I vote we send some troops over to the Russian Embassy in Washington and snag 4 Mercedes and hold them hostage until we get the Humvees back.
If Russia is planning to leave Georgia, the signs are not exactly clear. They appear intent on squatting on the oil terminal in Poti (so much for this being all about "self defense of Russian lives".
I hope someone in Washington is keeping score. This one needs some payback...
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
I vote we send some troops over to the Russian Embassy in Washington and snag 4 Mercedes and hold them hostage until we get the Humvees back.
If Russia is planning to leave Georgia, the signs are not exactly clear. They appear intent on squatting on the oil terminal in Poti (so much for this being all about "self defense of Russian lives".
I hope someone in Washington is keeping score. This one needs some payback...
I saw that somewhere, thought it was more then 4 though. also grabbed the Georgian soldiers standing next to them.
__________________
“If it rolls, floats, flies or shoots, runs on gasoline or gunpowder, goes fast or shoots a big bullet and makes lots of noise, thus producing torque and recoil — it’s cool.” --Sterling Moss, Society of Torque and Recoil OhFour GT Drop top * Kenne Bell 9PSI I/C * Ford Racing 03 Cobra aluminum radiator * Full length welded subframe connectors * Couple of AutoMeter gauges, Grill delete kit * ZR3 Active laser countermeasures front and rear * Escort X50 blue radar detector *Clifford RSX3.5 Alarm
I saw that somewhere, thought it was more then 4 though. also grabbed the Georgian soldiers standing next to them.
No, just 4, according to the article I linked in. They towed them off with APCs, there's a shot of one of them leaving with the article.
Also said they let the Georgian troops go, but blew up a little missilbe boat in the harbor that belonged to the Georgian navy...
Maybe its because I LIVE in "Georgia" (USA, of course), but there's something personal about the Russians stealing our Humvees that really makes me mad.
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
They'll probably usethem for target practice. By the way, what's the Ruskie equivalent of a hummer?
__________________
“If it rolls, floats, flies or shoots, runs on gasoline or gunpowder, goes fast or shoots a big bullet and makes lots of noise, thus producing torque and recoil — it’s cool.” --Sterling Moss, Society of Torque and Recoil OhFour GT Drop top * Kenne Bell 9PSI I/C * Ford Racing 03 Cobra aluminum radiator * Full length welded subframe connectors * Couple of AutoMeter gauges, Grill delete kit * ZR3 Active laser countermeasures front and rear * Escort X50 blue radar detector *Clifford RSX3.5 Alarm
No, just 4, according to the article I linked in. They towed them off with APCs, there's a shot of one of them leaving with the article.
Also said they let the Georgian troops go, but blew up a little missilbe boat in the harbor that belonged to the Georgian navy...
Maybe its because I LIVE in "Georgia" (USA, of course), but there's something personal about the Russians stealing our Humvees that really makes me mad.
This was Ap/ Fox news version:
"Along with the soldiers, the Russian troops also took away a container holding U.S. military property: Five U.S. military regular humvees and one armored humvee, according to Alan Middleton, CEO of Poti Sea Port. They had been used in a military exercise recently in Georgia involving U.S. and Georgian troops and were being shipped back to a European base."
__________________
“If it rolls, floats, flies or shoots, runs on gasoline or gunpowder, goes fast or shoots a big bullet and makes lots of noise, thus producing torque and recoil — it’s cool.” --Sterling Moss, Society of Torque and Recoil OhFour GT Drop top * Kenne Bell 9PSI I/C * Ford Racing 03 Cobra aluminum radiator * Full length welded subframe connectors * Couple of AutoMeter gauges, Grill delete kit * ZR3 Active laser countermeasures front and rear * Escort X50 blue radar detector *Clifford RSX3.5 Alarm
This was Ap/ Fox news version:
"Along with the soldiers, the Russian troops also took away a container holding U.S. military property: Five U.S. military regular humvees and one armored humvee, according to Alan Middleton, CEO of Poti Sea Port. They had been used in a military exercise recently in Georgia involving U.S. and Georgian troops and were being shipped back to a European base."
OK, well, the pic with the AP/MSNBC article I linked to showed the russians towing one of the Humvees away. No container that I could see, it was on its wheels.
The update on the AP byline was "14 minutes ago", so its pretty fresh, BUT Fox might have their own source with more info.
If the creeps stole 4 of our Humvees or 6, I'm just as mad about it.
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
Those Humvee's were in containers waiting to be shipped back to Germany.
