Go Back   Ford Mustang Forums > Mustang > Classic Mustang > Classic Tech

Welcome to our Mustang forums where Mustangers come together to hang out, discuss and enjoy their favorite Mustang hobby with fellow Mustang enthusiasts. We invite everyone to read, post, and enjoy our Mustang forum as well as the many other sections of our site.

You are currently viewing our forums as a guest. By joining our community you gain access to post topics, communicate with members, upload your photos and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and free so why wait, join our Mustang community today! If you have any problems with registration or your account login, please contact support.

Classic Mustangs Tech Forum

Technical discussions specific to 1964-1967, 1968-1970, and 1971-1973 Classic Mustang. Discuss all tech related to in-line six cylinder and V8 powered Vintage Mustangs here.

Classic Forums | Classic Talk | Classic Tech | Classic Pictures | Introductions | Mustang Tech | Mustang Lounge 


Reply   Post New Thread
Unread 05-30-2011   #1 (permalink)
cuddyk is offline PONY Member

Classic Member


Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 558 Threads: 85
 cuddyk's Country Flag  View cuddyk's 18 photos
chappaqua   New York
cuddyk is on a distinguished road
Default Ethanol gas, classic cars and real-life experiences

Hi Everyone,

Thought I'd start a thread to see what the real world effects of 10% ethanol gas are to the classic mustang community.

I'll start...

My car is much more susceptible to vapor lock (due to the ethanol lowering the boiling temp of gas) and rough idle after warm-up.

Your turn...
cuddyk is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Unread 05-30-2011   #2 (permalink)
MizzouMike76 is offline Made Member

Classic Member
5.0L Member


Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 744 Threads: 44
 MizzouMike76's Country Flag
Prishtinė, Kosova
MizzouMike76 is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Yahoo to MizzouMike76
Default

Same here. Every time I fill up, I have to crank and crank before the car starts again. Embarrassing to say the least.
__________________
1966 289-2V C-4 Convertible. 2nd owner, resurrected rustbucket. Factory console and power top, conversion to P/B with dual res MC.

1990 GT 25th Anniversary 5.0 AOD Convertible. SOLD
MizzouMike76 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Unread 05-30-2011   #3 (permalink)
falowno1 is offline Rookie

Classic Member


Joined: May 2011
Posts: 3 Threads: 1
 falowno1's Country Flag
Daytona Beach   Florida
falowno1 is on a distinguished road
Default New Member

I am a new member to this forum site, I am currently rebuilding a 66 - I6 coupe with 50,000 original miles.

Before I started this rebuild I found that a little Marvel Mystery oil and some Lucas octane booster do wonders for the junk that they like to refer to as gasoline these days. This is the same mixture I use in my 71" Harley and it works great.

Your only other alternative would be find someone in town that sells "Non Ethenol gasoline" or visit your local race trace and get the good stuff. 110 or 115 octane.
falowno1 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Unread 05-30-2011   #4 (permalink)
cindys_sn95 is offline Banned


Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,991 Threads: 25
 cindys_sn95's Country Flag  View cindys_sn95's 7 photos
Gulfport   Mississippi
cindys_sn95 is on a distinguished road
Default

have not had any problems.
cindys_sn95 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Unread 05-30-2011   #5 (permalink)
MustangBradley is offline PONY Member

Classic Member
5.0L Member
S197 Member


Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 971 Threads: 1
 MustangBradley's Country Flag  View MustangBradley's HomePage
Central   Florida
MustangBradley is on a distinguished road
Default

My Dad has had many problems since the ethanol was introduced. He has quite a collection of cars and most have had the fuel system modified after failures due to the ethanol. Here is a partial list from memory:

1988 Corvette -- Injectors started leaking, replaced with ethanol compatible

1952 Ford Sedan Delivery -- Fuel pump & carb failure

1962 Triumph Italia, 1967 Triumph TR4A -- fuel pump, rubber line

When I did my EFI swap, I used braided line for the fuel system which I bought from Summit Racing. That line lasted a month before I got leaks at the fittings. I removed one of the fittings to determine if I had just messed it up, and was surprised to see the inner rubber hose was delaminating and was partially collapsed. When I touched the rubber, it crumbled in my hands. To Summit's credit, they took the line back and gave me a refund which I applied to some Aeroquip line which has had no problems.

