Hey everyone, my names Andrew. I've lurked this forum for a while now but I've finally signed up. Seems like theres a lot of good information here and a lot of helpful folks, so I'd just like to thank you in advance for whatever advice you may have for me now and in the future.
Ok, here's the setup:
-68 Coupe, originally a 302 auto, but bought the car with no drivetrain
'-75 (I believe) 351W under the hood now, motor ran strong before
I took it apart.
-top end: Stock heads, and currenly stock 2V intake and carb,
but upgrading to 4V aftermarket setup when i have the $$
Stock cam and hydraulic lifters, again to be replaced with a
more aggressive cam, solid lifters and roller rockers.
-bottom end: stock everything, but im thinking in the engine rebuild
I will get new pistons with greater valve relief for greater valve lift.
I may even choose to stroke the engine for greater
displacement and power, but im deciding if that is a
costworthy decision or not and even if I have the skill to do so.
-auto tranny, but i really need to run the #'s on it to verify
exactly what it is. (gonna get changed to a 5 speed anyways)
-rear-end: Stock 8 In. currently.... I have to search junkyards for
a 9incher with some kind of limited slip differential (none of
this pegleg stuff)
-4 wheel manual drum brakes, dual chamber master cylinder
First, how do my ideas for the engine sound? Any suggestions? I want to build a real stong engine and im pretty sure the 351w is a good enough block to get decent power out of. Im looking for a good strong top end and a good strong bottom end to complement that. Exhaust will follow that, but that will be very last.
Just as a preface here, im looking for some opinions on this following issue.
Ok now here's the situation.... I've had the car for about 4 years now and I have finally gotten into restoring it. I am fairly mechanically inclined (I'm in training to be an auto mechanic). I have completely disassembled the top end, hot tanked the heads and intake manifold. There was some carbon remaining in the combustion chambers of the heads so i went ahead and lightly hit them with a wire wheel on a drill. Mistake. In the process i accidently ground the valve seat down and it looks pretty bad. I was already planning on getting a complete valve job done to begin with, but my question is whether or not the valve seat is salvagable. I do not currently have a picture to post yet, but i can tell you right now that whatever three angle face was there... its now pretty gone. Tomorrow I will post a picture of the damage.
Any comments right off the bat? I'll be sure to update this tomorrow.
THANKS!
Hello. Welcome. If you dug into the valve seat with a wire wheel then I'm assuming that the heads don't have hardened valve seats. It would be a good idea to have those installed anyway, even without the one being slightly damaged. On the 351s, the 2bbl heads actually breath a little better than the 4bbl heads.The hot set-up there would be to keep the 2bbl heads and go with a 4bbl intake.To make one of these cars be quick you don't really need a gazillion HP.The problem with them is that they are very light in the back and they aren't very rigid, making it difficult to hook up. Traction bars, sub-frame connectors and the right wheel/tire combo will help your times more than an additional 50 HP. And, just so you know, you probably won't find a 9-inch rear end in a junk yard. Those days are long gone.Hope that helps, and again, welcome.
Thanks for the quick response Veronica. That's some good news to hear. Since I'm not a machinist I'm not fully aware of everything that happens in a valve job, I figured they would just regrind the three angle face if there was enough remaining metal. From what you tell me I gather that valve seats can be pressed on and off. Is that correct? And if I were to go with hardened valve seats, would I need differing valves to match the seats?
As for your other advice, I can't say I am familiar with sub-frame connectors, could you explain a little more to me about that? Right now i'm just assuming they would be metal renforcements for the frame just to stiffen it up, but I am not sure if that is correct. Would there be welding invovled? Im trying to do every bit of work on this car on my own, and if i've gotta weld that means im taking a welding class this semester And would sandbags or some kind of extra weight over the rear wheel wells help get more power to the ground? I've heard of that for trucks, I just didn't think that would be common for cars.