Bottom line here is that the Russians are on the move. They are flush with Petro-Dollars and as the price of oil drops the Russians are getting worried their entire economy is based on two things, oil and arms. I challange anyone here to and find something "made in Russia" at any store or web site. OK, Vodka. Thats it.
Russia is now seeing how far they can push the west, this thing in Georgia was planned out months if not years ago. Anyone notice how fast they were able to move armored divisions into Georgia? According to Stratfor two of those divisions were based near the Ural mountains, 2000 miles away. Western Europe is acting weak and scared. Eastern Europe knows what it is like living with the Bear.
Bottom line is the Cold War is back, get use to it!
__________________
06' GT Tungsten gray,seq. turn sigs. no spoiler.
XM,
An armed man is called a citizen.A disarmed man is called a subject.
Those Humvee's were in containers waiting to be shipped back to Germany.
Bottom line here is that the Russians are on the move. They are flush with Petro-Dollars and as the price of oil drops the Russians are getting worried their entire economy is based on two things, oil and arms. I challange anyone here to and find something "made in Russia" at any store or web site. OK, Vodka. Thats it.
Russia is now seeing how far they can push the west, this thing in Georgia was planned out months if not years ago. Anyone notice how fast they were able to move armored divisions into Georgia? According to Stratfor two of those divisions were based near the Ural mountains, 2000 miles away. Western Europe is acting weak and scared. Eastern Europe knows what it is like living with the Bear.
Bottom line is the Cold War is back, get use to it!
What about Russian Matryoshka dolls?
No doubt the Ruskies were looking for an excuse to show off their military prowness, and Georgia gave them (what they considered) one.
__________________
“If it rolls, floats, flies or shoots, runs on gasoline or gunpowder, goes fast or shoots a big bullet and makes lots of noise, thus producing torque and recoil — it’s cool.” --Sterling Moss, Society of Torque and Recoil OhFour GT Drop top * Kenne Bell 9PSI I/C * Ford Racing 03 Cobra aluminum radiator * Full length welded subframe connectors * Couple of AutoMeter gauges, Grill delete kit * ZR3 Active laser countermeasures front and rear * Escort X50 blue radar detector *Clifford RSX3.5 Alarm
Russian exports to the US include furs, metals (gold, silver, platinum, paladium, etc), caviar, liquors (the vodka), etc.
They do a great deal of business with Europe, of course.
I agre with all that you say. This was no accident, and they had just been waiting for the numbskull hotheads in Georgia to make their move to smack them down. If the US and NATO had not reacted quickly and strongly with diplomatic initiatives and threats, Russia WOULD have conquered the whole country and taken it over.
IF the Cold War is back, this time Russia doesn't have the es-Soviet Union on its side (meaning it is 1/3 as large, 1/3 as strong (other than nukes, and its always been overkill there), and looking at re-conquering some pretty tough folks VERY determined to stay out from under their boots.
I think the goals in that area are smaller than might be thought. I also think Russia has SO much to lose from trying to toss their weight around that they will come into line pretty fast.
If not...
They will lose 3 times quicker this time than last time.
Without the Soviet Union, Russia has a problem projecting power beyond their own borders. Them beating up on Georgia was like us beating up on Grenada, for crizzakes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by napalmbomb
Those Humvee's were in containers waiting to be shipped back to Germany.
Bottom line here is that the Russians are on the move. They are flush with Petro-Dollars and as the price of oil drops the Russians are getting worried their entire economy is based on two things, oil and arms. I challange anyone here to and find something "made in Russia" at any store or web site. OK, Vodka. Thats it.
Russia is now seeing how far they can push the west, this thing in Georgia was planned out months if not years ago. Anyone notice how fast they were able to move armored divisions into Georgia? According to Stratfor two of those divisions were based near the Ural mountains, 2000 miles away. Western Europe is acting weak and scared. Eastern Europe knows what it is like living with the Bear.
Bottom line is the Cold War is back, get use to it!
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
IF the Cold War is back, this time Russia doesn't have the es-Soviet Union on its side (meaning it is 1/3 as large, 1/3 as strong (other than nukes, and its always been overkill there), and looking at re-conquering some pretty tough folks VERY determined to stay out from under their boots.
