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Classic Mustangs Tech Forum

Technical discussions specific to 1964-1967, 1968-1970, and 1971-1973 Classic Mustang. Discuss all tech related to in-line six cylinder and V8 powered Vintage Mustangs here.

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Unread 02-25-2011   #1 (permalink)
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Default 1966 Mustang 289 Alternator has 2 pulleys - why?

My coupe has 2 pulleys on the alternator. Iv looked and cant find any other 66's set up that way. There are a total of 3 pulleys on front of water pump. The 2 closest to water pump are same size and the one closest to radiator is smaller. (small one for California Emissions - i think) Its set up with 2 belts that are the exact same. Both belts run lower pulley, upper pulley and alternator. It has never had power steering on it,far as i know) Back in late 80's and early 90's when i would buy belts, The guy at the counter told me that the listing showed a pair of belts that were sold as a pair to fit my car. He said that when the belts were being made, they would line up the belt material side by side & cut them exactly the same length so it would be identical length. Now days, there are no pairs. Just buy 2 single belts Why would it need 2 belts to do the same job? Sorry so long. Thanx.

PS I havn't looked at alternator pulley photo's here yet!
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Unread 02-25-2011   #2 (permalink)
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Hello. The 66 model Mustangs that came with the California emissions only had one belt on the alternator. It sounds like, at some point, someone has replaced the pulley on your alternator with the one from a later model, like a 69, big block car, which had an alternator with two belts exactly like what you describe. They had two belts, the same length, that were on the crank pulley, water pump pulley and alternator.
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Unread 02-25-2011   #3 (permalink)
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OK Thanx. (I guess) I didn't really want to hear that, ya know. Second thing i have found on my car that's not correct. Now i wonder if its just the pulley or the entire Alternator that's incorrect.

Why is there 2 pulleys (same size) on the water pump then. any idea?
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Last edited by 6T6Coupe; 02-25-2011 at 10:02 AM. Reason: another thought
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Unread 02-25-2011   #4 (permalink)
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I believe it was part of the "extra cooling" option - a bit of insurance in case one belt breaks. I know from experience that it really sucks to lose the water pump because the alternator belt breaks. I put a dual-sheave pulley on my '65's water pump and run the power steering belt through it also, so that it won't happen again. Having a 302 in there already, originality is sort of a moot point, anyway, but I have seen other '66's configured this way. Losing your alternator or power steering really bites, but losing the water pump is an emergency.
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Unread 02-25-2011   #5 (permalink)
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Dual fans belts were sometimes a factory thing in '66. I don't know what they did with CA emission cars, or if yours is one, but my NM delivered '66 coupe with A/C and no power steering came with the thermostatic fan clutch and dual fan belts. The sales invoice does not mention 'extra cooling' as a separate option but that may have been part of the A/C package. Why they thought two belts was better than one is something I don't know but it has always had them and still does. The biggest load for the belts was the A/C compressor and it has a single belt.
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Unread 02-25-2011   #6 (permalink)
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My '66 does not have A/C but is a Calif Emissions car. The front pulley is smaller then the other 2 rear pulleys. The small one is for the Emissions. Well, good news then, maybe it is original thing. I will continue to look for others cars with 2 belts like mine and talk to them about it. Thanx
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Unread 02-26-2011   #7 (permalink)
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Ken,

Some relevant bits of info. Just last week in a forum for another marque there was a discussion of dual belts on 80s cars. One of the replies was from a guy who works in the Detroit auto industry which indicates that dual belt pairs are still available although possibly not needed.

Matched pairs are standard practice in the industry. My local Repco (generic parts store) sells them off the shelf in matched pairs. Otherwise, two belts from the same batch with a similar mm count written on the side are so close with modern quality control that it doesn’t matter. Batch numbers are printed on the package and mm counts are stamped on the belt.

