Let em tank if they cant compete with other auto makers.
I have issues with a CEO making $40,000 a day in pay and compensation crying on the taxpayers shoulder for a bailout.
Yah my Math Professor lost $250,000 dollars of his retirement in stocks due to the higher ups in the big 3 making $250,000,000 a year, and having the fortitude to ask for a handout.
Why dont they just say we will only take a fraction of our salary this year?
It wouldnt solve everything but it is a start... if they are going to cut workers for the payroll expense to be saved why not cut their own salaries?
__________________
1990 Lincoln Mark VII LSC
FMS Ceramic Shorties, pacesetter off road h, force mufflers, 3 row radiator, smog eliminator pulley, underdrive pullies, Yukon 3.55 gears, posi diff... Waiting in garage: rebuilt block, Crane 1.7 rr, bare GT40 cast heads, Summit billit distributor, 9mm plug wires, MSD blaster coil, GT40 upper and lower intake, E303 cam 70% of drivers say "oh Sh** when they hit ice, the other 30% are from Michigan and say "Hold my beer and watch this sh**!"
The way the first couple of posts went, I thought I was going to be alone in my answer but thankfully, some level headed members responded.
I am completely against the bailout of the Big 3. It was poor management decisions and UAW that got them in this mess, let them file for Bankruptcy, re-organize and get rid of the UAW and they will be better off.
People on the assembly line making $78/hr + benefits. People having their healthcare paid for them who no longer work there, corporates flying around in G4 jets making millions is absolutely ridiculous. When will it end? Who's next? I didn't see any handouts when I filed Bankruptcy? No one was standing there helping me out? I made the mistakes with my finances and paid the price on my own, so should they.
Maybe after Obama get's in we can all just quit our jobs and sit around and wait for him to spread the wealth.
Go with PI heads and quit watching The Fast and the Furious. (thanks 2 IhaveadopeGT)
Remember, it is almost impossible for anyone, myself included, to diagnose a problem over the internet without seeing the car. My advice is simply that, advice based on years of experience. I don't want you or anyone taking my word as gospel. I am trying to give some direction as to what I think may be happening.
The way the first couple of posts went, I thought I was going to be alone in my answer but thankfully, some level headed members responded.
I am completely against the bailout of the Big 3. It was poor management decisions and UAW that got them in this mess, let them file for Bankruptcy, re-organize and get rid of the UAW and they will be better off.
People on the assembly line making $78/hr + benefits. People having their healthcare paid for them who no longer work there, corporates flying around in G4 jets making millions is absolutely ridiculous. When will it end? Who's next? I didn't see any handouts when I filed Bankruptcy? No one was standing there helping me out? I made the mistakes with my finances and paid the price on my own, so should they.
Maybe after Obama get's in we can all just quit our jobs and sit around and wait for him to spread the wealth.
What gets me is when folks who are FOR the additional loans (for whatever reason, and they often vary) say to those who are AGAINST it "But you can't punish the workers."
WHAT?!?! Who is "punishing" anyone? They don't work for ME. But it is MY money they are asking for to help save the company from mismanagement and greed (by both the workers AND the management). Government loans are not a RIGHT, nor is saying NO "us" punishing anyone. If folks want to blame anyone for lost jobs they can blame the CEOs of the companies as well as the Union that they belong to.
Don't blame ME, or say I am punishing anyone because I don't think the companies should be loaned more money.
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- Sam
The shackles of opression and dependence are most easily slipped on with a smile and kind words of hope.
Actually yeah, the workers are partly to blame. If it wasn't for the union and it's reps who THE WORKERS vote for, those contracts would not enable such ridiculous wages.
It's their boat, let them go down with it.
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Sometimes I think that government fits that old-fashioned definition of a baby: An alimentary canal with an appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other.
- Ronald Reagan
Actually yeah, the workers are partly to blame. If it wasn't for the union and it's reps who THE WORKERS vote for, those contracts would not enable such ridiculous wages.
It's their boat, let them go down with it.
That right. That is why these cars are costing so much. High labor costs gets passed down to us. I do not feel sorry for them one bit.
