Can I ask why? Sure it's cool, but that looks like a lot of work for something that could have been accomplished with parts you can buy right now off the shelf.
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"If a man hasn't found something worth dying for, he isn't fit to live." - Martin Luther King Jr.
Can I ask why? Sure it's cool, but that looks like a lot of work for something that could have been accomplished with parts you can buy right now off the shelf.
Off the shelf... Hummm... Well we started out wanting to do just that. Build a 65 fastback with all of todays tech (at least as much as we reasonably make work) as poss. We were going to install a Mustang II front suspension, IRS rear, blown 4.6, etc, etc, etc...
When we priced out all the individual components and all the specialty materials (wiring harnesses, etc...) we needed to acomplish our goal we suffered from sticker shock. It's funny, no particular item was all that expensive other than the car and the motor, but man it adds up in a hurry. We were pushing 50K in just materials, without any OBTW items included. One of the team members said "Maybe we should just buy a new Cobra and strip it for parts."
Well... That's what we did. We were going to strip the Cobra and modify all the components to make them work in the 65 chassis. We parked the cars next to each other and were surprised at just how similar the two cars were. After taking some measurments we realized that the 65 shell would fit over the 03 chassis (with a little modification here and there).
To make a long story short, that is what we ended up doing. We are pretty far along right now and the finished car is going to be our version of a 1965 SVT Cobra (thank God it is not another Shelby clone).
As far as a lot of work, yes it is a lot of work, but taking your approch is a lot of work also. I have a 65 fastback that I restored / modified in the manner you originally suggested and I can assure you that it took just as much effort as this project. Building the project in a typical fashion would require replacing the floor pans, modifying the front suspension, modifying the rear, getting the new trans and engine to fit properly (shifter location, clutch, accelerator, etc...), intermengalling the electrical systems, and on, and on... The real difference between the two methods is that we had to supply all the thought, planning and engineering involved instead of relying on the engineering of the individual suppliers. And, while every individual item is designed to work in its own particular fashion, none of them are engineered to work together.
Also, when we are done, we will have a rolling chassis that is much stiffer and able to deal with the high level of HP we are looking to achieve. The 40 year old chassis are very weak to start with when you consider the toll corrosion has taken over the years, it is amazing that there is any car left to work with. Even after the car is media blasted, there is still rust lurking behind every factory lap joint just waiting to ruin an otherwise beautifully crafted car.
I don't live far from you, heh. But I strongly am opposed to the project. Sorry if I offend you, but I personally think you are wasting a perfectly good 65 Fastback. They're hard to come by as it is, and you're only adding to the cause. I'm sorry, I didn't mean for that to sound offensive, I just don't want to see classic cars like these fade away as so many before them have. In 30 years, a Ford 32 3-window Coupe will be nothing but text and pictures in a book, which is something I don't want to see happen.
__________________
Gasoline is for washing parts.
Alcohol is for drinking.
Nitro is for kickin ass!
1967 Mustang Coupe
R.I.P. Darrell Russell 1968-2004 The racing world has lost a great racer.
I don't live far from you, heh. But I strongly am opposed to the project. Sorry if I offend you, but I personally think you are wasting a perfectly good 65 Fastback. They're hard to come by as it is, and you're only adding to the cause. I'm sorry, I didn't mean for that to sound offensive, I just don't want to see classic cars like these fade away as so many before them have. In 30 years, a Ford 32 3-window Coupe will be nothing but text and pictures in a book, which is something I don't want to see happen.
Hi AC,
Well, I wish you would take a stand one way or the other. :-)
Also, I take no offence to your comment. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But in my own defense I have to say that the 65 fastback I started with was not in the best of condition. From the start, we had decided not to use a "restorable to factory spec" example. We knew when we bought the 65 that it was in rough shape. But, we did not know how rough until after disassembly and media blasting. At that point we found the car to be a bit rougher than we originally suspected....
The floor pans had to be replaced (not too much in and of itself), but add to that the entire rear structure (the surround from quarter to quarter and from tail light panel to the area above the shocks) had to be replaced. The car was in an accident (long ago) on the passenger side and whoever did the repair was a bit of a hack. They brazed in a junkyard quarter (an acceptable practice), but they then beat all the joints down about 1/2" and filled the areas with Bondo. The front was repaired by hammering the passenger side apron somewhat flat and actually bolting it to the firewall. Three of the four frame rails were rotting through and the good one was showing signs of porosity. All of this rust and structural damage was hidden by Bondo and undercoating.
