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Technical discussions specific to 1964-1967, 1968-1970, and 1971-1973 Classic Mustang. Discuss all tech related to in-line six cylinder and V8 powered Vintage Mustangs here.

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Unread 08-15-2013   #1 (permalink)
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Default 1965 Mustang 289 engine numbers

Hello from a "new guy" with a question for those with more experience with numbers location and meaning.

First my car, I have a 1965 Mustang coupe with a build date of Dec. 14 1964. It's been totally restored to original and I have much written documentation to include order sheet and window sticker. Recently i decided it was time for a gasket update as due to my lack of driving it it began to leak from several places. As i figured several gaskets had just tried out. During the process I have been trying to find as many parts numbers as i can to verify it's originality. I also am taking this opportunity to update the cooling system as the car was starting to over heat when ever i did drive it.
So to my question, I found this number on the block C5AE-6015E and directly above that is 4L20. Can someone confirm for me that is a build date of Nov. 20 1964 for the engine? Do these numbers mean anything else of interest?

Originally the car was a 289 2 barrel carb , automatic with factory air, P/S I updated the front brakes to disc brakes and replaced the upper and lower ball joints and added larger front sway bar.

During this update i will replace the manifold with a Performer manifold, add a Carter 4barrel carb, new Comp cam as well as timing chain just to wake it up a bit. Car already has dual exhaust however it's 2" .
With regard to the cooling issue i am replacing the radiator with a two row aluminum one with much bigger runners than the original one. adding a new performer water pump and a new 100 amp alternator( The alternator light was starting to stay on so ...).
I'm sure others have been down this road before me and I am open to thoughts , criticism or help regarding my choices.

Thanks for you input.
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Unread 08-15-2013   #2 (permalink)
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I know many seem to be under the impression (marketing) that aluminum construction by itself will enhance cooling, there is a little more to it than that...and in many instances buyers are actually comparing apples to oranges when comparing a copper core spec to an aluminum spec radiator. US Radiator has a nice vid on their site that yeah, it does talk about the company a bit, but also talks about Copper vs aluminum & gives a good presentation of design limitations. US Radiator has been around for 40+ years. The guy who presently owns it started working there 30 years ago and with the exception of 1 or 2 items, everything is built at their facility. They are also great to talk with on the phone and if you tell them exactly what you have, what are your concerns or wants, they will tell you exactly what to order. I donít know of anyone (including the racing community) who has not been pleased with them!


Link: U.S. Radiator | The Difference Is In The Tooling

US Radiator Corporation
4423 District Boulevard
Vernon, California
323-826-096.
In general (w/o AC) the 2 core rad./oem fan was not prone to overheat in temps up to 100 (f), above that, ignition timing, etc does play a part in that and another potential impactor is when you hit .040 bore or more over oem, there is an effect on the ability of the system to maintain cooling- and of course if you live in a cool climate it has much less impact- but for most an upgrade to a 3 or 4 core radiator is a good precautionary item.

One of the greatest impactors that has come to be are the "high-flow" replacement water pumps that were introduced (and still here) in the late 70's......although 99% of it is a better impellor design, it did increase the flow rate of coolant in the system.....Now originally, the increased flow was 3% IIRR which still gave a good amount of time for the coolant to absorb the heat and expell it at the radiator but over the years & especially in the mid 80's the engineers upped the design again and well, that's when we all starting to see our engines running warmer (you also have to remember at the time these same style water pumps were still in use on the new vehicles- which were designed for the increased flow). On our Mustang the flow was so great that it would cause the radiator cap seal to "lift" under higher rpm causing fluid to expell, which we addressed with an overrflow/recovery tank (had to home-build that one at the time), which today is a common standard so to speak.

The increased flow/cooling issue is really nothing new though, as with the flatheads- had the same/similar problem caused in part by increased HP/TQ & speed- the solution was to install a giant washer (restrictor) at the upper radiator inlet- this slowed the flow to allow greater absorbsion/cooling.

Just an fyi- the V8's of the 70's (mid to late) because of design changes (smog related) were much more sensitive to ignition timing changes than the previous engines- in regards to more timing makes the engine run much hotter and possibly overheat- a couple of degrees advance is ok but any more and you could see temps spike up into the hot/boil-over zone.....I suspect it was from the oem lean-burn design and unless you knocked out the steel plugs that sealed off the fuel mixture adjusting screws, well, there were problems- yeah, for smog reasons, the oems would set the fuel mixture on the carbs then seal them off so they could not be re-adjusted.

With regards to the 2" diameter exhaust, that is more than enough for your engine...even with an aftermarket cam, etc. If you are considering changing it for looks or tone- ok, otherwise as far as HP/TQ....you are already there....in theory....a 2" diameter straight pipe will flow 318 CFM...with duels, this will support 250-300 hp

With regard to Comp Cams.....
Comp has by appearance - seems to be a company that has experience more cam lobe failures than most and places the blame on the low ZDDP in the oils. Is it a factor yes, but I highly suspect that they are also using Chinese cam billets & they do not include Parkerizing their cams (Parkerizing is the final step and a crucial step to help break the cam in- a heated acid bath that microscopically etches the metal surface and adds a very thin layer of graphite coating which allows the cam lube to hang onto and penetrate into the cam surface during cam break in) unless you specifically request and pay additional money for it.