Just an illustration of how tough some of those Eastern European types that Russia is threatening can be:
The now late uncle of a very good friend of mine was a in the OSS and was in Europe (mostly England) before the U.S. had officially entered WWII and when our folks were officially there only in a 'training and advising' capacity. There were troops and workers from many nations - some of whom had been forced to retreat as the Nazis took their home countries - training and operating from that base. When the decision was made to mount an effort to try and retake Poland, a group of Polish paratroopers all but begged for the honor of being the first troops in to attempt to free their homeland - and their request was granted. Well, long story short, things didn't go as well as planned. As those paratroopers drifted toward the earth, they were spotted by German troops on the ground who cut loose on the Polish troops - who were basically sitting ducks - with automatic weapons. The only survivor among the Polish paratroopers was their leader and he was rescued and brought back to the base in England for medical treatment. His wounds were, apparently, pretty horrific - he was literally perforated in a diagonal line from his waist on one side of his torso to his shoulder on the other. However, when they landed and the base and a couple of guys started to lift the stretcher he was on to carry him to the medical facilities, my buddy's uncle was watching and saw this short, horribly wounded Polish paratrooper push those guys away, stand up and walk, under his own power and with his back straight and head held high, to where he needed to go. Folks from that kind of stock are not people I'd want to try and push around.
Russian exports to the US include furs, metals (gold, silver, platinum, paladium, etc), caviar, liquors (the vodka), etc.
They do a great deal of business with Europe, of course.
I agre with all that you say. This was no accident, and they had just been waiting for the numbskull hotheads in Georgia to make their move to smack them down. If the US and NATO had not reacted quickly and strongly with diplomatic initiatives and threats, Russia WOULD have conquered the whole country and taken it over.
IF the Cold War is back, this time Russia doesn't have the es-Soviet Union on its side (meaning it is 1/3 as large, 1/3 as strong (other than nukes, and its always been overkill there), and looking at re-conquering some pretty tough folks VERY determined to stay out from under their boots.
I think the goals in that area are smaller than might be thought. I also think Russia has SO much to lose from trying to toss their weight around that they will come into line pretty fast.
If not...
They will lose 3 times quicker this time than last time.
Without the Soviet Union, Russia has a problem projecting power beyond their own borders. Them beating up on Georgia was like us beating up on Grenada, for crizzakes.
The first thing that needs to be done is boot them out of the G8, but the Europeans have signed a pact with the devil with their dependence on Russian oil and gas. It might be a long cold winter, if you get my drift.
No, I don't think this will be the same "Cold War" that you and I grew up in. This one will be more of a economic/ military one. Both sides know what nukes can do, excluding the Islamo-fascist.
There was a radio show the other nite from Moscow talking about the economic boom there. apparently Moscow is the fastest growing city in the world right now, but it is all built on oil money and the way it was described it is a house of cards with hyper inflation.
__________________
06' GT Tungsten gray,seq. turn sigs. no spoiler.
XM,
An armed man is called a citizen.A disarmed man is called a subject.
Now they want to stop pretending to "cooperate" with NATO's military.
LOL, we are seeing some oddball exchanges of "punishment" between NATO and Russia...
Reminds me of two bureaucrats fewding within the US State Department:
Bureau. A: We will cease copying you on the USDofS form 1093's because you have failed to obey guideline B of line C of agreement J! Get with the program or else!
Bureau. B: Hey, you can't threaten us! WE will no longer participate in Agreement J, and furthermore, we are going to KEEP the rotating bowling trophy we won last week!
At some level all this nonsense WILL boil down into something real, but right now, its just pouting and posturing.
Of more concern is whether or not Russia's agreement to withdraw from Georgia is worth anything...
Counting on Russian promises is like performing a sex act through a barbed wire fence - at some point in the process you always ask yourself what the heck you were thinking when you trusted them in the first place!
PS: Syria spent the day sucking up to Russia, perhaps performing its usual function as go-between for Iran: http://www.michaelsavage.com/
Looks like Russia has the yen to stick its nose into the Middle East mess again.
Finally: Russia is now saying that their response to the new US/Polish Alliance will "Go beyond diplomacy".
The Georgia debacle started on May 4, 2006, with a longer and more considered statement, by Vice President Cheney, in Vilnius, Lithuania. Cheney there threatened Russia with a new Cold War if Russia did not capitulate to American demands of cheap oil for Russia's pro-American neighbors. "Russia has a choice," he said. The same curious locution, with its undertone of parental menace -- the parent who stops payments and knows when to use the whip -- was employed by President Bush addressing Iran in 2007. "Iran has a choice." Has a nation ever talked to another nation in this style? But then, has there ever been a nation that sees itself as America sees itself in the 21st century? "Russia has a choice" -- the language of a man with his hand on his gun, very sure of his moral as well as physical superiority. This is the language of omnipotence, barely disguised. It is ill-adapted for the purposes of social intercourse, yet finely adapted to threats that have a quality at once intimate and public; threats, indeed, part of whose function is to abort diplomacy.