The car was a father and son "project" car for the past 10 years. The owners did by some new trim pieces and bolt on items, but their version of restoration was sand it, fill with Bondo and cover it with undercoat.
On top of that, they had pulled the six and dropped in a 302 V8 without making any suspension mods. All the mechanical systems were in need of repair or replacement. The engine trans and rear end were barely drivable (spun bearing, no second gear, loud shaky clunky rear).
Is this a car that you would buy and restore???
Could this car have been restored??? Yes, nothing is impossible, but it was highly improbable that anyone was going to ever tackle this project. Also, in my defense, this is the kind of car to modify. It was not an early production example. It had no rare options. It was a plain Jane, driven hard and put away wet beater.
I currently drive a 65 fastback as summer transportation. Yes I modified that car also, but I did NOTHING to the structure of that car. If someone wants to restore it back to factory, it is just a mater of unbolting and bolting on. I go to shows, cruses and visit relatives on sunny days. I understand your passion and respect your opinion, but I have to draw the line somewhere.
As for your example of the 32 coup. Those 32 3-window coups you refer to are fine cars, but in all honesty, when was the last time you saw one that was truly restored and not modified into a hot rod??? I can honestly say that I have never seen one outside of a museum. They are chopped and channeled and frenched and shaved and none have the original drive train. So, I think you chose a bad example as an argument for the restore to factory side of the argument.
I love all aspects of this hobby. Restored, modified, race, street, strip, etc... My uncle restored a 28 Hupmobile, 32 Willies, 30's Jaguar roadster, 40's Mercedes sedan, and others. All were restored to original factory specifications. He also built a T-bucket and other hot rods. Was he wrong in modifying those cars and not restoring them to their original showroom state???
Also, I hope you are not thinking that "people like you are driving up the cost of these cars, making it impossible for the common man to even think of entering the hobby". I am involved with a number of hobbies and I have never heard anyone complain about the value of their collectable going up for any reason.
Well it is time for me to get off my soap box. Let me finish by saying that I am a reasonable human being. But the world is not black and white, it is in fact many shades of grey. There are times to restore and there are times to modify.
My friends and I are building a project car called the SN65.
We have been posting info on the build to a couple of different forums on the net and were wondering if anyone on this site has heard of the project.
If so.... What have you heard?
If not... Should we post info on the build here?
SN65
Sure...Why not? Lot's of people are into retro modding now days. Believe me, there are plenty of "just out of the factory" looking classic Mustangs out there that have been restored to better than new condition. We're fortune in out hobby that classic Mustang's really took off back in the early 80's so there are many more that are being saved than some of the other cars from that era. Just look at the performance versions or the 'Cudas and Road Runners(Mopars) from 68-70 years. The prices on good ones can reach over $100,000 with the Hemi or 440/6-pack options. The reason is they not only didn't build that many but the ones built were "rode hard and put away wet" (i.e. trashed).
Lucky for us there were literally millions of Mustangs built so have fun and build it "your" way.
By the way, I'm an "old" guy over 50 and love all Mustangs, modded or not.
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Bill
1970 Mach 1 w/351C-4V, Shakerhood and 5-speed
2003 Mach 1 w/281-4 Valve, Shakerhood, and 5-speed
i agree u'r making an awesome car that much better with new tech and the cool look of the old fastbacks! i wish i had the cash and space to attempt(not sure how it would turn out lol) what u are doing. i'd go insane to have the looks and the horsepower the reliability, handling and the gas mileage of a new cobra in my mach, alot of guys don't have the original engine in their car anyways (me) so why would u use 30 year old tech to rebuild a dreamcar unless it was concours. the braking and steering alone would be amazing, all the old mustangs i've been in either the steering was sloppy and big turning radius or the brakes would become dangerous if u aren't used to the fade on the old drums. anyways neat project, more pics? hehe
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1970 mach 1 M code cleveland/auto red black interior, only a 302 auto now, 68 coupe w/351C auto. just got a 99 gt anniversary conv
No, I'm not saying black and white, but there's a difference between modifying a car and completely killing a car. I own a 67 Mustang and by no means will it be stock, but if I wanted to take it back to stock specs, it would be no problem at all. Same goes for the 32 3-window Coupe's. But what you're doing is completely tearing a car apart beyond rehabilitation.