As far as what got used where, I consulted the Bible of SBF details: the Bob Mannel book which I always highly recommend. Mustang & Ford Small Block V8, 1962-1969

In the appendix on pulleys he lists 19 combinations of crankshaft pulleys that were used from 65 to 69 on SBF V8s. The combo I have has two inner grooves of 6.6" diameter x 3/8" with a 6.1" x 1/2" 3rd groove in front. This combo was used for 65-67 and was marked C5OE-A. On my car the inner two belts are alternator/water pump and the front one runs the A/C. His note for that combination says:

Used with A/C on '65 Fairlanes, Falcons, Comets and 65/66 Mustangs. Also used in 65/66 with dual belt, heavy duty alternators with P/S when P/S pump fitted with deep-dished pulley marked AE or AJ.

I think what you have is shown on pg 6-33 which shows dual fan belts on the '66 water pump pulley with a much smaller 3rd pulley in front which runs the CA air pump. That figure caption says:

The T/E pump was driven off of a 3-groove water pump pulley. The 3-groove water pump pulley actually consisted of a C6AE-8509-A 2-groove pulley with another pulley tack welded in the place of a spacer cap. To prevent incorrect ID of the 3-groove pulley, Ford stamped the pulley C6OE-8509-A in yellow ink...To drive the water pump pulley, Ford used a matched set of belts driven off the crankshaft pulley. Both grooves were 3/8". This pulley was not to be confused with the standard 1966 P/S crankshaft pulley used without T/E, which used one 3/8" and on 1/2" groove.

Bob has pictures of the pulley details as well as all the ink stamps they had on them when new. In your case the dual fan belts were probably used t power not only the water pump but also the air pump which may have used as much HP as the water pump. For my A/C dual belts I don't see a particular reason for them having been used.

The crankshaft pulley used with that T/E setup was a 2-groove, 6.6" one that is the same as the 2 inner grooves on my 3-groove setup. It was a C6OE-6312-A used for 66/67 and its note says:

With dual belt alternator but without PS or A/C.

For those interested in such details the book is a bargain.

I think this all says that your setup is how it came from the factory although you may now be missing some parts of it.
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Unread 02-26-2011   #8 (permalink)
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Ran out of time to edit the above.

Another appendix page lists the water pump pulleys. There were only 11 of those for 65/69. Yours would surely be a triple groove pulley with 5.8 and 4.4" diameters used in 66/67: C6AZ-8509-E. It has the dual groove 5.8" pulley from my A/C car with a smaller 4.4" tacked welded in front for T/E.

Used on California smog control engines without A/C...

Its a long winded note but says that the number stamped on the inner 2-groove pulley was incorrect once they tacked welded on the outer groove. That was the reason for the ink stamped numbers which tended to wear off quickly leaving the pulley stamped with the number for a 2-groove pulley which was obviously incorrect (to a Ford engineer ).
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Unread 02-26-2011   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joes72/65 View Post
I believe it was part of the "extra cooling" option - a bit of insurance in case one belt breaks. I know from experience that it really sucks to lose the water pump because the alternator belt breaks. I put a dual-sheave pulley on my '65's water pump and run the power steering belt through it also, so that it won't happen again. Having a 302 in there already, originality is sort of a moot point, anyway, but I have seen other '66's configured this way. Losing your alternator or power steering really bites, but losing the water pump is an emergency.
The extra cooling package was a 5-blade fan and shroud. Still one belt.

The 3-sheave water pump pulley was for cars with a smog pump. The shaves were, from the pump forward, alternator, PS (if equipped), smog pump. If you had PS and AC, you had a 2-sheave pump pulley. If you had PS and no AC, a 1-sheave pump pulley. No 66 Mustang had a 2-sheave alternator pulley.
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Unread 02-26-2011   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Suesz View Post
No 66 Mustang had a 2-sheave alternator pulley.
Not true. I have one. Ken has one. They came on A/C cars as well as others as explained above and also in the Mannel book.

The dual alternator pulley for '66 Mustangs was C5AZ-10344-J used from 65 thru 69. Two 2.6" by 3/8" grooves, marked as C5AF-10A352-J. (There were two different, but interchangeable designs marked as C5AF-10A352-J1 and C5AF-10A352-J2.) Used for 1) A/C without P/S, 2) T/E without P/S, 3) 55 Amp alternators except when A/C combined with either P/S or T/E.

http://www.virginiaclassicmustang.co...ISH-P1432.aspx

I am not sure they were gold colored, mine of the same number does does not appear to have ever been even though the nearby, original alternator spacer is still gold.

