If this little adventure turns out well for them (and it seems to be going that direction), I would look for the danger of Russian expansion into these areas to increase dramatically. I attached a map showing the potential flare points in a post above.
Thanks for the map.
Sounds like time for a good old fashioned cold war. Could be good for the techno-economy. Where's Raygun when you need him?
__________________
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Last edited by countymounty; 08-13-2008 at 06:39 PM.
Reason: merge
Agreed. But keep in mind that it is also a strategic resource for the United States as well. They (Georgia) also wanted to become a member of NATO... which would have given them more "protection" (even if just on paper) than they have had since the fall of the Soviet Union.
I feel that what Russia did by granting citizens of another country "Russian Citizenship" was wrong but it is not a new thing. There are other peoples who have duel citizenship around the world. But I don't think it should be used as an excuse to invade a country.
Those citizens who want to leave their country and become Russian should be allowed to leave Georgia and its territories. But at least to me that is not what Russia wants, they want to reclaim land and are using the "people" as an excuse. Sorry, take the PEOPLE then, and leave the land.
Examples have been given concerning the United States and they have been a little off, but the base idea is correct. If (for instance) people in California were given "Mexican Citizenship" even though California is NOT a part of Mexico, and then a group of Californian people decided to succeed from the United States and BECOME part of Mexico again and the United States sent troops to stop this from happening and people were fighting over it.... Mexico would then send troops to "stop the fighting" but not stop at that, the would also invade Arizona and other States.
The whole thing is messed up IMHO, and about the resources and land, NOT the people. Russia is using the people as an excuse to reclaim land and resources they lost when the Soviet Union fell. And the real problem is that this sets the stage for other actions aimed at former Soviet States.
Trying to equate it to what the US did concerning Iraq is just a ploy and the actions are not even close to being the same. People think the US is interested in "Empire Building"? LOL I think not. We are "team building" where each nation has its own government and say in matters. Russia on the other hand is ALL about Empire Building. They lulled those who want to believe that with talking and rational thinking all the nations of the world can get along and not gobble up smaller nations.
Russia didn't stop being Russia, they just sat it out for a bit and gained some "street cred" among their former enemies... now they are coming out swinging. And if folks think this is the end of it, think again.
.......... then again I could be wrong......
Bravo Sam.
Nice job.
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
Trying to equate it to what the US did concerning Iraq is just a ploy and the actions are not even close to being the same. People think the US is interested in "Empire Building"? LOL I think not. We are "team building" where each nation has its own government and say in matters. Russia on the other hand is ALL about Empire Building. They lulled those who want to believe that with talking and rational thinking all the nations of the world can get along and not gobble up smaller nations.
You see it as "team building", and perhaps that is accurate, but I am still inclined to agree with the assessment that others have made - that our 'teambuilding' means we end up with all the drawbacks of empire building (spread out all over the world with military resources in other countries and financial resources spread out all over, as well) without the benefit of actually having an empire (meaning we can't 'tell' other countries to help us when we need it, we have to 'ask', and they can turn us down, no matter how much we have done for them or how many favors we are owed.) I do agree that Russia never stopped being Russia - and will take one step further and say that Putin (the real power in that country), at heart, has never stopped being a KGB agent and 'good' Soviet citizen, comrade. I think he'd like nothing more than to get the 'band' back together for another round of the Hammer and Sickle boogie.
I do think there are parallels between the justifications given for invading Iraq and the justifications given by Russia for invading Georgia. That is not to say that the reasons for doing so are the same, but reasons and justifications can be different. If you mean that Russia is using that as a ploy to cover their real intent, I certainly agree. Unfortunately, what matters is if the rest of the world perceives similarities when and if we ask for backing to stop Russia. It bugs me that the U.S. has to seek world approval for everything we do, but that is the position we are finding ourself in, partly because we are already spread all over, including our involvement in Iraq.