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2002 Saleen S/C Coupe
#293 Torch Red
Power in the hands of a few
I posted as against the bailouts loans, but I do feel sorry for the UAW workers. They will be the big losers here. you KNOW the CEOs and other big shooters will STILL be making their millions a year. Whose fault is it? Hard to say. The UAW got their guys these ridiculous wages and benefits. The workers are accustomed to making outrageous wages for simple jobs like working on the line. There is NO WAY line jobs deserve those kinds of wages. A big three journeyman engineer makes less money than a guy working on the line. Is that right? All because of the UAW and it's power. All those overpaid, underworked UAW guys will have a tough time adjusting to the "mere" $35 an hour that the workers in US located plants owned by foreign companies. That's how it will shake out eventually. It's got to eventually happen. The $25billion, if given, will only delay the inevitable. Without Chapter 11, the 3 wouldn't be able to force needed labor force changes.
BTW, its interesting that there have been few comments for the bailout posted by UAW folks here. Is it because they know the truth, painful as it may be?
__________________
CW
Craigfield, Tennessee Member Music City Mustang Club '93 LX Mustang '56 Ford Thunderbird convert '06 Harley Street Glide '01 Harley Softail Custom
Last edited by moterhead; 11-20-2008 at 08:11 PM.
Reason: add comments
Hello. What congress will actually end up being bribed to do is anyone's guess, but, if we had a congress that was actually thinking about what they SHOULD do, instead of waiting to see what they will be paid to do, it should end up looking something like this.
Bailout with serious conditions.
1) No bonuses of any sort for anyone for 5 years
2) find out what people are making at Toyota, and that's what people make working for the big three
3) Compel a study to discover what traditionally has actually sold well, instead of what a manufacturer would like to have sell well, and devote 80% of production to that.
4) Demand some serious answers to the question " What are you going to do differently for the 2010 model year?" To simply try harder on an obviously flawed business model will not work. They have to make major changes in their whole way of doing business.
A lot of people don't realize that the cars that have had the best sales consistantly all started from a compact platform. The Volkswagon Beetle, the Ford Falcon ( The 1960 Falcon was Ford's best selling vehicle ever until the 1965 Mustang barely edged it out, and that was just because the 65 Mustang had a 16 month production year.) The Camaros and Firebirds were built as a competitor for the Mustang, which was built on a Falcon platform, which was a compact car. The Dodge dart and Plymouth Valiant. They sold a butt-load of those. The Corvette and the Thunderbird were attempts to break into the European-style sports car market, again, tiny little cars that performed well. Forget about grandpa's Behemoth Special. They do not sell. Forget about a 'new' car line that looks exactly like your old car line from 20 yards away. People were buying a lot of Tauruses in the nineties. Nobody but the police and cab drivers was buying Crown Vics. Taylor the production accordingly.
The bottom line would be to start building cars that people will actually buy, quit paying insane bonuses for driving the company into the toilet, and, there is no way on God's green earth that a person that tightens down the same four bolts all day long is worth 50K annually. Find out what floor sweepers at other industries are making, and pay floor sweepers that. Just because I fell into a goldmine and hauled the gold out by the bucket full for years, that does not create some sort of easement that gives me the right to continue doing that for my entire working career. That goes from the bottom all the way to the top.
Their design departments will be under contract to their creditors that bailed them out, and their jobs are contingent upon their success at designing cars that sell. If three car models go through the entire design process, makes it into production, and none of them sell well enough to pay for the process, the entire management of that design team is so fired.
RESULTS DRIVEN BUSINESS MODEL Perform well and be rewarded, perform poorly and be fired, kind of like in the real world of business.
Is it just me or does anyone else get the inkling that maybe Govt wants the big 3 to fail. With so many unemployed workers for Obamas "New Deal", and the ability to put Green requirements on any restructuring, Obama will be in the position of being a savior from the get go Jan 20.
The unemployed will be a suitable source of manpower for his New Deal green jobs. He will need many to fulfill his wish for windmills and plant overhauls. By offering a job he becomes a savior for those left jobless by an auto collapse.
