I run a gaming forum with a two other friends, and a few core members as mods. We do almost no moderation, and have no policy as far as flaming and cursing, as long as it doesn't blow out of proportion. This is a differen't case though as we have about 2000 members, compared to AFM we are nothing. If we were that big, we would probably have rules close to the same, with tight moderation. At the end of the day the rules are up to the discretion of the AFM staff. . . If you start letting things slide, it could turn into a huge flame fest that would drive more people off than those who are offended of the rules. That's how I see it atleast!
I personally like the filters. They usually leave the first letter and then just put stars so you know what word they are using. I am 18, and I have friends on here who are younger than me, for example, my friend Darren. Yes your new 05-09 may be expensive but a decent classic where most of the younger members is rather affordable. I got my Mustang one month before my 16th birthday. It also shows to visitors and members of other forums that we aren't a bunch of foul-mouths.
We are all guests on this forum plain and simple... we do not own it. Honestly, there is not a lot in this world that offends me but I still appreciate being able to read posts without all the childish bickering and name calling that you see on other sites. I see the non-allowance of certain words less of a censorship issue and more a value of the rules created by the owners of the site and they should be respected like it or not. I liken it to driving in the United States... it's a privilege not a right. We have the privilege of being here and conduct ourselves accordingly so we may continue to visit.
Pretty simple.
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First, I would like to remind everyone that I was simply sparking a discussion. Read back over my questions at the end, and you'll start to understand. I just wanted to discuss a current topic having to do with the rules and management of the forum - I was not trying to start a fight with anyone.
Second, I would like to say that I greatly appreciate every single minute that the hard working and dedicated staff has put into this forum. I, of all people, should understand how much work it takes to keep a place like this running - it's a ton, trust me.
Last, I'm going to move on to some quotes that jumped out at me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daboyho50
If we were that big, we would probably have rules close to the same, with tight moderation. At the end of the day the rules are up to the discretion of the AFM staff. . . If you start letting things slide, it could turn into a huge flame fest that would drive more people off than those who are offended of the rules. That's how I see it atleast!
You have an absolutely great point. The size of the forum changes the entire game. As far as the flame fest goes, you're correct there as well. However, I do think that there should be a mutual respect between staff and members, which might include a slightly less strict set of rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarist9008
As for the revenue of a successful forum; I believe respectable vendors would be more interested in a forum that protrays itself in a professional manor as AFM does. Take a look around...Some of the largest Mustang part distributers sponsor AFM.
Very good point. However, I do feel that loosening up on the rules would not change the forum into a disaster area that reputable vendors would not want to invest in. I'm not talking about deleting rules as a whole - just loosening the reigns a bit. But, like I said earlier, it's just my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 05horse
yea well when u think about it. its not the mods at all
there is a single man who owns this site
the mods answer up to him.
That's absolutely correct. It's a dictatorship - which could be good or bad. Just about everything you pointed out in this thread made a great deal of sense, so thank you for the input.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jep23
The Moderators have the right to run the forum how they want to run it.
The Moderators do not run the forum and I was not complaining about them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snackmaster
We are all guests on this forum plain and simple...
Most likely the most accurate statement made so far. We are all guests and this forum is nothing but a privileged. It's free, what more could we ask for? However, we as members do benefit the management / owner(s) of this forum, so there should be mutual respect between the staff and members. I feel that in many ways, mutual respect does exist here. I was simply concerned that through very strict rules, it might deteriorate. I've seen it happen first hand.
Everyone, thanks again for your time. Although Staff is yet to reply to this thread, I'm sure that you've read it and at least considered what I have to say. Please don't take my words the wrong way. Like I said, I appreciate everything you guys do - you're a great team.
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Regards: Gotadime View my CarDomain by clicking my Home Page Link Official CarDomain Blog Contributor!
Doggone it! Why didn't anybody tell me there was an adult gallery of half-naked women? All I've seen is the "hot car babe" section with girls dressed in clothes that are legal to wear in public. Is there a special password to gain access to the pictures of the half-naked women? Maybe it is one of the perks that comes with achieving Top Dog status? If there is any correlation between how many posts you have and how many of the half-naked pictures you can access, then I will finally understand why stlwagon has over 73,000 posts on AFM.
An entire new conspiracy theory has been born!
I love it, Gary. Great post!
As for how this site is structured...
Its NOT the easiest way to run a site. All the moderators are unpaid volunteers. The owners of the site care deeply about the members, and about the site and its history. A LOT of uncompensated effort goes into the decisions made, and even small things are hashed out and examined.