______________________________________
This speech was read closely by Vladimir Putin. He commented obliquely on the manner as well as on the substance of Cheney's Vilnius speech without mentioning it by name, in a stretch of his "Person of the Year" interview in Time on December 31, 2007:
In recent years, we have been told, We are looking forward to meeting you and welcoming you to our civilized Western family of nations. Well, why would you decide that your civilization is the best? There are much more ancient civilizations in this world. Secondly, they tell us, or they hint to us, we are prepared to accept you but our family is a patriarchal family and we are the patriarchs here. In the modern world there may no longer be such relationships. The bloc system of relations must be replaced by an altogether different system based on common rules that are called international law.
In the Time interview, Putin took his stand on the authority of international law against the system of commercial and military alliances which he saw the U.S. building up unnecessarily.
U.S. encouragement and recognition of the independence of Kosovo was the clear policy sequel to the Vilnius speech: a gesture that could only have been read by Russians as a deliberate provocation. They said so at the time. But their indignant reaction barely made the front pages here, and Americans were poorly instructed about its causes. It was a violation of UN resolution 1244, assuring the territorial integrity of Yugoslavia, and an open challenge to the security of Russia's regional ally Serbia. Putin said of the American ratification of Kosovo's permanent secession on February 22: "The precedent of Kosovo is a terrible precedent, which will de facto blow apart the whole system of international relations, developed not over decades, but over centuries." Notice that, as in his comments on the Vilnius speech, Putin here compared the American web of alliances with the uniformity of international law. He said in February of the Western nations that had recognized Kosovo: "They have not thought through the results of what they are doing. At the end of the day it is a two-ended stick and the second end will come back and hit them in the face."
We have now seen the second end of the stick, after Kosovo's separation from Yugoslavia. It is the separation of South Ossetia and Abkhazia from Georgia. There can be little doubt that Putin had this in mind already when he spoke in February.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tripleblack
I consider this a major strategic error linked to serveral OTHER major strategic errors, one of them being the invasion and rebuilding of Iraq.
By commiting the first error invading Iraq, we laid ourselves open to our SECOND strategic error, soliciting and receiving aid from countries like Georgia. We should accept such aid ONLY if we are willing to stand behind that country. Given the fact that tiny Georgia was ALREADY partially occupied by Russia - and FAR too close to and involved with the Bear - its a military strategic error as well as a political one.
Georgia's problems with the 2 break-away provinces and Russia have been going on since day one when the Soviet Union fell apart! This is no abrupt shift in policy on Russia's part - it was a live hand grenade laying there waiting for someone to pick it up.
Another strategic error involves the extremely questionable personal relationship between Putin and Bush. As McCain has so vividly described, unlike the soulful connection that Bush discerned from looking into Putin's eyes, McCain saw simply "K - G - B". Personal miscalculations like this can have huge repercussions - just look at what happened when FDR cuddled up to "Uncle Joe" Stalin!
The final strategic error involved the surrounding (and even more important) nations involved in this passion spiele. The Ukraine shares a huge border with Russia - has some similar problems with civil unrest and even attempted assassination of its leadership by Russian operatives - and is a worthy candidate for NATO membership. By presenting Russia with this opening in Georgia, the situation in ALL the ex-Soviet Republics bordering Russia is changed, and NOT for the good.
Now that the issue has been raised from background noise to headline status, what comes next!
Put out the fires in Georgia, cede Russia its earlier status in the 2 provinces, and try to heal Georgia's wounds...
And push through quick acceptance of Ukraine into NATO and the EU.
Otherwise, all the readers of this thread should take a gander at the map showing the civil unrest all along Russia's borders in 15 other nations and imagine Georgia times 10,000.
Time to quit imagining things and get real.
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
Sakashvilli shows McCain to speak loudly while carrying a small stick-Words to deeds
"Yesterday, I heard Sen. McCain say, 'We are all Georgians now,'" Saakashvili said on CNN's American Morning. "Well, very nice, you know, very cheering for us to hear that, but OK, it's time to pass from this. From words to deeds."
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
Russian Army: Car Thieves 
