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Classic Mustangs Tech Forum

Technical discussions specific to 1964-1967, 1968-1970, and 1971-1973 Classic Mustang. Discuss all tech related to in-line six cylinder and V8 powered Vintage Mustangs here.

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Unread 07-14-2011   #1 (permalink)
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Default How do the 67 Wipers/Washer Work?

Since my 67 was not on the road enough before getting stripped, I never got to know how things worked. My questions...

If you hold the washer squirter down - do the wipers keep running? Or will they stop even if the washer pedal is still down?

If they don't stop while the washer pedal is held down, how long will the wipers run once you let up on the washer.

If you hit the washer once and let up - how many cycles do the wipers make?

What controls the wiper cycles? There is a bi-metal strip in the wiper switch, maybe this does. What I can not figure out is if it is a bi-metal strip timer, how does the system always return the wipers to home? Ideally a timer would work if engineered properly, but I don't think a bi-metal strip is consistant enough to guarantee a return home every time from car to car.

I ask these questions because I am trying to add the electric washer pump to the system.

It may be as easy as splicing in the positve wire for the washer pump to Wire 58A between the washer switch and the wiper switch, still using the washer pump lever as the activator. We'll see!

Any and all info appreciated, I will post my findings and mods when it all comes together.

One more Question: I took my wiper switch apart. Apparently it had been taken apart before because the metal tabs that hold it together were sprung slightly, anyhow, I think I am missing a piece. I mentioned in another thread that my switch was sloppy and intermitent, but I think it is sloppy because it is missing a spring that lies between the internal plastic slide and the brass contact slider. I'll have a pic tomorrow, but I forgot it today. Anybody familiar with the wiper switch guts?
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Unread 07-14-2011   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
If you hold the washer squirter down - do the wipers keep running? Or will they stop even if the washer pedal is still down?
It's been many years since mine have worked, but from what I remember the wipers would stop when it had finished the cycle it was on when you let off the pedal.

Quote:
If they don't stop while the washer pedal is held down, how long will the wipers run once you let up on the washer.
Quote:
If you hit the washer once and let up - how many cycles do the wipers make?
1 (current) Cycle after you've let up.

Quote:
What controls the wiper cycles?
Research the 'Park' movement on the wiper motor - that might be the key. Here is an article that kinda shows what we're dealing with.

How To Rebuild Wiper Motors On A Classic Mustang - Mustang Monthly Magazine

I have been starting to research this myself (but don't have a lot of information as of yet), as I'm planning on doing something similar to you when I get to that point. I've only seen references to the 'Park' (the system that allows the wipers to continue through their cycle till they have reached the starting point, then 'parks' them in the normal position) type circuit, but I have not figured out exactly how it works. I am pretty sure that it works on a ground switch as opposed to a positive switch system thou.

I hope this helps you a little. When you figure it out, please let us know :-)
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Unread 07-15-2011   #3 (permalink)
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Thanks Chanos! That was a great lead.

The main thing I learned was that the Wiper motor is controlled by completing the ground in the circuit rather than giving it power (like you said). I still believe that wire 58A is the key, but I think the washer pump will have to be wired hot and the ground wire spliced into 58A. I'm not 100% on this and more time noodling the schematics and ultimately testing will tell. Attached is copy of the important section of the Article Chanos linked.

AND my Wiper Switch/Missing Spring question has been started fresh with a new thread...(sorry, I forgot that I included it here and posted new)...

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forum...ng-spring.html
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File Type: pdf 67 Wiper Park Switch.pdf (55.8 KB, 122 views)
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Unread 07-15-2011   #4 (permalink)
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I know that if you unplug the foot pump pigtail the wiper will not park, they'll just stop where they are. I almost went the 'add on an electric pump' route but once I took the foot pump out and found my rubber bellows in good shape I just treated it with rubber conditioner well, replaced the o-ring and reinstalled. Works like new again. I like the manual intermittent with my foot!