That leads me to my next big area to throw money in... with a large and heavy V8 under the hood, what would be the smart thing to do about suspention? I have not had a chance to drive the car yet, but I am sure it handles like a flying brick, not to mention i only have manual drum brakes. What should I look for to beef up my suspention and handling? I live in a mountainy area with plenty of curvy roads to speed down, I'd just like to be able to keep the car on the road through turns.
I'm sorry to hear about those 9inchers... I love digging through junkyards looking for parts but I can see how you are correct. I'm sure theres a million people like me looking the same thing. Oh well, I'll keep looking while I save more money.
Hi again. Yeah, junkyards are where I do a lot of my christmas shopping for myself. A cast iron 351 head doesn't really have valve seats per se. The factory guys simply machine the appropriate angle(s) in the cast iron that's already there. Replacing the valve seats involves boring a little pocket in the location of the valve seat and then pressing in a pre-made seat made of a more durable material, which isn't nearly as expensive as it probably sounds. Sub-frame connectors are exactly what you have imagined them to be. Mustangs don't have a chassis. They have short pieces of frame rails to stiffen up specific areas.The floor pan and roof are what supply most of the structural integrity of the vehicle as a whole.That's why rusty floors are such a big deal on a Mustang but mean pretty much nothing on something like a 66 Malibu. The installation of sub-frame connectors does call for some welding. The up-side is that they help keep you from having your car get tied in knot everytime you stomp on the accellerater. The traction bars are pieces that go from the rear axle housing to the frame of the car to help minimize wheel hop on take-off. In a stock configuration the only things holding the rear axle assembly in the car are the leaf springs, rear shocks and drive shaft, none of which are particularly rigid. If you can get the car to where the rear wheels dig in and bite rather than hop and spin, then you are well on your way to having a car that's pretty quick coming out of the hole.
Cars that can go fast need to be able to stop fast. I would definitely go with front disc brakes. There are a number of companies, like stainless steel brake corp., that make a start to finish kit for this. Good luck.
I beleive Veronica is thinking of the Cleveland series of 351s. The best stock Windsor series heads are the 1969-1974 351 Windsor heads, those are the ones you want to get on there. You can pick up a nice pair for a cheap price, maybe 150 for a nice pair needing the normal rebuild work. Now if you really want to get your engine running hot, get a set of 351 2 bbl Cleveland heads, have them machined to fit the Windsor heads (you have to fill one water passage hole and drill another one) and slap those puppies on there. They have ports much bigger than those of the Windsors, and the 4 bbl Cleveland heads have rediculously sized ports. Those dont work too well on the low end with a 351 though.
For the traction bars I was looking into a Grab-a-trak suspention and handling kit. You can find it here. Im getting into an area where I dont have too much experience here, I'm mostly a gearhead so far. Is this a worthy choice to spend my money on? I need the added performance but I am also on a tight budget. (I'll take the horsepower and performance over the $$ anyday though)
Now for the heads, im thinking I might just hang onto the stock set I have and just get a complete valve job. HMMMM..... When im strengthening the rest of the top end though, will the stock heads end up being the restrictive part in the top end? Could there be other machine work that could be done to help improve flow? The answers to these questions will help me decide if I should repair my stock stuff or just go aftermarket.
Thanks for all the great information, it's been a real big help!