Perhaps one indication of the basic good value to be found here is WITHIN discussions just like this thread, where criticism and active debate are freely exchanged, and where any member who wishes to can voice his or her opinion.
If there is a proof of the success and worth of AFM it is to be found in threads like this, and members like these, who would never invest so much time, pro and con, if it were not worth the effort.
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tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
Perhaps one indication of the basic good value to be found here is WITHIN discussions just like this thread, where criticism and active debate are freely exchanged, and where any member who wishes to can voice his or her opinion.
If there is a proof of the success and worth of AFM it is to be found in threads like this, and members like these, who would never invest so much time, pro and con, if it were not worth the effort.
Very good point you have. I completely agree. I hope you read my previous post.
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Regards: Gotadime View my CarDomain by clicking my Home Page Link Official CarDomain Blog Contributor!
For myself, I would not have stayed here if it were not for the site rules. I visited another site once! I was so appalled, I do not want to see "f" this "f"that every other word. They way people talked down to others made me sick.
I came here and felt safe. I am a Christian, not perfect by any means but chose not to subject myself or family to foul language and I do not go into the gallery of "half naked" women LOL.
These are choices I have made and having a site that allows me to feel somewhat safe in that respect is important to me.
I agree most are here to share and learn, but as the old saying goes a few apples can spoil the whole barrel. If you bend here or there on the rules, when will it end? Everyone's opinion on what is considered vulgar is different. We have kids here I have seen from 12 on up. The Hallidays (owners) and the moderators strive to keep the forums as family and work friendly as possible.
If it ain't broke why fix it?
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Getting ready to love life again! Dreams do come true! __________________________________________________ 2006 Mustang GT
And yet j e s u s is blocked and buddha, mohammad, yaweh, etc. aren't. That is my beef. Block them all or not at all.
I am also a Christian, and I consider that offensive. But I am not quitting the board over it. I just don't understand why Christians are singled out. Maybe some explanation of the rationale behind that is in order.
Frank
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I don't know why it is, I understand I spell it like you to get around that too!
Possibly because of the cursing people use it with? I don't know for sure sorry
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Getting ready to love life again! Dreams do come true! __________________________________________________ 2006 Mustang GT
I feel that The Halliday's, all the moderators, and all the staff that contribute here want to make this a place where anyone at any age with an interest in any make of Mustang (or cars in general) can feel at home. I wouldn't want a twelve year old kid who has a strong interest in the Mustang be subjected to a never ending barrage of curse words just because he's a twelve year old kid (I have seen this on another site) and I think the moderators don't want to see this either. I feel that the people that run this site do everything to make this a very family-friendly site. As with any on-line community there may be disagreements, heated arguements, and, of course, the occasional flamer. That's why there are established rules and regulations that are enforced by the moderators and the decisions that are made, to the best of their knowledge and abilities, are for the good of the site, for the members, and for those whose browse through it. And I think they do a darn good job.
I'm on about 4 Mustang sites, this by far is my favorite. The people here just seem to be a bit more mature and nicer here. I have no problem with it myself.
And yet j e s u s is blocked and buddha, mohammad, yaweh, etc. aren't. That is my beef. Block them all or not at all.
I am also a Christian, and I consider that offensive. But I am not quitting the board over it. I just don't understand why Christians are singled out. Maybe some explanation of the rationale behind that is in order.
Frank,
The reason j e s u s was included in the filter was to prevent it from being taken in vain and used in a derogatory fashion, as a form of swearing. It was certainly never intended to insult or offend anyone in doing so and have no objection to removing it unless someone else does.
Austin,
Let me start off by thanking you for starting this thread and providing us all with the opportunity to weigh in on our site rules and the overall management of this site.I would also like to thank our moderator team for doing such a great job and for all their hard work and effort.
Before replying to each of the points you raise and there are a few, let me first provide some background about this site for those who may not be familiar with our history and purpose.
AllFordMustangs was started back in 2002 with a vision and purpose of providing a friendly, comfortable and informative online community where All Ford Mustang owners and enthusiasts would feel welcome and be able to enjoy their Mustang hobby with fellow enthusiasts, without fear of flaming or abuse.
Key to achieving this vision was establishing clearly defined rules, guidelines and policies which all members, moderators and administrators alike would be expected to follow. These rules would serve as the foundation from which our community would be managed and moderated.
