face and circular metal housing on the back protects the winding. The needle also appears to be actuated by a rod attached to it, rather than from the top like the original.

In terms of what is inside of the new housing, I didnt see a way to take it apart, but imagine it is something similiar to the original.

My originals problem is easy to see in the photo that shows the broken wire. I did put the two ends back together to do a continuity test, but there was no continuity. I am thinking probably the windings are somehow burnt out also- so the old gauge is toast, it wasnt working since I have had the car, two years, so no surprise there.

Upon installing the new gauge and testing it, the gauge did in fact go right over to the Charge side right after starting the car, and came back towards center of the gauge after about ten seconds.

When I put on the accessories, the heater, lights, radio, etc. the gauge did go toward the Discharge area, though never over the center line of the gauge. I would say the gauge is working normally.

Now I know really it isnt telling me all that much, it is just a idiot light with a neat sweeping dial. The only time it is going to really be useful, the problem will all ready most likely disable the car.

But, am I happy now that the gauge actually does something? Very.

Was it worth $65? To me, yes- and that is the bottom line.

Here are the pics, enjoy.

PS- and on a lighter note, don't let what happened to me happen to you if you are installing this. The p/o (always blaming that guy for this and that!) had the red wire on the "I" terminal on the starter solenoid. That is the same red wire that goes to the gauge cluster and to the back of the ammerter So, when I connected the red and yellow wires to the back of the cluster, the cars starter mysteriously began cranking the motor, this was without the keys in the ignition!

Nearly crapping my pants, I pulled the battery cable and went detective hunting. Using the wiring diagrams, I figured out what the issue was, and put the red wire on the "S" post, along with the yellow that was all ready correctly there, so my ammeter was no longer acting as a circut completer and allowing voltage to go to the mini starter.

Yes, crazy, but no damage done. The broken wire in the old ammeter was actually the thing that was keeping this from happening all the time- and yes, the detective in me was trying to figure out if this is what burned out the old ammeter, but I don't believe so, it would probably burn out the starter from cranking continuously first than the 12 v going through the gauge for an extended period of time- the gauge can handle that.
Attached Thumbnails
1966 Mustang Ammeter-Worth Replacing?-1966-ammeter-replacement-001.jpg  1966 Mustang Ammeter-Worth Replacing?-1966-ammeter-replacement-002.jpg  1966 Mustang Ammeter-Worth Replacing?-1966-ammeter-replacement-004.jpg  1966 Mustang Ammeter-Worth Replacing?-1966ammeter-001.jpg  
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Unread 05-09-2010   #13 (permalink)
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Jeff,

Thanks for your posting. Its always good to find out about the repro parts that are available.

The wire you found on the wrong solenoid post almost surely explains why your original ammeter was fried. I am not at home right now so I can't look, but from memory your ammeter was connected so that it not only was trying to power the ignition coil but it also was trying to turn the starter. That is MANY, MANY times more current than the 2.8 A it was ever supposed to see and explains why that tiny wire inside melted. More than likely the wires down inside that coil that you can't see also melted which is why when you hooked up the obviously melted wire that there was still no continuity. That is why you, or anyone else having ammeter problems should first check the wiring. Someone probably thought they could make the gauge deflect more by hooking it up wrong. They did - for about 30 seconds before it fried.

A coil of wire is usually not needed for an automotive ammeter since a REAL ammeter meant to take full charge current has a single large copper bar inside it instead of small wires formed into a coil. The sensitivity of an ammeter is measured by the number of coil wire loops times the current in them, i.e. its called Ampere-turns. A real ammeter has a big copper link (1 turn) like the original '65 ammeter for which that link was the large wire running through a loop on the back of the gauge. The current in that single turn might be 100A to produce 100 Amp-turns. The '66 'stock' ammeter had more like 100 turns and got a similar deflection with 1 Amp which is still the same 100 Amp-turns.

Also, from what you say the new ammeter appears to work but it is doing so at the cost of non-originality. It makes it a more sensitive gauge and you get to see the needle deflect more than it would have originally but it also makes the gauge more prone to damage than was the original one. You are lucky that you realized what was happening and disconnected it quickly.

You should see discharge on the gauge with the headlights on and the engine off. Could you check to see that is true. While you are at it, measure the voltage across the yellow and red wires at the soleniod that feed the ammeter. Then put your ammeter in series with the yellow wire (at the point where it will unplug) and tell us how much current you actually have that is causing the negative deflection. With those numbers I can tell how 'original' they have made the repro. I expect you will measure millivolts, and a less than an Amp.
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Unread 05-09-2010   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivy66GT View Post
Jeff,

Thanks for your posting. Its always good to find out about the repro parts that are available.

The wire you found on the wrong solenoid post almost surely explains why your original ammeter was fried. I am not at home right now so I can't look, but from memory your ammeter was connected so that it not only was trying to power the ignition coil but it also was trying to turn the starter. That is MANY, MANY times more current than the 2.8 A it was ever supposed to see and explains why that tiny wire inside melted. More than likely the wires down inside that coil that you can't see also melted which is why when you hooked up the obviously melted wire that there was still no continuity. That is why you, or anyone else having ammeter problems should first check the wiring. Someone probably thought they could make the gauge deflect more by hooking it up wrong. They did - for about 30 seconds before it fried.

A coil of wire is usually not needed for an automotive ammeter since a REAL ammeter meant to take full charge current has a single large copper bar inside it instead of small wires formed into a coil. The sensitivity of an ammeter is measured by the number of coil wire loops times the current in them, i.e. its called Ampere-turns. A real ammeter has a big copper link (1 turn) like the original '65 ammeter for which that link was the large wire running through a loop on the back of the gauge. The current in that single turn might be 100A to produce 100 Amp-turns. The '66 'stock' ammeter had more like 100 turns and got a similar deflection with 1 Amp which is still the same 100 Amp-turns.

Also, from what you say the new ammeter appears to work but it is doing so at the cost of non-originality. It makes it a more sensitive gauge and you get to see the needle deflect more than it would have originally but it also makes the gauge more prone to damage than was the original one. You are lucky that you realized what was happening and disconnected it quickly.

You should see discharge on the gauge with the headlights on and the engine off. Could you check to see that is true. While you are at it, measure the voltage across the yellow and red wires at the soleniod that feed the ammeter. Then put your ammeter in series with the yellow wire (at the point where it will unplug) and tell us how much current you actually have that is causing the negative deflection. With those numbers I can tell how 'original' they have made the repro. I expect you will measure millivolts, and a less than an Amp.
I just tested my amp meter and it takes only 1amp in either direction to max it out.
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Unread 05-12-2010   #15 (permalink)
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How much voltage is there across the alternator end of the red and yellow wires with 1 Amp through the new ammeter?
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