Youre heads will be the restrictor. I can gauruntee it. You can port them but they still wont flow as well, and they will also have the big combustion chambers keeping compression low. If youre going to have them remachined anyway, you should really lay down the extra 150 bucks and do it with a good set of heads. DSC Motorsport
DSC has them for 175 a pair, get them and have the valves oversized to 2.02 intake and 1.6 exhaust and you will have a nice set of heads for your engine. They have small combustion chambers so you would get a nice high compression ratio with a dished or flat top piston. I dont know how much you know about compression ratios, but the higher you have the bigger and more agressive you can get with your cam design, and a higher CR adds power at every RPM. A healthly 351 should run between around 9:1 and 10:1 compression on the street IMHO. I dont want to rag on your heads, but they are basically smog equiptment CRAP. You dont want them, I dont know the exact size but im sure the combustion chambers are huge too, and the ports are probably small and anything but smooth. If youre running those heads there will be no need for an agressive cam because they will never take advantage of it. I dont want you to think im raggin gon what you have, my buddy has a '66 with a 289 2 bbl, im having the hardest time ever trying to get him to get a pair of these heads which are a bargain, and hes driving me up the wall. I would STRONGLY advise you to get an earlier set of Windsor heads. The 351 is a very good, solid, and capable and nice engine to run on the street, just like the 350 Chevy. However, far too often people use the wrong stock heads, and kill the engines capabilities.
Thats exactly the info I needed to hear. I know in the 70's they changed design of engines from complete performance to complete exhaust/emissions crap. The heads do have large combustion chambers so I'm sure the engine will be doomed to have a low CP. You've convinced me to go aftermarket, but I believe you are completely right.
Now my next question is pistons. What are some opinions on Federal-Mogul pistons? I've just started my research for parts and this company caught my attention. Would that be overkill for a strictly street car? I haven't found prices yet but im sure they're not cheap. Any good suggestions?
EDIT: I checked out that site for the heads, thats a pretty great find! thanks a lot. Looking at their selection, would the 351W C9OE, 1969 pair fit my 75 block? I'm not sure what minor changes may have been done to the 351w block between 69-75, but im pretty positive most front and top end equipment should be interchangable with earlier 289/302 motors. Is this correct? In hindsight i've realized I've shot myself in the foot getting a mid 70's block, but I think with the right information from everyone here I can work out all these little inconsistancies and problems.
Last edited by drewsgotaSTANG; 12-31-2006 at 03:38 PM.
Reason: added content
You dont necessarily have to go aftermarket, like I said the 1969-1974 351 Windsor heads from Ford are nice peices, but aftermarket obviously does have its advantaged but a pair of aftermarket heads will start at around 1100 new and complete for the average pair. \
Federal Mogul pistons are not the best in the business, but they are good quality. Most of them are basically the way the stock pistons cames. They are a little bit heavy, but I know they are pretty cheap and I have never heard anyone complain about them. Lots of Mopar guys run them. Ross Racing pistons are the best. They are strong and light, and a lighter piston does two things. First it puts less stress on the rotating assembly so it puts less stress on the internal parts and the engne will last longer and it also, because of the rotating assembly inside being lighter, allows the engine to rev up faster and rev higher. I dont know how high you want to rev your engine, but I would reccomend forged pistons, even if you dont need them. I personally like forged much better. Generally they are "neede" when you are going to rev your engine beyond 6000-6500 rpms, but I think that any You can get nice piston, piston ring, and bearing kits from Summitracing that use Federal Mogul parts. Federal Mogul are actually one of the cheaper piston companies, then I would say Speed Pro is probably next. They are good quality though.
This is from Eagle, less than 1 grand, everything inside your engine all new, the pistons are forged, and ITS A STROKER KIT. I dont kno wwhat your budget is, but that might be something for you to think about.
And before you select pistons, you need to know what heads youre going to use so that you can get the right compression ratio, too low is bad for performance, too high and you wont be able to run pump gas.
wow! that is an impressive kit you've found there, and that is right about in my budget range for the bottom end. Would any cutting need to be done to the cylinder walls since it is a stroker kit, or is it simply bolt on? Looking back at the page i noticed it said the piston and ring oversize is .030, but I can take the block to be machined to take care of that. That'd actually be a good excuse for me to get it hot tanked so I can paint the block.
And with that kit right there, would you suggest the DSC Motorsport heads to complement that? Seems like that would be a decent setup. All that would leave would be intake manifold, carb, and valve train. well, thats the major stuff at least.
I cant thank you enough for all this great info!
