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Technical discussions specific to 1964-1967, 1968-1970, and 1971-1973 Classic Mustang. Discuss all tech related to in-line six cylinder and V8 powered Vintage Mustangs here.

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Unread 10-02-2011   #1 (permalink)
Dangerous Dan is offline Apprentice

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Default Budget performance engine build ideas?

Doing the body/paint work on my 66 GT, starting to think about sourcing engine parts..figuring the direction of the build. I am going to convert from my C4 to either a 4 spd toploader or T5. Weekend driver, looking to liven the engine up but not really rev it up, no racing (okay, maybe a stop light or two..) So I'm thinking decent idle, good torque, but noticeably more pull than stock. My initial ideas from limited research...and limited funds (gotta be reasonable after a total restore)
-302 crank/rods
-GT40P heads, mild port
-Edelbrock performer intake (or similar, dual plane)
-Some kind of performance, hydrolic roller performance cam (what do you recommend?)
-somewhere around 10:1 compression
-Headers
.....Just fuzzy ideas to start with...what do you think? Any proven component matches along these lines that work? Thanks in advance!
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Unread 10-02-2011   #2 (permalink)
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You don't need to upgrade rods but for safety wise like I did, throw in some ARP rod bolts. Think it's less than 30 bucks for a set. I'm sure your upgrading carb as well.
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Unread 10-02-2011   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangerous Dan View Post
Doing the body/paint work on my 66 GT, starting to think about sourcing engine parts..figuring the direction of the build. I am going to convert from my C4 to either a 4 spd toploader or T5. Weekend driver, looking to liven the engine up but not really rev it up, no racing (okay, maybe a stop light or two..) So I'm thinking decent idle, good torque, but noticeably more pull than stock. My initial ideas from limited research...and limited funds (gotta be reasonable after a total restore)
-302 crank/rods
-GT40P heads, mild port
-Edelbrock performer intake (or similar, dual plane)
-Some kind of performance, hydrolic roller performance cam (what do you recommend?)
-somewhere around 10:1 compression
-Headers
.....Just fuzzy ideas to start with...what do you think? Any proven component matches along these lines that work? Thanks in advance!
Hi,
Just so you know, there are two ways to handle converting to a "roller" which I highly advise due to maintenance. Both of the following, I have personal experience and both, of which, are good.

1. Use spyder assembly with roller lifters stabilized with, what's called, dog-bones and Comp Magnum roller rockers. cost is much less than 2nd alternative

2. Use link-bar roller lifters and same roller rockers. Much more costly!

In both cases, you will need to check your push-rod geometry.
A nice carb your setup would be a 600 Eddy as they are reliable and easy to tune. I have no problems with Hollys, as I have run them both.

If you or anyone else is interested, I have a complete assembly, as noted, in my #1 comments for sale. PM for details. I have since moved on to # 2.
Good Luck!
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333 cu.in, dual Webers, CI cam, TW heads,TRI-Ys, 3.55 rear, T5z, TCP susp., real leather seating
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Unread 10-02-2011   #4 (permalink)
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Also, keep in mind that the GT40"P" head requires unique and costly headers and you will not have many choices.
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Unread 10-02-2011   #5 (permalink)
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A 5spd impacts the everyday driveability of the car to a large extent. While having more power is nice for those stoplight showdowns, the 5spd makes the driving experience much more pleasurable.

I'd earmark enough in your budget to get a 5spd, but that is just my two cents.
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Unread 10-02-2011   #6 (permalink)
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As mentioned it is more $ to go hyd. roller, I figured about 2X+ the cost of staying hyd. flat tappet and adding a $10 bottle of ZDDP additive every oil change (once, maybe twice/yr?). Take a look at the price of hyd. roller conversion cams vs. flat tappet and the lifters required, etc.

What ever heads you use have the intake port matched to the heads, not that much and you let the better heads get the air they are looking for.
Jon
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Unread 10-02-2011   #7 (permalink)
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Just posted a long winded reply and the computer lost it!...

I think I'm settled on the T5..would really up the fun factor

My car hasn't driven since '80, has old school hot rod stuff on it, including old rusty headers...so the GT40P headers are more justified since I have to buy anyway. Guess HiPo manifolds work, but that would probably choke this engine.

Ken- thanks for the roller info. Didn't realize it was so involved. With a budget, lower RPM build, probably not justified? Maybe just roller rockers?
Will definitely do ARP fastners, thanks...sounds well worth it.
For porting the heads, do you match the intake, heads with the gasket? also understand the exhaust, upper chamber is worth touching up?
Thanks for the replies!
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Unread 10-02-2011   #8 (permalink)
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Car already has an old school Edlbrock intake, will figure out exact model when I get home, see what you all think. There's also an old Holley....will see on that too. If they are any good, and would combine well, it would save $$. Kind like the idea of old school rodding parts on it..
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Unread 10-02-2011   #9 (permalink)
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Here's a general idea, you might search for a better one:
Port Matching your Intake Manifold by Auto Media

Check to see if the holley will mount to the edelbrock intake, I think edel carbs have a different spread pattern for the 4 mounting studs if i remember correctly which is why most gaskets have 8 holes to mount.

I try to copy my replies before posting if they're long, had too many lost like that.
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Unread 10-02-2011   #10 (permalink)
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I'd go with GT40 heads instead of GT40P so you don't have to fight the spark plug angle and special headers.

