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Tightening cable battery snafu.

2K views 17 replies 7 participants last post by  rex1965 
#1 ·
I was tightening a loose battery cable while diagnosing a rather stubborn carburetor problem when the wrench that clearly was to long for the job slipped from my sausage like fingers and fell squarely on to both battery posts simultaneously before falling into the engine compartment. The battery arced but no smoke or smell. Car started and took it for a short test drive blinkers, lights radio all ok. Next morning went to pick up my youngest at school and a half-mile away from the house car sputtered and spat and died. Thinking it was the fore mentioned carb problem tried in vane to start it. The tow truck driver suggested checking for spark, there was none.

The Car
A 69 convertible v8 302 with a 2 barrel autolite 2100 with less then a year old point type distributor. I’ve owned this car for 18 years.

Multi-meter Check
Coil voltage and resistance numbers are good. Starter relay is good as are the fuses and ignition switch. Have not checked condenser, alt or starter yet. While checking for spark this evening in a dark garage I noticed sparking coming from the starter when cranking engine. Have done many spark tests before but have not noticed sparks from the starter before.

Was hoping for some general (or specific) advice from folks to get me going on some leads. (no pun intended)

I am a new member and first time poster but have been referencing the form for years. With much respect to all that post responses to this form with special admiration to those of you that post the unsolicited time consuming detailed write ups on varies subjects most notably the carb variety
 
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#2 ·
Hello CalSchumacher,
First - -Welcome to the community.

I have a few questions
1 - Was the motor running when the wrench hit the battery?
2. - Do you have voltage feeding the coil?
3. - Is the motor turning over?

Now for a few thoughts
1. - If the motor was running when the battery shorted - it could
have damaged the alternator - -but we need to get the motor running first. I am thinking the car started and drove on the battery
alone without the help of the alternator - -but this would result in NO crank
DO NOT start swapping out parts -you need to investigate

2. - If the motor was off when the short happened I think you just
drained the battery - -This would tell me the issue has nothing to do
with the short and arcing

3. - You mention sparks at the starter - -this could indicate a loose
connection at the starter. I would clean and tighten the connections
on the starter - -the large battery cable and the small wire

4. - Just for kicks, remove the distributor cap and rotate the motor by hand to make sure the points are opening and closing.
I suppose it is possible the points got arced together.

I have a feeling you will get this - -it is a matter of figuring where
the voltage is not getting too.

Check the wires at the starter and we will go from there

Let us know
Print Dad
 
#3 ·
Thanks for the help.


1. Not only was it not running but I had the negative battery post quick connect off (the screw off type)
2. Got voltage at the coil, I’ll recheck the numbers but its in the range of 12v at the positive and negative terminals and 9v at center output, tested while trying to start the car (leading to dist cap)
3. Cranking fine, starter engaged and strong crank. I kept trying to start her for an hour before the battery finally died.

I’ll give the starter the once over and will look closely at the distributor. Soon as the sun comes up I’ll do that as well as a “going through” of the general ignition system. I’ll post the info this after noon

I did look at the underside of the dist cap and dist rotor for damage i.e., soot, pitting, etc. and looked good. However, I didn’t look at the points closely.

It seems to be a knee jerk reaction to start replacing parts kind of a shotgun approach to car repair. Still find myself falling victim to that from time to time.
 
#6 ·
1. Not only was it not running but I had the negative battery post quick connect off (the screw off type).
Your unfortunate 'oops' is in all likelihood unrelated to whatever problem you now have. The only damage might have been to the battery and since the wrench bounced off the terminals that's not very likely either. That would not have been the case if the wrench had welded itself to the terminals; that could literally fry a battery.

A few sparks inside the starter at the commutator wouldn't be unusual but that part is usually hidden from view.
 
#4 ·
Can I suggest a another thought. do you have spark? how about trying this? pulling a spark plug wire and put a spark plug into it, hold it against a bolt and have someone turn the engine over. see if you are getting spark to your plug.
 
#5 ·
Th OP says in the first post that there is no spark. But like you I'd like to have that checked again. Checking that with a tow truck driver on the the side of the road in bright light, It'd be easy to miss a small spark.

Z
 
#7 ·
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you all.

I agree a daytime spark test on the roadway would not the best way. It was later in the evening at home in a darkened garage. That’s why the starter sparking was so noticeable. Now that I’ve been able to digest the info a little better I’m thinking that it was just a coincidence that the car died when it did. So here is some more info

.
Print Dad
I checked for loose connections on the starter, there were none. Things were kind of messy with a dusting of power steering fluid so I wiped them down (ford’s power ram power steering never working but always leaking!)

The points looked good with the arm opening and closing. I retested the coil with the multi meter.
1) First reading was from the positive and negative coil terminals and meter set at 200ohms, reading was 2.1ohms.
2) Second reading was from the coil positive terminal and the coil center with meter set at 20k ohms and that reading was 10.66k ohms.
3) I also tested the coil to dist wire for resistance meter set at 20k and that reading was 2600k ohms.