Last edited by drewsgotaSTANG; 12-31-2006 at 04:00 PM.
Reason: because I wanted to
Well if youre going to rebuild the engine, the correct way is to disassemble everything, haev every hot tanked, overbore the engine to the next size, have everything checked for cracks, and replace all bearings, rings, and gaskets. i beelive that comes with a full gasket kit too. As far as clearancing the block goes im not 100% sure. I would assume for now that it will need to be notched but im not 100% sure. I just noticed though that the pistons in that kit are Hypertechtic, not forged. The ones with forged pistons are about 600 bucks more! The hypereutectics are better than cast but not as strong as forged, I would limit rpms to 6000 with them. The DSC website I directed you towards sells both new aftermarket heads and original Ford heads that need to be rebuilt. The stock 351 Windsor heads would probably struggle at about 6000 rpm with a 408 cube engine, but if you ported them they would be okay to a little bit higher. You could always add aftermarkets in the future. However, if you can afford the aftermarket heads such as Edelbrocks, go for them. They are better heads than the stock units, they just cost a substantial amount more. How high do you want to rev it? With a 408 you really dont need to rev it that high unless you want even more power.
My original plan was to completly strip the block bare of everything and get it down to a machine shop and get done exactly what you've described. This is my first engine of my own that I am building, so I have been planning a 100% rebuild, from the ground up, for the full experience. I'm dedicating pretty much all my money to it. I've only torn apart and rebuilt 302's and other more modern engines in classes that im currently taking. I cant say im familiar with notching though. Could you explain that one to me? EDIT: I re-read that I i get it now. Notched=cutting cylinder, which is pretty much what I said. Im a little slow today lol
As for the pistons, Hypertechtic is fine with me. My use for the engine would be strictly street, so there is really not much need for me to push the RPMs past 6000. (If I do end up pushing it past that limit, which im sure im bound to do, what would I expect to happen? Poor performance at highest RPM or actual engine damage?) The added strength over stock cast would be enough for me, even though they are not forged. Plus, that 600 bucks would be $600 less I could spend on the rest of the rebuild of the engine. Im only a broke teenager, im sure in a few years when im in a better financial position I can go back and do it right, get forged pistons along with aftermarket heads. The orginal Ford heads from the DSC website would work great for me, plus you cant beat $170 for that! I wouldn't mind rebuilding them anyways, that was exactly what I was doing with my current pair before I started this thread. That kind of stuff I actually enjoy doing, so its no real big deal for me. Thankfully i havent invested much money in them yet.
So if I am about to build a 408 stroker engine, what kind of intake manifold and carb setup is this going to take? I can admit i know next to nothing about carbs, but I have a three inch textbook next to me that covers every inch of engines in general. I'm sure I can learn soon. What CFM would be correct for street use? Is 4V pretty much required? Are there any specific companies that build good products you could suggest? I could think Edelbrock or Holley right off the top of my head, but I really have no clue the quality of their carbs, I just know the brand names. I'd rather make the smarter choice and get better quality over brand name, if that is a factor in engine rebuilding at all.
Another big question I have is about the cam. Since this is my first rebuild, and I havent even been able to drive the car with the current engine yet, I'm not entirely sure where you would find the change in power with an aftermarket cam over stock. I understand the fundamentals about larger lift and longer duration, plus the benifit of having the intake and exhaust open together momentarily, and I understand how that improves the overall quality and efficiency of the explosion in the cylinder and how that improves the engines ability to breath overall, I just dont know where to expect an improvement in power as you are driving......
What do I need to do to get good torque and power at lower RPMs, sayyy off the line at a stoplight racing an import? And after that, what do i need to do to maintain strong power, as i burn past 'em, through the mid and higher RPM range? I know now since you explained to me the importance of the head's ability to flow at high RPM, and I am aware of valve float at higher RPMs, but what else might need to be improved to allow strong consistant power through the entire RPM range? Thats the ultimate question i'd like to get answered.