By allowing the Big 3 to collapse he puts them in a position to be forced to immediately retool for green cars in order to get funding. Also he can dictate the leadership of the companies to suit his wishes.
When I say he I also infer the democratic congress. It appears that both are going to do nothing prior their break. This allows them to go home and enjoy their holidays while the unemployed worker struggles to eat and get by day to day.
Just think by Christmas us common citizens will be contemplating our futures with the collapse of the big 3, unemployment through the roof, and in world news an Israeli strike against Iran further igniting the middle east. HO HO HO
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2008 Mustang GT AOD "WYT MARE"
Hello my name is Scotty. I am a Mod addict. I have been mod free for 2 days. I am weak and will fall of the wagon.
Is it just me or does anyone else get the inkling that maybe Govt wants the big 3 to fail. With so many unemployed workers for Obamas "New Deal", and the ability to put Green requirements on any restructuring, Obama will be in the position of being a savior from the get go Jan 20.
The unemployed will be a suitable source of manpower for his New Deal green jobs. He will need many to fulfill his wish for windmills and plant overhauls. By offering a job he becomes a savior for those left jobless by an auto collapse.
By allowing the Big 3 to collapse he puts them in a position to be forced to immediately retool for green cars in order to get funding. Also he can dictate the leadership of the companies to suit his wishes.
When I say he I also infer the democratic congress. It appears that both are going to do nothing prior their break. This allows them to go home and enjoy their holidays while the unemployed worker struggles to eat and get by day to day.
Just think by Christmas us common citizens will be contemplating our futures with the collapse of the big 3, unemployment through the roof, and in world news an Israeli strike against Iran further igniting the middle east. HO HO HO
I agree. I also have a sneaking suspicion that the failure of the Big 3 has been planned, but it would be wrong to say that it was Obama behind it.
I am not an Obama supporter, but the big 3 has been sliding for longer than Obama has even been in office in Illinois...
You see how much foreign stock markets are affected by ours... it could all be set up, along with the federal reserve...
I can play conspiracy theory!
__________________
1990 Lincoln Mark VII LSC
FMS Ceramic Shorties, pacesetter off road h, force mufflers, 3 row radiator, smog eliminator pulley, underdrive pullies, Yukon 3.55 gears, posi diff... Waiting in garage: rebuilt block, Crane 1.7 rr, bare GT40 cast heads, Summit billit distributor, 9mm plug wires, MSD blaster coil, GT40 upper and lower intake, E303 cam 70% of drivers say "oh Sh** when they hit ice, the other 30% are from Michigan and say "Hold my beer and watch this sh**!"
Hi again. The auto industry going broke in the United States is the fault of nobody other than the people in the auto industry. As easy as it would be to try to blame it on government in general and the president in particular, the simple truth is that the big three have been building cars people have been declining to buy for quite some time. As is usually the case when a business goes broke, bad management is the culprit. Not bad luck, not some politically motivated conspiracy, not the gods looking down in anger, just good, old-fashioned bad decision making on the part of the people involved. If, as a side-note, a person wanted to try to blame the president, it should be the person that actually is the president, and has been for the last eight years, not the guy that will become the president in a couple of months. But this one is not Bush's fault. His having driven the economy into the toilet so that few can even afford a new car certainly didn't help matters for Detroit, but, the signs of their struggles were already apparant before anyone had even heard of a George W. Bush. They have been busily building cars that people have not been buying for a long time, especially General Motors. They were losing money in the 90s, when everyone else was doing fine.
Just heard that GM is building a new $300million plant just outside Moscow. The 3 are doing the same thing lots of other big "American" companies are doing and have done, exporting their work offshore. Chrysler has been building the Ram in Mexico for years. We have been exporting our prosperity to third world countries for years. It's hard to pick up anything in Walmart that's not made in China.
Someone mentioned conspiracy theory. It's all part of the New World Order!