This did not come without many hours of discussion and debate. The founding members of this community were committed to making AFM the best community it could be for all of our members. In order to make this a reality, we recognized the need to establish well thought out rules of conduct for our community. With that intent in mind, the merits of each and every rule was discussed and debated at length to ensure the need and justification. As a result, when AllFordMustangs was launched in 2002, we were the first and only Mustang community on the web to have published rules, policies and guidelines. Even today, I believe we are the only site to also publish moderator rules. Funny as this may sound but I originally wanted to call our rules, our member’s bill of rights because in a way, that is exactly what they are. Over time our site rules have evolved as needed but not before careful consideration and discussion within our moderator and admin team, and always with the best interests of our community at heart.
From the very beginning AllFordMustangs has always put our members first. Everything about this site is based on that core principle and it remains the core principle driving this site today. Unlike many other Mustang sites which are now corporate owned, AFM is not about collecting eyeballs for revenue or building corporate empires on the backs of auto enthusiasts. AFM was started as, is and always will be 100% for Mustang enthusiasts, by Mustang enthusiasts and yes, owned and operated by Mustang enthusiasts.
One thing you can remain sure of, this site will always put our members first and through helpful and open discussions like this, continue to do so.
Now with regard to the points that you raised:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotadime
One thing that I've learned from my experience is the following (my Golden Rule): Your members fuel your forum. They are the forum. Without them, you would have nothing. No topics, no posts, no activity, no ads, no revenue.Do not wrong them. When you begin to "bite the hand that feeds" or "persecute" your members, you're effectively stabbing yourself in the gut. One of the most prominent ways that forums begin to take a turn for the worse is by creating ridiculous rules and enforcing them too strongly.
On this we agree and so does our entire admin and moderator team. Much effort has been made to make sure each and every one of our rules serve to make AFM a better community for all of our members and on whole, we believe that they do. Of course, nothing is ever perfect and there is always room for improvement which is why we are always open to suggestions and feedback from our members. As things change, sometimes so must our rules to accommodate.
Simply having rules is not enough. That is only one half of the equation. You also need a well trained moderator team who can effectively moderate and exercise good judgment and common sense in how they are enforced. When enforcing any rule or policy, there is always the challenge of finding the right balance between being too lenient or too strict and finding that balance is not always easy.
In fact, this is one of the most challenging, difficult and time consuming responsibilities of being an AFM moderator. This is not something they take lightly and
Our goal is to ensure all members are treated equally and fairly across all forums on our site and when in doubt, to always give the benefit of the doubt to the member.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotadime
Now, what is the central topic of this forum? Mustangs. What are Mustangs? Cars. What is the average age of a car owner and enthusiast? 16 and older, with the smallest population being teens, considering that the Mustang is in a slightly higher income class. With this said, we can safely assume that the majority of people on this forum and visiting this forum are adults.
Our members range in age from kids to senior citizens, representing many different generations of people with varied ethic, cultural and educational backgrounds from low to high income brackets and all with differing views on everything from faith, morality and sex to politics, culture and just about everything else in between.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotadime
If you take a look in the gallery of this forum, you will see pages upon pages of images with half-naked women posing on the hoods of Mustangs. Now, although I appreciate these galleries, I have found what I see to be a contradiction in the philosophy behind the new rules created for this site. The adult galleries are entirely acceptable for the crowd that visits this forum. They are not closely monitored or censored when provocative images are uploaded, simply because the viewers of this site can handle them.
First off let me first correct you on the following two points.
One being there are no adult galleries, hidden or otherwise, on this site and there never has been.
Secondly, all image uploaded to our galleries are closely monitored and moderated by our gallery administrator. Each and every comment posted to our gallery is also reviewed and moderated. We have where necessary, removed both offense images and derogatory remarks.
Now regarding the whole issue surrounding nudity, this is a topic where many members differ in what they consider acceptable or not acceptable and where they define crossing the line to be. After much debate and discussion we decided to follow the same standards set by prime time television. In other words, if it was deemed acceptable for prime time television then it was acceptable to us. As for your reference to half naked women posing on the hoods of Mustangs, I can only think that this is in reference to some of those skimpy bikinis being worn and if so, think back and remember Baywatch.
As for your reference to “new rules”, you got me there. I don’t follow what you mean by “new rules”. Our site rules have been in place since this site was launched in 2002 and as I mentioned above, AFM was actually the first Mustang site to introduce site rules on the web. While overtime there has been minor changes, overall they are basically the same rules we have had since day one. You will need to clarify what you mean for me to provide a response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotadime
Now, on to the contradiction. The "adult" gallery is entirely acceptable and widely viewed. From that gallery, you can take the idea that AFM is actually a pretty chill, useful site. However, when you get to the posts, you see a different side of the rules. You will notice that many words are all of the sudden being "censored" through word filters and moderator edits. My question is, are we not all adults? If we can view the "adult" galleries, can we not handle the language? Do we not have the right to discuss topics like adults? Are you trying to hide who we really are?