Considering the cam has such critical importance to the engines performance and life, to me it makes sense to use a cam grinder who will talk with you directly- even modify the cam grind to fit your needs even better and to address the possibility of cam lobe failure with the new oils. With regards to price...the difference is nil- especially considering its cheap insurance to know exactly who is machining such a critical part for your engine. And remember, advertized lift/duration/lobe separation is just that- advertized and not the specific grind including ramp profile that is used on the cam.

That is why I highly recommend Iskenderian & Crower & Chet Herbert & Lunati & Ford Racing...all are family owned (except FR), been grinding cams for decades, and both will even re-grind your oem cam if possible (except FR)- saving you even more $.

As you are probably aware, many of the cam mfgs in the past few years either sold, closed their operations to re-open elsewhere (typically with new staff) or .......

In addition to Isky & Crower, I use to very highly recommend....
Sig Erson & Crane...

Both became part of corporate entities, eventually leading to periodic quality issues and closing their doors- Crane re-opened, but with a different staff- Harvey's son is now working for them as I hear through the grapvine. Typically the staff is very, very young and well- requires a learning curve.

If you do a search on the net, Harvey Crane has posted a little summary of the history of the people who made the cams at Crane, his opinion of what happened and the eventual outcome of several of the staff.

While there are some cam failures cause by start-up/break-in error, cam lobes that are of a street type profile should not be completely worn out in 10,000-30,000 miles- and while just about every cam mfg recommends adding ZDDP (and sells) to the oil, I still highly suspect Parkerizing is not done by some and the billets are of Chinese origin with inferior properties, specifically low carbon- which would explain the proneness to lobe failure (lack of carbon reduces the harness of the steel)

Given the criticality of the component- IMHO, I don't like speaking to a catalog parts sale person- they really don't know any more about the cam than what they are reading- companies like Summit, while their bulk purchase agreements are great for price, when it comes to making an engine breathe, there are so many variable including elevation, humidity, fuel blends/available octane, most cam mfgs will vary a "core grind pattern" to match the external impactors in addition to the internal impactors- which today IMHO makes the different between and engine that runs well, to one that just seems to run a little bit better, smoother and gets better mileage than expected.
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Unread 08-15-2013   #3 (permalink)
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Thank-you Beechkid for the input. Much of what you write i have heard before and I have tried to the best of my ability and pocket book take into consideration. My original copper core rad appears to be a three row however the runners are very small and many look clogged. The two row Northern radiator i have purchased has almost 1 inch openings for water to flow and should provide much better cooling i think. I have added a coolant recovery system as well. Prior to this project the steam and fluid that would pour out of the over flow tube was huge. Several times while stopped at a light in So Cal on a hot day it would appear i blew a hose their was so much steam coming up from the over flow tube.
I really had a hard time with the choice for a water pump as it became difficult to get one that fit due to mid year changes in the engine from Ford. I ended up just going to NPD and buying the Tuff Stuff performance water cooler hoping the extra pump will allow it to work easier and last longer while providing enough push but not so much that the water doesn't cool in the radiator.o
Thanks for the input on the cam. It seems their are as many opinions about this as their are car guys. One of the difficulties for a novice who is trying to learn is that so many folks have an opinion based on their experience and they regularly are all different.
This will not be a track car or a racer. My hope is to end up with a reliable car with just a little pep i can enjoy and drive long distances without to much worry.
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Unread 08-15-2013   #4 (permalink)
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your going to want to run zinc in your oil. I suggest the lucas zinc additive. it will save your cam.
as for cooling, I bout a 160 dollar big jegs radiator and it cools amazingly
I also think you should stick to a holley or edelbrock carb.

anywho I do a lot of work on the small block motors and I document many how to's in the process. check out my page ThunderHead289 on youtube, there is bound to be something of use to you.

I also have a video that shows torque specs bolt patterns and all that jazz for a rebuild.
hope they benefit you if you check them out.
best of luck.
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Unread 08-15-2013   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gearheadhick429 View Post
your going to want to run zinc in your oil. I suggest the lucas zinc additive. it will save your cam.
as for cooling, I bout a 160 dollar big jegs radiator and it cools amazingly
I also think you should stick to a holley or edelbrock carb.

anywho I do a lot of work on the small block motors and I document many how to's in the process. check out my page ThunderHead289 on youtube, there is bound to be something of use to you.