You see it as "team building", and perhaps that is accurate, but I am still inclined to agree with the assessment that others have made - that our 'teambuilding' means we end up with all the drawbacks of empire building (spread out all over the world with military resources in other countries and financial resources spread out all over, as well) without the benefit of actually having an empire (meaning we can't 'tell' other countries to help us when we need it, we have to 'ask', and they can turn us down, no matter how much we have done for them or how many favors we are owed.) I do agree that Russia never stopped being Russia - and will take one step further and say that Putin (the real power in that country), at heart, has never stopped being a KGB agent and 'good' Soviet citizen, comrade. I think he'd like nothing more than to get the 'band' back together for another round of the Hammer and Sickle boogie.
I do think there are parallels between the justifications given for invading Iraq and the justifications given by Russia for invading Georgia. That is not to say that the reasons for doing so are the same, but reasons and justifications can be different. If you mean that Russia is using that as a ploy to cover their real intent, I certainly agree. Unfortunately, what matters is if the rest of the world perceives similarities when and if we ask for backing to stop Russia. It bugs me that the U.S. has to seek world approval for everything we do, but that is the position we are finding ourself in, partly because we are already spread all over, including our involvement in Iraq.
Oh no doubt that the expense is huge and the end reward is far less than true Empire building... no arguments from me on that. I have said for a LONG time that we should not be in the business of "nation building" or even simply paying to "build" nations for one reason or another. We end up with all the risk, financial burden (and even that of human lives) with far too few of the advantages that building an actual empire provides (even if for just a short amount of time).
As for similarities between us and Iraq and Russia and Georgia... I am not quite with you on all of that. I also don't think anyone HONESTLY believes that there is a similarity between the two. I know some will try to say there is, but I don't think it will fly on the International stage.... no matter how much some dislike what we did concerning Iraq.
I do agree though that I too dislike that it appears that we have to 'ask' every time we do something. but I predict that the "cowboy" the world loves to hate (but loves whenever they need it) will become much more popular should Russia (and I believe they will) continue their actions to include other former Soviet States.
__________________
- Sam
The shackles of opression and dependence are most easily slipped on with a smile and kind words of hope.
I dont reckon its possible to stop injecting liberal political spin into a topic that has very little to do with US politics huh?
Georgia is a strategic asset to Russia and will always be. The military action by Georgia regarding its two provinces was all Russia felt was needed to retake Georgia. It's a scene that may likely play out with other former states that comprised the Soviet Union
Quote:
Originally Posted by shartley
Agreed. But keep in mind that it is also a strategic resource for the United States as well. They (Georgia) also wanted to become a member of NATO... which would have given them more "protection" (even if just on paper) than they have had since the fall of the Soviet Union.
I feel that what Russia did by granting citizens of another country "Russian Citizenship" was wrong but it is not a new thing. There are other peoples who have duel citizenship around the world. But I don't think it should be used as an excuse to invade a country.
Those citizens who want to leave their country and become Russian should be allowed to leave Georgia and its territories. But at least to me that is not what Russia wants, they want to reclaim land and are using the "people" as an excuse. Sorry, take the PEOPLE then, and leave the land.
Examples have been given concerning the United States and they have been a little off, but the base idea is correct. If (for instance) people in California were given "Mexican Citizenship" even though California is NOT a part of Mexico, and then a group of Californian people decided to succeed from the United States and BECOME part of Mexico again and the United States sent troops to stop this from happening and people were fighting over it.... Mexico would then send troops to "stop the fighting" but not stop at that, the would also invade Arizona and other States.
The whole thing is messed up IMHO, and about the resources and land, NOT the people. Russia is using the people as an excuse to reclaim land and resources they lost when the Soviet Union fell. And the real problem is that this sets the stage for other actions aimed at former Soviet States.