Mannel pg 5-44 agrees with Joe. In describing the options for '65:
With extra cooling or A/C without P/S, dual groove (alternator) pulleys were used.
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Unread 02-26-2011   #11 (permalink)
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More info. My next question was. Why do i have a 5 blade fan when all i see in pics is 4 blade. One catalog lists a 4 blade to go with hi-po's and a 6 blade (flat blades) for cars with "Extra Cooling". Then another catalog shows a 5 blade for 66-67 17" 5 blade 5/8" center hole for 289 with PS and TE. I don't have P/S tho? I have no shroud tho. The radiator that was in car when i bought it was a 2 row.

So from these 2 catalogs, there is no listing for my car because i have TE (CE's) Looks like i might of had the extra cooling set up? I, like a dummy, had a new radiator installed when i bought the car but back then wasn't into the originality at all. Gave away my possible original radiator and Fuel pump and all 4 shocks!
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Last edited by 6T6Coupe; 02-26-2011 at 10:27 PM. Reason: forgot soemthing
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Unread 02-27-2011   #12 (permalink)
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Hi again. After thinking about this for a while, I came to the conclussion that just because I've never seen a 66 Mustang that came with California emissions which had two alternator belts, that doesn't mean that it never happened. I figured that, if such a thing did happen, I must have at least one of those pulleys sitting around somewhere. I started poking around and, sure enough, found one in a box buried in a closet. A two-groove alternator pulley with the number C5AF-10A352-J2 stamped on the front of it. So, I guess they did. Sorry about that. As a side note, Ivy66GT, it looks brand new if you have need of a really nice one for your car.
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Unread 02-27-2011   #13 (permalink)
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Veronica,

I have never seen a CA car with an emission system that was complete. That stuff got tossed early and often back in the day. The further from CA you were the further it got tossed.

Thanks for the offer but my pulley looks pretty good to me as it is. And if I keep mine I don't have to do any work to take it off. Same exact number as yours, BTW, but mine is now a silvery color. The VCM repro ones are called gold and don't show that nice number on them either. What color is your unused one?

Except for the cover, the Mannel book is printed in in B/W so its hard to know what color these things were originally.
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Unread 02-27-2011   #14 (permalink)
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Ken last asked about his fan.

You REALLY need this book. Appendix F is 'Fans, Spacers, and Viscous Clutches' - 12 full pages of fan details.

The Mustang Fans table lists 23 different fan possibilities in the years 65-69: Standard fans, HiPo fan, Extra Cooling Fans, A/C fans. You should have the idea by now that this guy is a detail fanatic. There were 4, 5, 6 and 7 bladed fans. Let us see if I can figure out what yours was/is. I find nothing to suggest that P/S had anything to do with what fan you got.

BTW, yes, HiPo was a 4 blade, fixed fan.

However, sorry about that Extra Cooling 6-blade fan. All Extra Cooling fans were either 4 or 5 bladed. I think I have one of those 6 blade fans on my shelf that I put on my '68 (in '70) in a personal search for 'extra cooling' after I had added A/C to the car. I sold the car and kept the fan. Wonder what the new owner used for a fan???

If you happened to have Extra Cooling AND T/E for 66/67 you would have fan C5AZ-8600-A with FIVE, fixed blades. The table on the next page says that fan had 17" aluminum blades with a 5/8" hole in the center. The ID stamped on the fan was C5AE-B. You also got the same fan in a standard '66 T/E car without Extra Cooling. Sound familiar to you?? BTW, once you determine fan number there are 11 different design styles to visually ID the fans. If you want that detail I am going to make you buy the book. No, I don't get any commission. No one does, Bob sells these out of his kitchen I think.

Sorry, radiators were not bolted to the engine, and this is an engine book, so Mannel does not give us any data on what an Extra Cooling, or any other type of original radiator might have been. I have revived old radiators to use since the new ones are not very original in their detail. Both of mine are 2-row but then neither of my cars had Extra Cooling.
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Unread 02-27-2011   #15 (permalink)
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Hi again. The pulley is gold-colored. It's that funny looking gold plating stuff that, when you look at it closely, there are actually all sorts of colors there, red and green and stuff. It's also much heavier than you would assume before actually picking it up.
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