I also have a video that shows torque specs bolt patterns and all that jazz for a rebuild.
hope they benefit you if you check them out.
best of luck.
Thanks. Always use ZZDP plus in all my old cars with every oil change...I'll check out your youtube.
Regarding the carb. Carter was bought out by Edelbrock some time ago. I am told basically the same carb. Got a killer deal on the 600CFM Carter so I'll give it a try.
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Unread 08-16-2013   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry H View Post
Hello from a "new guy" with a question for those with more experience with numbers location and meaning.


So to my question, I found this number on the block C5AE-6015E and directly above that is 4L20. Can someone confirm for me that is a build date of Nov. 20 1964 for the engine? Do these numbers mean anything else of interest?


Thanks for you input.
I'm reading a book by Tom Monroe and actually just read the chapter on casting numbers. Your casting number on the block Is actually 3 parts. A prefix, basic part number, and suffix. The prefix C5AE refers to a 289 engine made in decade 60s (C). The 5 refers to year of decade so in your case 1965. "A" refers to full-size Ford. The last letter indicates the part was released for production by the engine division: "E" is for engine. The important note is that this prefix refers to your engine having a 6 bolt bell housing pattern.

6015 refers to basic cylinder block casting

The suffix "e" generally tells you the change level of a part. "A" means part produced as originally designed, "b" changed once, "c" changed twice, ect. So yours was changed 4 times from original production.

The 4L20 is the casting date code. I have that as December 20, 1964
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Unread 08-16-2013   #7 (permalink)
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"The 4L20 is the casting date code. I have that as December 20, 1964"

I have it as Nov. 1964. I think they skip "I" when counting from A-L
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"The suffix "e" generally tells you the change level of a part. "A" means part produced as originally designed, "b" changed once, "c" changed twice, ect. So yours was changed 4 times from original production."

E = Designates the location that the engine block was made.
Engine blocks were made in Detroit, Michigan and Windsor, Canada

I never heard of that letter designating production changes on a block....

Here is a good link to check your numbers...
http://www.ebay.com/gds/Decode-your-...3222033/g.html
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Unread 08-16-2013   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockman5 View Post
"The suffix "e" generally tells you the change level of a part. "A" means part produced as originally designed, "b" changed once, "c" changed twice, ect. So yours was changed 4 times from original production."

E = Designates the location that the engine block was made.
Engine blocks were made in Detroit, Michigan and Windsor, Canada

I never heard of that letter designating production changes on a block....

Here is a good link to check your numbers...
Decode your 65 66 67 68 69 70 Mustang Engine Block | eBay
Thank-you. This makes sense. Making the block casting in November and the car going through the second week of December 1964.
Appreciate the help.
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Unread 08-16-2013   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry H View Post
Thank-you Beechkid for the input. Much of what you write i have heard before and I have tried to the best of my ability and pocket book take into consideration. My original copper core rad appears to be a three row however the runners are very small and many look clogged. The two row Northern radiator i have purchased has almost 1 inch openings for water to flow and should provide much better cooling i think. I have added a coolant recovery system as well. Prior to this project the steam and fluid that would pour out of the over flow tube was huge. Several times while stopped at a light in So Cal on a hot day it would appear i blew a hose their was so much steam coming up from the over flow tube.
I really had a hard time with the choice for a water pump as it became difficult to get one that fit due to mid year changes in the engine from Ford. I ended up just going to NPD and buying the Tuff Stuff performance water cooler hoping the extra pump will allow it to work easier and last longer while providing enough push but not so much that the water doesn't cool in the radiator.o
Thanks for the input on the cam. It seems their are as many opinions about this as their are car guys. One of the difficulties for a novice who is trying to learn is that so many folks have an opinion based on their experience and they regularly are all different.
This will not be a track car or a racer. My hope is to end up with a reliable car with just a little pep i can enjoy and drive long distances without to much worry.
Just an FYI.......Since you are in SoCal.....Crower cam & Equip is in San Diego & Iskenderian is located in Gardena....both are great to work with!!!! (amaof.....the 3rd cam Ed Iskenderian ever ground went in my Dad's flathead- grin)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechkid View Post
Just an FYI.......Since you are in SoCal.....Crower cam & Equip is in San Diego & Iskenderian is located in Gardena....both are great to work with!!!! (amaof.....the 3rd cam Ed Iskenderian ever ground went in my Dad's flathead- grin)
And Edelbrock used to be in Torrance, I don't know if they are still there or not.
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Unread 08-16-2013   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockman5 View Post
And Edelbrock used to be in Torrance, I don't know if they are still there or not.
They are....And they have additional facilities in the Inland Empire i believe.
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Veronica describes how the system works. E could have different meanings. The various suffix letters could be entirely different parts, not just updates. That is unless you consider a 289 block as being an 'update' from a 260 or a 221 block. Some of them only differed by that last letter.

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Unread 08-17-2013   #14 (permalink)
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Thanks to all who have responded . have been checking out "Veronica's" Posts and getting a lot of great info. Pretty impressive contributor in my humble opinion.
Great to finally confirm i have a "Matching Numbers" car for what ever that's worth....
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