__________________
Gasoline is for washing parts.
Alcohol is for drinking.
Nitro is for kickin ass!
1967 Mustang Coupe
R.I.P. Darrell Russell 1968-2004 The racing world has lost a great racer.
I will be posting photos in the next day or two showing the current state of affairs.
I thought in the meantime I should bring you all up to date. I think that the best way to to do so is to refer you to another forum where you can find all the in progress shots.
No, I'm not saying black and white, but there's a difference between modifying a car and completely killing a car. I own a 67 Mustang and by no means will it be stock, but if I wanted to take it back to stock specs, it would be no problem at all. Same goes for the 32 3-window Coupe's. But what you're doing is completely tearing a car apart beyond rehabilitation.
Hi AC,
It appears that you are still waffling on this subject.
I assume then that when performing the structural work to your ride that you used the original factory spec weld through primer and replaced all the damaged panels with NOS. Also, you brazed and leaded the panel joints, etc...
We just completed a restoration on a 69 GT350. The customer requested that it be restored to "stock" so we did so down to the last detail. He took concourse silver at the Ford nationals. The reason he did not take gold was because he did not apply all the inspection stickers and factory tags, etc... and he was missing some of the items for the inflatable spare tire in the trunk.
So, I do know what is required and have a great admiration for those who restore a car to "factory" specs.
BUT....
There are cars out there that are just to far gone to bring back to their original glory and buying the NOS parts would push the budget way beyond what is reasonable. That is unless you are saying that every car regardless of condition and cost should be restored back to the original factory specs save items that are only bolt on.
Take one stock near mint cobra valued at 30k + which will hold its value fairly well for the first 5 yrs and possibly appreciate in 30 yrs
Take one 65 fastback valued at 5-6k + in its current condition that is appreciating fast.
Add 2000 hours or more of labor plus an untold amount on fabricating costs and other parts.
Produce one car valued at approx 25k-30k when done and will appreciate at below market rates. If you talked old Carroll into endorsing the car you might be able to get a few more dollars out of it, maybe get it featured in a movie first or something but you will never get a large sum of money out of it if you want to sell it at some point.
If you had spent 55k on parts for the 65 it would in my opinion outperform a stock 03 cobra anyway so I find a serious flaw in the original logic for justifying the project. Weld on a Griggs setup an hold tight. MII is not a performance suspension which is why you found it so easy to make the jump to cutting up a new car for a good suspension.
I know it is never about getting your money out of your car when you deal with this as a hobby but that is just way out there. Maybe if you had bought a wrecked cobra for 15-20k I would think differently.
On the plus side, once all fab work laser cut and designed using CADis done, if it works out you can sell them so people can perform the same operation themselves hopefully using a wrecked (reare nded) cobra to start
Take one stock near mint cobra valued at 30k + which will hold its value fairly well for the first 5 yrs and possibly appreciate in 30 yrs
Take one 65 fastback valued at 5-6k + in its current condition that is appreciating fast.
Add 2000 hours or more of labor plus an untold amount on fabricating costs and other parts.
Produce one car valued at approx 25k-30k when done and will appreciate at below market rates. If you talked old Carroll into endorsing the car you might be able to get a few more dollars out of it, maybe get it featured in a movie first or something but you will never get a large sum of money out of it if you want to sell it at some point.
If you had spent 55k on parts for the 65 it would in my opinion outperform a stock 03 cobra anyway so I find a serious flaw in the original logic for justifying the project. Weld on a Griggs setup an hold tight. MII is not a performance suspension which is why you found it so easy to make the jump to cutting up a new car for a good suspension.
I know it is never about getting your money out of your car when you deal with this as a hobby but that is just way out there. Maybe if you had bought a wrecked cobra for 15-20k I would think differently.