Trying to equate it to what the US did concerning Iraq is just a ploy and the actions are not even close to being the same. People think the US is interested in "Empire Building"? LOL I think not. We are "team building" where each nation has its own government and say in matters. Russia on the other hand is ALL about Empire Building. They lulled those who want to believe that with talking and rational thinking all the nations of the world can get along and not gobble up smaller nations.
Russia didn't stop being Russia, they just sat it out for a bit and gained some "street cred" among their former enemies... now they are coming out swinging. And if folks think this is the end of it, think again.
.......... then again I could be wrong......
That was a lot to read to see my comment somewhat paraphrased.
It seems very apparent that most people agree that Georgia is a strategic asset. I didnt say it was NOT an strategic to the USA. However, I feel it is a more strategic asset for Russia given the resources, the resource infrastructure that can be controlled, and the availability of ports.
How strategic is Georgia, to the USA? Will we sends troops to defend it? Naw. Will Russia send troops to take it? Obviously they will and it sends a shot across the bow to former Soviet States and the West in the process
That was a lot to read to see my comment somewhat paraphrased.
It seems very apparent that most people agree that Georgia is a strategic asset. I didnt say it was NOT an strategic to the USA. However, I feel it is a more strategic asset for Russia given the resources, the resource infrastructure that can be controlled, and the availability of ports.
How strategic is Georgia, to the USA? Will we sends troops to defend it? Naw. Will Russia send troops to take it? Obviously they will and it sends a shot across the bow to former Soviet States and the West in the process
I didn't paraphrase what you wrote, I made a post which contained some of the same statements in different words.
I agree that it is more strategic to Russia than the US, yet we both know that it is important to both of us. But I too agree that we will not send in troops (directly) to protect it. Now if it was not Russia involved, and we didn't already have several irons int he fire, we would more than likely send in troops. But it is as it is..... So we can only hope that our other allies will take the ball and run with it while we prompt them and cheer them on.
__________________
- Sam
The shackles of opression and dependence are most easily slipped on with a smile and kind words of hope.
LOL, Richardson was once our UN Ambassador, so you'd think he would understand how that body works (or more correctly, how it does NOT work)!
So I'm going to give this "short-list-of-candidates-for-Vice-President" member the benefit of the doubt, and assume he means what he says.
When he proposes that the proper way to address Russia's aggression against Georgia is to "...get a measure passed by the Security Council", he is being serious...
OK, let's call this new way of handling major international conflicts via UN diplomacy "The Richardson Doctrine".
Its an amazing and subtle policy, really - and I say "subtle" because the great unwashed may never comprehend that "The Richardson Doctrine" and "ignoring the problem and hoping it will go away" are synonyms.
LOL, Richardson, once our Ambassador to the UN, KNOWS that the Russians hold a VETO on the Security Council!
I think "The Richardson Doctrine", particularly combined with the "hey, I'm on vacation, whazzat you're asking?" confused and mumbling response from his future running mate, followed by "Now is the time for Georgia and Russia to show restraint"...
Well, its a match made in heaven.
Our official policy would be to throw it into a black hole in the UN Security Council chambers, wring our hands, and encourage all parties to "Play nice" with vague pc pronouncements from on high!
McCain/Bush Speak Loudly While Carrying a Small Stick
On this I could write an entire book, but the Republicans have fallen into the trap predicted by a Russian General (and SEVERAL others) with regards to the invasion of Iraq in 2003.
For all their bluster, there is nothing we can do, and the Russians are parading all over Georgia to prove it.
Can we supply the Georgians with equipment? -NO, we can't even spare the equipment to fight our own natural disasters, much less supply the Georgians with equipment to fight off the Russian Army. The GAO has already stated that the equipment we have is in a serious state of disrepair, needing BILLIONS of dollars to get to the state of equipment before the war.
Even if we could, China could yank the carpet out from under us by either refusing to fund our debt any longer or demanding payment. Cutting the manufacturing pipeline would reduce us to beggars, as we manufacture nothing, and China is even manufacturing our computers and supplying our troops with equipment.