Secondly, if you aren't doing any high revving I wouldn't even worry about port matching your heads. Freeing up every bit of flow is important in high revving situations, but for what you're doing there isn't going to be a lot of benefit from a little increased flow. If you're doing it yourself, fine, do it. But if you're paying someone to do it then cross it off your list.

Roller lifters and cam are a good choice because less friction is less engine wear and frees up some ponies, but it also allows you to have a more aggressive cam. But there are some modifications to do like the others above have noted. If you aren't set on keeping your existing motor, get a 302 block from '85 or newer and it will already be set up to take a roller cam and lifters. In 85 Ford went to a roller system in the 302's. The block is the same block as a 289.

Go ahead and slap some roller rockers on there too. One mistake most people make is only getting roller tipped rockers. The purpose of having rollers is to reduce friction and wear, yet most of the friction actually happens at the rocker fulcrum, so to get maximum benefit from roller rockers you should get some that have needle bearing roller fulcrum and roller tips. Scorpion aluminum roller rockers have a good name and the are more affordable than a lot of the aluminum roller rockers out there. Just don't go ProComp.

So you never told us what your budget was. I'll share my build with you just for the sake of having more ideas. I'd guess I have around $4000 in my engine right now, excluding exhaust. At least somewhere in the 3-4k range.

I got a warrantied remanufactured '85 302 long block from hiperformer (S&J engines based out of Spokane, WA.) A long block comes assembled with the heads, but no intake or engine externals.

I drop shipped them an Edelbrock Performer roller cam (uses factory lifters). I had them use GT40 heads in which I requested bronze valve guides, and they do 3 angle valve cuts by default. They mounted Scorpion aluminum roller rockers on the heads (and they explicitly stated they wouldn't mount crap rockers such as ProComp had I requested them).

Then engine shipped (painted, compression checked, and had oil ran through it) with a gasket set and oil pump. I transferred my oil pan from my 289, and installed a Weiand Stealth (high rise, dual plane) aluminum intake topped off with a 600 Holley.

I'll let it exhale through ceramic tri y headers into maybe 2.25" dual pipes or so with a low-restriction muffler.

I had done hours and hours of research to try to put the best build together for what I was wanting to do and I think it came out pretty good. Everybody will have something a little different based on what works for them. Some people prefer Comp Cams, etc. I understand completely doing a budget build and sticking with what you had.
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Unread 10-03-2011   #11 (permalink)
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Thank you Lizer, great input.
What kind of compression did you get with the GT40? I understand the chambers are pretty large, around 64cc...what kind of pistons are in that long block? Compression issues, and a better design of the combustion chamber is what had me thinking about the "p" head...still trying to narrow that one down, the header issue is a good one..either way it sounds like both gt40 heads are much better than stock. looks like you have a nice build going. I will definitely take the advice on the roller rockers, that makes tremendous sense.
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Unread 10-03-2011   #12 (permalink)
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Oh and as far as budget, haven't nailed it down really. I save and buy as I go...only thing that changes is the timeframe. Would like to be reasonable, as my HP requirements aren't huge, it won't see a track, and will be driven only on occasion. Not sure if that helps!

Thanks for the link on porting jonk67, was looking for something like that. Will check it out now....and I will port myself, have all the equipment (can't put a value on my labor anymore!)
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Unread 10-03-2011   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangerous Dan View Post
Weekend driver, looking to liven the engine up but not really rev it up, no racing (okay, maybe a stop light or two..) So I'm thinking decent idle, good torque, but noticeably more pull than stock. My initial ideas from limited research...and limited funds
I can save you some cash.

289HP air cleaner
600 cfm carb (Edelbrock or Summit)
Stock distributor re-curved to BOSS 302 spec
C9OZ-6250-C hydraulic "HiPo" cam
Screw-in rocker studs (recommended)
Exhaust port-matching of the heads 289/302 Cylinder Head Port Matching

Everything else stock. Quite a savings.

This formula resulted in a 67 289 that turned 323.5 hp @ 5300 rpm on a locally-built engine, the headwork was done by a hobbyist who'd never worked on heads before. More than 100 hp over it's original stock power, I'd say that provides "noticeably more pull than stock".
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Unread 10-03-2011   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Suesz View Post
I can save you some cash.

289HP air cleaner
600 cfm carb (Edelbrock or Summit)
Stock distributor re-curved to BOSS 302 spec
C9OZ-6250-C hydraulic "HiPo" cam
Screw-in rocker studs (recommended)
Exhaust port-matching of the heads 289/302 Cylinder Head Port Matching

Everything else stock. Quite a savings.

This formula resulted in a 67 289 that turned 323.5 hp @ 5300 rpm on a locally-built engine, the headwork was done by a hobbyist who'd never worked on heads before. More than 100 hp over it's original stock power, I'd say that provides "noticeably more pull than stock".
No offense but

323hp with those minor adjustments seems incredibly large for a 289. That has to be the cheapest 100hp upgrade I have ever seen or heard of.
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Unread 10-03-2011   #15 (permalink)
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Wow that is amazing David. My heads need rebuilding, so I was thinking the GT40 or "p" with it's superior design won't cost much more.
Sounds like the 600cfm is pretty well respected by all, proper sized.

I was a little surprised to see that kind of HP with a stock, though ported, heads and a hipo cam. Didn't Shelby replace the hipo cam, intake, carb, and headers?

Thanks for the port matching link!
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