I know thats a lot of questions to ask right there, but any response would be appreciated. I just want to build a strong, high quality motor with my own hands, but I just don't have all the helpful experience yet to answer all of my own questions. Thanks for all the help so far.
Last edited by drewsgotaSTANG; 12-31-2006 at 05:44 PM.
Reason: why would someone read this?
I think the stroker is too much for the stock heads. It requires a lot of air in all of the rpm range. I would spend the money from the stroker on the heads. That is the key to power. A 351W with good heads and coordinated componets will out perform a 408W with stock heads.
The 408 will fall on its face at higher rpm as the heads choke it. You may beat the other guy off the line, but then they will over take you.
The key is to coordinate all pieces to effectively run in the same rpm range. The heads, intake, carb, cam, exhaust, rear gears, etc. must all be matched to each other.
Restomod, you are completely right. An engine is nothing but a bunch of parts that have to work in sync with eachother. A well tuned engine with each differing system working perfectly together should outperform one that has a bottem end that dominates the top end. Ultimately I want this engine I am planning on building to be perfectly tuned and adjusted like that, but money is holding me back here. I've had this 351w sitting in my run down stang in my driveway for 4 years without having the proper knowledge to do anything useful to it, but the entire time I've wanted to stroke it to squeeze as much power and displacement out of it as possible. A 408 is the engine that I really want, and I think im gonna have to deal with that choke at high RPMs until I can afford the aftermarket heads the engine deserves.
Jeez, I haven't even put much thought into the rear end yet! An 8 inch might not last too long with a 408w. I'm gonna need to be real careful until I can afford all the proper parts to support this engine.
Engine Rebuild plans / Head Issues 
Welcome. If you dug into the valve seat with a wire wheel then I'm assuming that the heads don't have hardened valve seats. It would be a good idea to have those installed anyway, even without the one being slightly damaged. On the 351s, the 2bbl heads actually breath a little better than the 4bbl heads.The hot set-up there would be to keep the 2bbl heads and go with a 4bbl intake.To make one of these cars be quick you don't really need a gazillion HP.The problem with them is that they are very light in the back and they aren't very rigid, making it difficult to hook up. Traction bars, sub-frame connectors and the right wheel/tire combo will help your times more than an additional 50 HP. And, just so you know, you probably won't find a 9-inch rear end in a junk yard. Those days are long gone.Hope that helps, and again, welcome.
A cast iron 351 head doesn't really have valve seats per se. The factory guys simply machine the appropriate angle(s) in the cast iron that's already there. Replacing the valve seats involves boring a little pocket in the location of the valve seat and then pressing in a pre-made seat made of a more durable material, which isn't nearly as expensive as it probably sounds. Sub-frame connectors are exactly what you have imagined them to be. Mustangs don't have a chassis. They have short pieces of frame rails to stiffen up specific areas.The floor pan and roof are what supply most of the structural integrity of the vehicle as a whole.That's why rusty floors are such a big deal on a Mustang but mean pretty much nothing on something like a 66 Malibu. The installation of sub-frame connectors does call for some welding. The up-side is that they help keep you from having your car get tied in knot everytime you stomp on the accellerater. The traction bars are pieces that go from the rear axle housing to the frame of the car to help minimize wheel hop on take-off. In a stock configuration the only things holding the rear axle assembly in the car are the leaf springs, rear shocks and drive shaft, none of which are particularly rigid. If you can get the car to where the rear wheels dig in and bite rather than hop and spin, then you are well on your way to having a car that's pretty quick coming out of the hole.
And after that, what do i need to do to maintain strong power, as i burn past 'em, through the mid and higher RPM range? I know now since you explained to me the importance of the head's ability to flow at high RPM, and I am aware of valve float at higher RPMs, but what else might need to be improved to allow strong consistant power through the entire RPM range? Thats the ultimate question i'd like to get answered.