Last edited by MustangBradley; 05-30-2011 at 09:29 PM. Reason: spelling
MustangBradley is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Unread 05-30-2011   #6 (permalink)
Pockets is offline Made Member

Classic Member


Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,164 Threads: 17
 Pockets's Country Flag
Baltimore   Maryland
Pockets is on a distinguished road
Default

A lot of problems are simply people letting their imagination get the best of them...
I've seen everything from a 1965 cub cadet lawn tractor to a friends 1950 porsche roadster run on regular gas from the pump. Never seen any real issues other than obvious things like rubber components being unhappy with the other new fuel additives, not the ethanol, dont let people convince you that ethanol is corrosive. its not. we drink the stuff at much higher concentrations than 10% its called corn whiskey

hard starting? You realize they use alcohol as starting fluid, how would that make an engine start easier when sprayed from an aerosol can but cause hard starting when its pumped in through the carb? You should try making sure your ignition isnt malfunctioning
Pockets is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2011   #7 (permalink)
Jonk67 is offline GT Member

Classic Member
S197 Member


Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,990 Threads: 19
 Jonk67's Country Flag  View Jonk67's 1 photo
Smyrna   Tennessee
Jonk67 is on a distinguished road
Default

If you are interested in finding 100% gas (ethanol free) here is a website I've found and have started adding to for my local area:
Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

It has listings by state, some states are not allowed to sell ethanol free gas, luckily mine still sells it. It's sad to see that in some areas the govt. has decided that you will not be given a choice of the type you choose to use in your vehicle. I've switched over to eth. free in my lawn mower and it runs much better now and has more power.

Marinas are also locations that still carry eth. free as apparently it causes major issues with them and their fiberglass tanks.

When my '67 gets back on the road this year I will only use eth. free in it. You can believe what you like but it is alcohol and alcohol does dry out rubber that is not designed for it. I also do not trust that it will not cause issues with my carb. gaskets which are not designed for it. On top of that you get worse gas mileage with ethanol, thanks I'll pass.
Jon
__________________
'67 Coupe 289 stroked to 333, AOD, 9" w/3.50:1, PDB, Candyapple red w/red deluxe int., PS, ext. decor group, light group, foxbody seats.
'09 Black Warriors In Pink with glass roof - the wifes Mustang.
"If it ain't broke, I haven't fixed it yet" -Jon
Jonk67 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2011   #8 (permalink)
PaulS is offline Made Member


Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,815 Threads: 3
 PaulS's Country Flag
Seattle   Washington
PaulS is on a distinguished road
Default

Ethanol has a higher boiling point than gasoline - not lower. Any hose for fuel sold for unleaded gas is ethanol tollerant - same with filters, carbs and other fuel related parts. When you grind valves you need hardened seats installed but until you need to gring them the ones you have will be just fine.
Of the three cars I have (all 72-3) I have had no problem that can be blamed on the E-10 gasoline that is sold year round here in Washington. In Washington all gas is required to be 10% ethanol all year around. I have not had any problems other than the price of fuel.
__________________
1966 Coupe
351W
Top Loader
rebuilt, rewired, modified for slalom and hill climb
No racing - just a fun car built by and for me.
Project in process
PaulS is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2011   #9 (permalink)
cuddyk is offline PONY Member

Classic Member


Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 558 Threads: 85
 cuddyk's Country Flag  View cuddyk's 18 photos
chappaqua   New York
cuddyk is on a distinguished road
Default

You're right, Pockets... some issues might just be our imagination. And I'm sure E10 takes more than it's share of blame for problems. But fuel is what we feed our cars..and I'm willing to bet that changing their "diet" will have an effect on their health. I know it has on my '65 289.

I'm not sure if it's corrosive or not. But drinkability isn't the best indicator. Have you ever spilled coke on a painted surface and left it awhile?

I think the key thing with E10 isn't whether or not our cars will run on it. Clearly they do. It's what are the long-term effects of using it? The jury is still out on that. Hopefully we'll all share our experiences on this thread and a clearer picture will emerge.

BTW, you're also right that alcohol is used as a starting fluid. But when added to gas it lowers the temperature at which the mixture turns to vapor. Since fuel pumps can't pump vapor, hard starting can occur in hot weather or when the engine is very warm and fuel has boiled out of the bowl(s). It's that vapor lock that I think MizzouMike is referring to.

Has anyone noticed a change in the way their car idles or runs recently? Ethanol levels are increased in the summer months...
cuddyk is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2011   #10 (permalink)
PaulS is offline Made Member


Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,815 Threads: 3
 PaulS's Country Flag
Seattle   Washington
PaulS is on a distinguished road
Default