Furthermore, Russia simply cuts the energy pipeline to the rest of Europe.
Can we do anything about Iran? -Reference the above.
Can we strike ourselves - reference the above, and then throw in Russian backed Iranian attacks into Iraq via the Shiite Majority.
Can we give them economic aid? -With WHAT? Reference China. The budget and trade deficits have weakened the dollar to unimaginably low levels already.
I doubt Exxon-Mobil and the Billionaires will forfeit their tax cuts and subsidies for the protection of a small democracy. -The only thing we can do is threaten nuclear war, but no one's going to do that over Georgia.
While the NeoCons and Conservatives were kicking sand in the face of Russia while looking deeply into the eyes of Putie-Poo, China stepped behind us to pull the rug buried beneath the sand.
We have fallen for our own hubris.
________________________________________-
The Irony of it all, is that France - probably the most energy independent and populous of the "Old Europeans" is taking the lead to save the "New Europeans."
All Bush can do is run his mouth. To which Putin says, "What are you going to do about it? -I didn't think so."
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
American military units mounting what will become a massive humanitarian airlift into Georgia started arriving yesterday with an Air Force cargo plane loaded with supplies.
More will arrive today.
Meanwhile, Russia is STILL pouring armored units and mechanized infantry into the small country, and has now moved beyond Gori, and closer to the capital, Tblisi.
I would humbly suggest to President Bush that those military humanitarian missions be accompanied with armed aircraft and Marines - just to insure the safety of our personnel and the relief organizations on the ground, of course.
Inadvertantly including a C5 full of stinger shoulder-launched missiles might happen, too. Sure, they would have to be off-loaded to get to the relief supplies, and then placed under tight guard in some local warehouse to make sure they are not "improperly appropriated" by anyone...
I'd say some local security guard and his pet cat would be appropriate protection.
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
By an odd coincidence, Poland has just signed a comprehensive defense contract with the United States, including no fewer than 10 missile defense installations.
The Czech Republic recently concluded a similar treaty.
Russia had been making loud noises about this agreement. If their recent "peacekeeping" efforts in Georgia were intended to cow the Poles into submission, it really does not seem to have worked very well.
PS and UPDATE: Turns out 2 tiny American kids (girls aged 7 and 3) were visiting their maternal Grandfather in Georgia when hostilities broke out, and are trapped on the farm right now:
NOTE TO PUTIN: Anything happens to them, during your fake "cease fire" complete with continued bombing, or otherwise, and Americans are going to freak out. Like the Incredible Hulk tells bad guys when they are really pushing their luck:
"Don't make me angry. You won't like me when I'm angry".
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
Last edited by tripleblack; 08-14-2008 at 05:23 PM.
Look at a freaking map, S. Ossetia is part of Georgia, N. Ossetia part of Russia. The second Province the Russians invaded is ALSO a part of Georgia.
Both areas are areas with oil, so the invasion has more to do with deepening the stranglehold Russia has with Europe in supplying oil and natural gas.
What actually happened would be more comparable to Mexican Americans fighting in Southern Texas to join Mexico, and taking the oil with them.
Or ethnic Russians in Alaska doing the same.
_____________________________
The Wet Towels represent the will of the people.
It seems you would prefer a dictatorship, so long as you agree with the dictator.
Hold the presses, but I got to agree with KS on this point.
But I disagree with this being Bush's fault, there is nothing we can really do unless you want an all out war with Russia. Even if we were not in Afghanistan or Iraq there is still nothing we could really do except for the humanitarian aid and maybe military aid. Using the "we are over streached" excuse is a red herring.
Unless you want a fight with Russia over a place 90% of Americans could not find on a map. And look at the logistics involved, what a nitemare!
__________________
06' GT Tungsten gray,seq. turn sigs. no spoiler.
XM,
An armed man is called a citizen.A disarmed man is called a subject.