As long as the foot pump relay is good I don't see why you can't splice into the wire that activates the wiper motor to also activate the electric fluid pump?
Jon
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Unread 07-15-2011   #5 (permalink)
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Nice to have you chime in JonK, thanks for the response. I hear you, I may end up with the mechanical pump in the long run, mine is in decent condition, but since you still have the complete system...

Tell me what happens if you have the wiper swicth in the "on" position for low speed, then you pump the washer pump pedal? I would assume it would not effect the motion of the wipers. What if you did the same thing in high speed. Understanding how the system works from the operators point of view will help me figure out the circuitry so that we can modify it without sufferage.

Now the washer pump electrical doodad is, I believe, a...

Are you ready?...

double pole - single throw, flip/flop switch

This means that when the pedal is towards the driver wires 58A(white) and 63A (red) are open (or NOT conected through the switch), but wires 615 (black, mine were brown???) and 615A are closed (or connected through the switch). AND when the pedal is depressed, the opposite occurs. So, theoretically, one could unhook the washer switch connector and place a jumper between wires 615 and 615A and the rest of the system would not know that the pump doodad was missing. This is, of course, theoretical and I can only throw it out for discussion, for now.
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Unread 07-16-2011   #6 (permalink)
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how many of you guys actually use your washer? I bought a new kit with bag to put in a new washer system, but am now just thinking of leaving it out all together. I barely use the washer on my Explorer as is.
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Unread 07-16-2011   #7 (permalink)
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Noel, wish I could test it, I dont' have power to anything in the car, halfway through mounting my batt. in the trunk and running wires for alt., etc., haven't gotten to any accessory wiring yet.

The pump part is purely manual with the bellows so I don't know why it takes 4 wires to activate the one swipe of the wiper when you depress the pedal. I would guess that 2 are some type of override so it doesn't try to wipe when in the middle of a low or high speed cycle (having the wipers already on as you mentioned) Not sure why you would use the foot pump while the wipers were already on, presuming it's raining if the wipers are on so why hit the manual foot pedal? I never have so can't say what it will do. I would guess you could jumper 2 of the wires if you could work them out of the pigtail. It will need the signal from the foot pump click to know when to wipe though.

I can't make heads or tales of the schematic being electrically challenged...

I used mine a lot when they worked, guess it depends on how much you drive and how much spray/dirt/bugs you get on your windshield.
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Unread 07-28-2011   #8 (permalink)
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Here are a couple options for the Foot Operated Washer Pump Delete and Electric Washer Pump Updgrade. Keep in mind, these schematics are theoretical for now, but I consider them both viable unless my attempts prove me otherwise. I hope to have the car all wired in the next few weeks.

Option 1: Uses a 3 Pole Single Throw switch. I would prefer a Momentary Push Button, but all I have found so far is a toggle. This switch "flip flops" the wires just like the original foot pedal switch did AND supplies power to the new electric pump. This option will run the washer pump and cycle the wipers until the toggle is returned to the off position. Much like the original equipment.

Option 2: Uses a SPST Push Button to operate the Electric Pump and utilizes a simple jumper wire to fake out the system in thinking the foot pump switch is still there. This option would allow you to run the electric washer pump all by itself, meaning you would have to turn on the wipers as well to clear the washer fluid.

I am leaning towards Option 2 at this point. I keep asking myself...How often does one or two final swipes of the wipers clean all the washer fluid off? And usually it's right after you turn the wipers on that you realize that you need washer fluid anyway.
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How do the 67 Wipers/Washer Work?-washer-delete-option-1.jpg  How do the 67 Wipers/Washer Work?-washer-delete-option-2.jpg  
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Unread 07-29-2011   #9 (permalink)
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Found a Momentary Toggle Switch that should work...

Grainger # 2TNX1.

It says it will handle 6 amps @ 125v & 3 amps @ 250v, but how do you decipher the amp capacity @ 12 v DC? If I interpolate I get 8.7 amps, but I knokw just enough electrical stuff to get in trouble.

I'll still be looking for the 3PDT Momentary Push Button.