Can’t say with any certainty that these numbers are on target but I believe there within range.

My69mach1
Covering all bases I did the spark plug on the end of the spark plug wire and no spark.


I am dumbfounded!! Again my apologies for the delayed response.
 
#10 ·
^^^^^^ yes.

To the OP: do you have voltage to the + side of the coil with the key turned to the in position ? If you have stock wiring ( with the resistor wire intact) you should have. 6-8 volts at coil + terminal. Isolate coil from distributor for taking the reading, i.e. Remove the wire negative wire to the coil from the distributor.

If you DO have voltage to the coil, then the likely issue is a shorted condenser and or burned up points ( from having the bad condenser.)

When getting new points and condensers get the best quality you can find. NAPA would be the best bet locally. Better still are Autolite or MotorCraft NOS parts from eBay, etc. modern condenser manufacture is not as good as should be, so stay away from budget parts.

Resist the temptation to go electronic with a Pertronix module. Points are the most reliable, and won't generally give out all at once. You can limp home with a bad condenser easier than you can when a Pertonix gives out in the middle of nowhere.

Z
 
#9 ·
Cal,

I am repeating what I think you just said to make sure I understand.
Your #1 reading (across coil + & - terminals) of 2.1 Ohms sounds reasonable not knowing what coil you are using.

Your #2 (from coil HV output to coil +) of 10.66k also sounds pretty decent.

I am not sure I understand what you measured for #3 but it may be a problem. "...coil to distributor wire". Could you explain exactly what that means. Anything I can think of to fit those words should be much, much lower than 2600 Ohms and could well keep your engine from running.
 
#11 ·
I'm not an automotive electrical guru but, Do you have another coil laying around?? I'd suggest swapping that out for a temp check for spark. this would be the easiest swap to see if you can get spark/ignition.
 
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#12 ·
Ivy66gt.
I should have explained a little better as there are two wires going to the dist from the coil, my apologies. The wire leading from the spark plug wire leading from the top of the coil that connects to center top of the dist cap is the one I tested for resistance.

zray
I performed this test.
Removed coil wire leading to distributor cap.
Positive terminal connected (going to ignition)
Negative terminal connected (going to lower part of distributor)
With meter set at DCV20 connected meter positive to positive terminal and meter negative to negative terminal and got his reading 0.17.

All other variations of this test i.e, connecting or unconnecting negative terminal and or center coil wire yielded 0.00

I'm capable but not proficient with a multi-meter so I apologies in advance for any confusion it might cause. So is it possible that the "snafu" was the the cause of this problem?
 
#14 ·
Solved. It was the condenser. Was able to get a few minutes to go get one and put it on. Fired right up THANK YOU ALL.

One question, do you think it might have been arcing the battery. If not what might have caused this to happen. The distributed is less than a year old?
 
#15 ·
Hello CalSchumacher,
Great News and thanks for posting the ressults

I would also like to give a thumbs up to sp66stang
who suggested the condenser

As far as what happened - -I am about 99.9% certain your issue
had nothing to do with the arcing.I think you just got a bad condenser.
The parts today are not all that great. I suggest a quality set of points, rotor and condenser
from "Blue Streak" they have copper posts and contacts. I have been running them for years
and years - -they may cost a little more - -but worth the few dollars extra

Again - -congrats and thanks - -Print Dad
 
#16 ·
Hello CalSchumacher,
Great News and thanks for posting the ressults

I would also like to give a thumbs up to sp66stang
who suggested the condenser

As far as what happened - -I am about 99.9% certain your issue
had nothing to do with the arcing.I think you just got a bad condenser.
The parts today are not all that great. I suggest a quality set of points, rotor and condenser
from "Blue Streak" they have copper posts and contacts. I have been running them for years
and years - -they may cost a little more - -but worth the few dollars extra

Again - -congrats and thanks - -Print Dad
 
#17 ·
There arcing all right, it was at the points though,. good point about the quality of condensers these days. The best ones are the NOS Autolite or MotorCraft. Plenty of those on eBay and from the usual sellers of NOS Ford parts,

Z
 
#18 ·
A condensor, the way they are constucted, is capable of failure at any time, even when new. If you are careful to not cut yourself, open your old one up and look at the layers of metal foil and thin insulator material, coiled up with the wires connecting the metal foil plates to the case and the outside wire, its amazing they last at all. Doesn't hurt to carry a spare, I do, but I have never had to use it. If the points get a little pitted or dirty, you can clean them up with a little 400-600 grit silicon carbide sandpaper. And on lubricating the point set, the distributor cam lobes should have been cleaned and coated with point lubricate, then put a little dab of lubricant between the rubbing block toward the movable point contact (this way as the rubbing block on the points wear, it will add more lubricate to the cam lobes). Glad you got it fixed. Good luck.
 
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