KS, don't fall for the excuse that all of our military equipment is in a state of disrepair. Look at the numbers, we are down to under 130,000 troops in Iraq and that number is falling monthly, in Afghanistan we are using light armor or no armor mostly helos, look at the terrain. We are having no losses in heavy armor. Most of our tanks and light armor is now in depots in Germany and the US. How many fighters and bombers are we losing in combat? zero. The main reason we cant do much militarily in Georgia is the fact we don't want or need a shooting war with Russia right now. Because after all as you too pointed out the nuke factor.
Europe is the one that needs to get on the ball with this issue. After all Russia can make their lives very cold and uncomfortable this winter by turning a couple of valves!
__________________
06' GT Tungsten gray,seq. turn sigs. no spoiler.
XM,
An armed man is called a citizen.A disarmed man is called a subject.
Hold the presses, but I got to agree with KS on this point.
But I disagree with this being Bush's fault, there is nothing we can really do unless you want an all out war with Russia. Even if we were not in Afghanistan or Iraq there is still nothing we could really do except for the humanitarian aid and maybe military aid. Using the "we are over streached" excuse is a red herring.
Unless you want a fight with Russia over a place 90% of Americans could not find on a map. And look at the logistics involved, what a nitemare!
I consider this a major strategic error linked to serveral OTHER major strategic errors, one of them being the invasion and rebuilding of Iraq.
By commiting the first error invading Iraq, we laid ourselves open to our SECOND strategic error, soliciting and receiving aid from countries like Georgia. We should accept such aid ONLY if we are willing to stand behind that country. Given the fact that tiny Georgia was ALREADY partially occupied by Russia - and FAR too close to and involved with the Bear - its a military strategic error as well as a political one.
Georgia's problems with the 2 break-away provinces and Russia have been going on since day one when the Soviet Union fell apart! This is no abrupt shift in policy on Russia's part - it was a live hand grenade laying there waiting for someone to pick it up.
Another strategic error involves the extremely questionable personal relationship between Putin and Bush. As McCain has so vividly described, unlike the soulful connection that Bush discerned from looking into Putin's eyes, McCain saw simply "K - G - B". Personal miscalculations like this can have huge repercussions - just look at what happened when FDR cuddled up to "Uncle Joe" Stalin!
The final strategic error involved the surrounding (and even more important) nations involved in this passion spiele. The Ukraine shares a huge border with Russia - has some similar problems with civil unrest and even attempted assassination of its leadership by Russian operatives - and is a worthy candidate for NATO membership. By presenting Russia with this opening in Georgia, the situation in ALL the ex-Soviet Republics bordering Russia is changed, and NOT for the good.
Now that the issue has been raised from background noise to headline status, what comes next!
Put out the fires in Georgia, cede Russia its earlier status in the 2 provinces, and try to heal Georgia's wounds...
And push through quick acceptance of Ukraine into NATO and the EU.
Otherwise, all the readers of this thread should take a gander at the map showing the civil unrest all along Russia's borders in 15 other nations and imagine Georgia times 10,000.
Time to quit imagining things and get real.
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
Can we supply the Georgians with equipment? -NO, we can't even spare the equipment to fight our own natural disasters, much less supply the Georgians with equipment to fight off the Russian Army. The GAO has already stated that the equipment we have is in a serious state of disrepair, needing BILLIONS of dollars to get to the state of equipment before the war.
The US has been selling military equiment to Georgia for years through the FMS / FMF program just like we do for many other countries. The only exception has been the fact that Russia opened up the cyber front in this conflict and we didnt sell Georgia any Geeks . . . or common sense.
Who in their right mind would take hostile action against 2 pro-Russian provs . . . located on the Russian border and NOT expect to get spanked in return. Obviousy Georgia.
And to further prove Georgia's lack of common sense, Russia has had off and on since the early 1990s upwards to 3,000 "peacekeepers" in South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