AND the Maintained 3PST Toggle Switch noted in my schematic WON'T WORK, sorry, it needs to be a 3PDT because the 615 circuit is Normally Closed while the other two are Normally Open.
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Unread 07-29-2011   #10 (permalink)
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I had to do some work on my 67 washer pump last night. since it was not working right. I took apart another pump switch that I had to see how it works. it is a pretty simple clever setup. there are basically 2 different circuits. when the pump is not being employed the black with yellow stripe wire is connected to the black(the 2 closest to the firewall) when the pump is activated it takes pressure off the piston and a spring that is supposed to be where the probe is inserted (mine was completely rusted away) slides the switch up and those 2 wires are opened and the 2 wires closest to the firewall (the blue with red and the white with red stripe on my aaw setup) are connected. the blue with red stripe is hot, the white with red becomes hot when the pedal is depressed. so basically to make the foot pump activate an electric pump all I need to do is connect the white with red stripe to the hot side of the electric pump. then everything should work right.

here are some pictures of the :guts of the switch.
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How do the 67 Wipers/Washer Work?-j001.jpg  How do the 67 Wipers/Washer Work?-j002.jpg  How do the 67 Wipers/Washer Work?-j003-1-.jpg  
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Last edited by mccance; 07-29-2011 at 06:54 PM. Reason: had it backwards.
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Unread 07-30-2011   #11 (permalink)
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Wow, pretty cool, not that all makes simple sense of how the switch works. I was going to rebuild my bellows but found it was in great shape, just needed some rubber conditioner and a new O-ring for good measure. Here's my pics, we need to have a FAQ for '67 foot washer pumps with all this info.
Jon
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How do the 67 Wipers/Washer Work?-img_2242.jpg  How do the 67 Wipers/Washer Work?-img_2231.jpg  How do the 67 Wipers/Washer Work?-img_2238.jpg  How do the 67 Wipers/Washer Work?-img_2243.jpg  
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Unread 07-30-2011   #12 (permalink)
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In many states operable washers are required to pass inspection. The 67-8 was a pretty simple system, the foot-operated pump is a Trico item that dates back to the 50's.
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Unread 08-01-2011   #13 (permalink)
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I'm not the quickest when it comes to electrical stuff, but I think the foot operated switch is switching to ground. In other words, it completes a hot circuit to ground, not supplies positive current to the circuit. I could be wrong here, but I won't know until I get to that part of my wiring harness install. There is some magic going on in the wiper motor for sure and it may make the positive signal at the washer pump switch intermittent.

McCance - I would check the positve lead that you plan on hooking to the hot side of the electric pump for constant power during the operation of the wipers. It may flicker or pulse.
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Unread 08-01-2011   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sick467 View Post
I'm not the quickest when it comes to electrical stuff, but I think the foot operated switch is switching to ground. In other words, it completes a hot circuit to ground, not supplies positive current to the circuit. I could be wrong here, but I won't know until I get to that part of my wiring harness install. There is some magic going on in the wiper motor for sure and it may make the positive signal at the washer pump switch intermittent.

McCance - I would check the positve lead that you plan on hooking to the hot side of the electric pump for constant power during the operation of the wipers. It may flicker or pulse.

Yeah, all I know is that when I put the test light on it there is power to one side not to the other, press the pedal and there is power on the other wire. it might be best to use a relay and only use the power of the wiper pump switch to operate the relay. I was thinking that I did not want to draw that much amperage through that switch anyway. I do believe based on what I understand that the switch is supposed to complete the ground but there is positive current going through it my test light confirms this so I think there would be enough amperage to operate a relay.
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Unread 08-12-2011   #15 (permalink)
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I tested option 2 for deleting the foot operated washer pump. By jumping the 615 and 615A wires at the pump switch connector the wipers operated like they should. I still have not wired up the washer, but that's should be cake.

This successful test gives me confidence that Option 1 would work, but I will leave that up to someone else. I'm happy with Option 2.
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