In most states the alcohol content is increased in the WINTER months - because it leans the mixture for better emissions. In Washington we use the higher alcohol content all year long. I have had no problems with my three cars.
Cars from the 50's and 60s WITH ORIGINAL HOSES AND PUMPS may require new replacements to get the alcohol resistant parts but even in my 66 Mustang I had no problems for the years I ran the E-10. Ethanol is NOT corrosive - especially when used in gasoline. Methanol is very corrosive and that is where people get the idea that ethanol is bad. Fairy do do! When cars were a new thing and gasoline was not yet spread all over the USA most folks ran straight ethanol right from the farm's still. The model T had a carb that could run ethanol right from the factory. The only thing about ethanol is that it is hard to start (unless mixed with gas) if the temp is below 70F because it won't vaporize until the engine warms up.
There is a lot of bad information here....
__________________
1966 Coupe
351W
Top Loader
rebuilt, rewired, modified for slalom and hill climb
No racing - just a fun car built by and for me.
Project in process
PaulS is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2011   #11 (permalink)
andrewmp6 is offline Top Dog


Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,991 Threads: 5
 andrewmp6's Country Flag
Louisville   Kentucky
andrewmp6 is on a distinguished road
Default

If you're car is hard to start then you need to adjust the carb.It has nothing to do with the fuel its the carbs out of adjustment.
andrewmp6 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2011   #12 (permalink)
MizzouMike76 is offline Made Member

Classic Member
5.0L Member


Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 744 Threads: 44
 MizzouMike76's Country Flag
Prishtinė, Kosova
MizzouMike76 is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Yahoo to MizzouMike76
Default

Pockets I believe you're thinking of ether; same stuff used to get high and put people under for surgery in the old days....(but they mix in an irritant so no one snorts starting fluid)

I'd still like an end to the hard heat-soak starts. It really sucks.

Also, adding ethanol to gasoline is a sh!t idea. It has a lower energy density, and as such, your car isn't going to go as far as it would on 100% petroleum. I could go on and on about ethanol and politics and emissions and bad ideas, but hey, this is a Mustang forum and there's no reason to make enemies
__________________
1966 289-2V C-4 Convertible. 2nd owner, resurrected rustbucket. Factory console and power top, conversion to P/B with dual res MC.

1990 GT 25th Anniversary 5.0 AOD Convertible. SOLD
MizzouMike76 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2011   #13 (permalink)
cuddyk is offline PONY Member

Classic Member


Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 558 Threads: 85
 cuddyk's Country Flag  View cuddyk's 18 photos
chappaqua   New York
cuddyk is on a distinguished road
Default

Thanks for chiming in, Paul.

I'm definitely no chemist I shouldn't have written "boiling point". Thanks for the catch.

From what I've read, it's all about vapor pressure. With mechanical pumps and open-loop systems like we have in our cars, vapor lock with E10 can occur more easily. The problem seems much less likely on newer cars with electric pumps and closed-loop fuel systems.

Check out this paper. Kinda dry, but pretty detailed and informative. Not sure who funded it or what their politics are....

http://www.allsafe-fuel.org/TechPaper.pdf

Anyway, in the interest of full disclosure, I'm not for or against Ethanol. I just want to start a dialogue about it so we can see if it's affecting our community. And adapt our cars if necessary.
cuddyk is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2011   #14 (permalink)
MizzouMike76 is offline Made Member

Classic Member
5.0L Member


Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 744 Threads: 44
 MizzouMike76's Country Flag
Prishtinė, Kosova
MizzouMike76 is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Yahoo to MizzouMike76
Default

Cuddyk,

it doesn't affect me nearly as much as paying near $4/gallon!

Come to think of it, since I've rebuilt the carb and done my last tune-up, I really haven't had the car in a situation to vapor lock; I should probably try filling up after driving on the highway and see what happens. It will be interesting to see how much my tuning has improved the situation.
__________________
1966 289-2V C-4 Convertible. 2nd owner, resurrected rustbucket. Factory console and power top, conversion to P/B with dual res MC.

1990 GT 25th Anniversary 5.0 AOD Convertible. SOLD
MizzouMike76 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Unread 05-31-2011   #15 (permalink)
cuddyk is offline PONY Member

Classic Member


Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 558 Threads: 85
 cuddyk's Country Flag  View cuddyk's 18 photos
chappaqua   New York
cuddyk is on a distinguished road
Default

Glad your car is running better, Mike. For sure, tuning affects our cars more than a little grain in the tank!

Paul...are you sure that Ethanol levels are increased in the winter months? It wouldn't be the first time I'm wrong, but I know that cars that run E85 have to drop down to E70 in the winter (for the same reason those Model T's were hard to start).

Interesting dialogue....
cuddyk is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiTweet this Post!
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply   Post New Thread



Thread Tools



Mustang Photos
Mustang Links    Top Sites    RSS    Link To Us    Add to Favorites    Archive    Terms of Use    Site Rules    Privacy    Contact    Sponsors    Advertise   
AllFordMustangs is not affiliated with or endorsed by Ford Motor Company. ©Copyright 2002-2011 All Auto Enthusiasts Network

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164