There is no contradiction in the standards and rules applied to our gallery and to those applied to our forums. They are indeed exactly the same. As I explained, we do not and never have had any form of adult galleries on AllFordMustangs and the exact same word filters and site rules apply to all comments posted to the gallery, as they do to the forums.
We are not all adults because there are more than just adults visiting this site. We receive plenty of emails and pm’s from grateful parents, many of them members, thanking us for having a community they feel comfortable allowing their children to visit. We have also received our fair share of emails from children asking this or that about a specific Mustang, often because their father or other family member has or previously owned one. Believe me, the next generation of Mustangers are well on their way. I will address your comments regarding filtered words and adult topics as part of my response to another of the points you raised.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotadime
We cannot have images or links in our signatures, we cannot post links to any competitor sites (which does nothing but show lack of confidence from the management), we must have at least 15 characters per post, we cannot discuss topics like adults. Heck, we can't even begin to have heated discussions of any kind, which adults have the absolute right to do, correct? What can we do? What entices people to stay?
We do not allow images in signatures because as others have mentioned, they serve no practical purpose but instead clutter up the forums and distract from the actual discussions. At one point we did give it a try but within a short period of time it was removed at the request of our members, for the very reasons I just stated.
We do not allow links in signatures because doing so encourages the creation of spam accounts by people with absolutely no interest in being a part of our community other than for the sole purpose of building back links or promoting whatever site or products they are peddling.
We have a 15 character posting requirement to help eliminate frivolous and meaningless postings such as “thanks”, “back at ya”, “too cool”, “ya right”, “yup”, "", “see ya”, "" and the list goes on. Before we implemented this rule we used to see a lot of these types of posts throughout the forums often by members who were posting to simply increase their post count.
As for having heating discussions of any kind, check out our hot zone and you will find plenty of heated discussions on a wide range of controversial topics. You will find you can pretty much discuss any topic, adult or not, as long as you, respect the opinions of others whether you agree or disagree. Members are expected to show respect for other members of our community and that includes during heated debates. It is not a matter of being an adult. It is a matter of being respectful of other members. Simple as that. As for what entices people to stay, our members will have to answer that one for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotadime
The sole thing has always kept me here is the wonderful people on this forum. But, to be honest, I can find that at nearly any Mustang Forum. Naturally, if rules begin to aggravate me enough, I will leave. As I have learned in the past, so will many other people - about 90%.
Austin I do agree that it is the wonderful people on this site that make AllFordMustangs such a great online community to be a part of. As for our rules aggravating you, these are the same rules you agreed to when you joined our community in July 2008 and they are the same rules we have had since 2002. This is why we state in our rules: “if you feel for whatever reason you are unable to follow these simple rules, we respectfully request you move on to greener pastures”. We recognize there will always be those who take issue with one or more of our policies and may indeed be better finding another Mustang community more to their liking. Different strokes for different folks. No harm in that.
Now onto your questions for AFM management:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotadime
Do you feel that word censors and strict enforcement is entirely necessary? Do you feel that it is so necessary, it would be worth losing a massive amount of loyal, contributing members over it? Do you not feel that it would simply be easier to post reasonable rules and suspend / bann the extremely small amount of "trouble makers" that will stumble upon this forum? Do you feel that as adults, we cannot manage ourselves correctly, so you must step in and "correct" the situation with word filters and mod edits? Do you respect your members as adults and the entire reason that this forum is successful?
Austin, each and every one of our site rules are there for the benefit of this community as a whole. Our word filter consists of words which are generally accepted as obscene, sexually explicit, profane or those taken in vane and misused as a form of profanity. In addition to being highly offensive to some of our members, they are also words often used to slander, insult and flame another person.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotadime
Work closely with your members. Do not put yourself on a power trip - it never works out. Ask your members what they think of every single action you plan on taking, before you take it. And take what they have to say extremely seriously. Treat your members the way they should be treated: like adults.
On this we can fully agree.
As for your questions to our community, we encourage all of our members to speak up, voice their opinions and we look forward to hearing from them.
Regards,
__________________
Scott Halliday
Site Administrator
1992 Red 347 Automatic Limited Edition Convertible
1991 Red 5.0L 5-Speed Hatchback
1989 Black 5.0L 5-Speed Coupe
" and the list goes on. Before we implemented this rule we used to see a lot of these types of posts throughout the forums often by members who were posting to simply increase their post count. 