On the plus side, once all fab work laser cut and designed using CADis done, if it works out you can sell them so people can perform the same operation themselves hopefully using a wrecked (reare nded) cobra to start
Hi DS,
Well...
Actually my original estimates for this project (parts alone) came to right around the $55,000 mark ($9,000 for the car). So we are not to far off as far as those numbers go.
As far as ending up with a car valued at 25 to 30K when complete, I think that you may be a bit low on that number. I know that I cannot argue the value of basically a one off auto, but I know of one custom mustang in particular that was built by a shop in Wisconson that sold for $100,001. Also, there are custom shops selling custom muscle cars in the $150,000 to $250,000 range (Troy, Chip, Boyd, etc...). Now I am not attempting to compete with any of these fine fellows in any way shape or form, but I wonder how much they would charge if someone approched them with this project. And, afterall the value of something is what someone is willing to pay for it. I can say the car is worth $500,000, but if the most anyone offers is $500... Well that car is worth $500. On the other hand if you say the car is only worth 30K and someone offers me $100,000 for it, then I guess it was worth $100,000.
As far as handling goes, I have a fairly nice 65 fastback built with some fairly decent parts (nothing to exotic). It handles very well and rides as nice as some modern vehicals. But in no way does it handle anywhere near as well as the stock 03 Cobra. I tell you what. When I am done with this car, I will put my money where my mouth is against ANY street driven 65 or 66 mustang that has been modified in the "typical" fashion. Lets come up with some reasoable ground rules and see what happens.
I like your comment in regard to the CAD work. Maybe I can interest you in a set of parts. OBTW, all the lazer cut parts for the entire car cost be $250. Lets see... A resonable mark up should price them out at $1,500. Lets meet for a beer and we can talk about all the possibilities.
SN65
I'm not entirely sure you even read my post seeing as I never said anything about doing a concourse restoration, just restoring to original specs.
Also, I wouldn't exactly put it up to any 65-66 Fastback with the normal modifications. Because though the ride has something to be desired, I have one sitting in my garage now that I know for a fact will outperform any SN95. It's done so on many occasions, including Cobras and many other variations of Mustangs. It's not my 65 Fastback though, lol, it's a buddy of mine's, he is painting my car in his garage so his is in mine. Oh yeah, BTW, for those of you in this topic who remember rodbender(that's whose car is in my garage), I could take some pictures of it and show it to you. I know he never got the chance to. He'd prolly kill me if I did it because it's last restoration was somewhere around 10-15 years ago not to mention it got hit in the driver side quarter panel, but the paint job is still pretty solid and it's got a nice Boss 302 sittin in the bay.
__________________
Gasoline is for washing parts.
Alcohol is for drinking.
Nitro is for kickin ass!
1967 Mustang Coupe
R.I.P. Darrell Russell 1968-2004 The racing world has lost a great racer.
SN65, seems like quite the undertaking but well worth it IMO. I've always though it would be a great idea to blend different generations of a car, always wanted to do it personally. A mechanical engineer I worked with about five or six years ago put a 65ish fastback shell onto a 90-91 fox car. I never had the chance to see it personally but I here it was very impressive. Good luck and hopefully your SC'ed DOHC 4V '65 serves you well.
I will put my money where my mouth is against ANY street driven 65 or 66 mustang that has been modified in the "typical" fashion. Lets come up with some reasoable ground rules and see what happens.
Why should it be typical fashion? Someone who bolted on a grab a trac set up would never stand a chance. Someone who welded in a MII wouldn't either. Someone who put 55k into the driveline and chassis would and those would not fall under the 'typical' banner since the typical mods to the 65-6 cars are nothing more than bandaids to make them somewhat more competative with the handling of a late 80s sport coupe
If you can build a name for yourself more power to you. You can do all my body work in the future since that is something I can't do. No patience for it.
BTW personal frame of reference is big in these types of discussions. I would never pay Boyd or Foose or anyone else $150k for a muscle car that I can build myself and have it out perform for less What you get with those guys are metal working skill but if that is not important to you, then you never have to pay for it. I'm an all go, maybe add some show later person. I bought my mustang with a clean body and decent paint. I put all my money into the driveline Only body work I did was paint a new hood for it.
The SN65 project car 