__________________
CW
Craigfield, Tennessee Member Music City Mustang Club '93 LX Mustang '56 Ford Thunderbird convert '06 Harley Street Glide '01 Harley Softail Custom
I do feel sorry for the workers and their families but it has to end somewhere. As it has been pointed out in this thread, workers on the line making ridiculous wages and benefits for years now. I would imagine that because of it, they are living beyond their means(some, not all) and once again, that is their fault, not mine or yours(taxpayers). I too lived beyond my means and I paid the price when I filed for bankruptcy years ago. Nobody stood in line to give me a handout. I made my bed and I laid in it. It made me a better person and to this day (15 years later) I still don't own a single credit card.
Veronica hit the nail on the head with her post. For too many years now, they have been building vehicles based on what THEY decided, not the public. GM's motto, was what is good for us, is good for everyone and now they are paying the price.
Personally, I don't see the Bush administration bailing them out but I fully believe the Obama adminstration will.
If he doesn't, they still don't have anything to worry about because his "spread the wealth" plan will take care of everyone who is too lazy to go to work.
Go with PI heads and quit watching The Fast and the Furious. (thanks 2 IhaveadopeGT)
Remember, it is almost impossible for anyone, myself included, to diagnose a problem over the internet without seeing the car. My advice is simply that, advice based on years of experience. I don't want you or anyone taking my word as gospel. I am trying to give some direction as to what I think may be happening.
Let's see now, "Spread the Wealth". Another way of saying the exact same thing is "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need". Who said that? Karl Marx. The father of socialism. Obama IS an avowed socialist. I'm afraid.
__________________
CW
Craigfield, Tennessee Member Music City Mustang Club '93 LX Mustang '56 Ford Thunderbird convert '06 Harley Street Glide '01 Harley Softail Custom
Hi again. The auto industry going broke in the United States is the fault of nobody other than the people in the auto industry. As easy as it would be to try to blame it on government in general and the president in particular, the simple truth is that the big three have been building cars people have been declining to buy for quite some time. As is usually the case when a business goes broke, bad management is the culprit. Not bad luck, not some politically motivated conspiracy, not the gods looking down in anger, just good, old-fashioned bad decision making on the part of the people involved. If, as a side-note, a person wanted to try to blame the president, it should be the person that actually is the president, and has been for the last eight years, not the guy that will become the president in a couple of months. But this one is not Bush's fault. His having driven the economy into the toilet so that few can even afford a new car certainly didn't help matters for Detroit, but, the signs of their struggles were already apparant before anyone had even heard of a George W. Bush. They have been busily building cars that people have not been buying for a long time, especially General Motors. They were losing money in the 90s, when everyone else was doing fine.
I would say that a large part of the blame should be placed on the auto manufacturers, but it does not help to make then spend millions when they are already failing in order to do what the government mandates. such as EPA, and CAFE....
The government should stay out of the auto industry all together.
If the government stepped out I believe the CEO's, and business planners for the Auto Industry would take a lot less risks because they would not have the government to fall back on...
So in all honesty it can all be tied back to the government because they gave the Big 3 the option to fail, but still get saved.
__________________
1990 Lincoln Mark VII LSC
FMS Ceramic Shorties, pacesetter off road h, force mufflers, 3 row radiator, smog eliminator pulley, underdrive pullies, Yukon 3.55 gears, posi diff... Waiting in garage: rebuilt block, Crane 1.7 rr, bare GT40 cast heads, Summit billit distributor, 9mm plug wires, MSD blaster coil, GT40 upper and lower intake, E303 cam 70% of drivers say "oh Sh** when they hit ice, the other 30% are from Michigan and say "Hold my beer and watch this sh**!"
Go with PI heads and quit watching The Fast and the Furious. (thanks 2 IhaveadopeGT)
Remember, it is almost impossible for anyone, myself included, to diagnose a problem over the internet without seeing the car. My advice is simply that, advice based on years of experience. I don't want you or anyone taking my word as gospel. I am trying to give some direction as to what I think may be happening.
(thanks 2 IhaveadopeGT)
What congress will actually end up being bribed to do is anyone's guess, but, if we had a congress that was actually thinking about what they SHOULD do, instead of waiting to see what they will be paid to do, it should end up looking something like this. 
But this one is not Bush's fault. His having driven the economy into the toilet so that few can even afford a new car certainly didn't help matters for Detroit, but, the signs of their struggles were already apparant before anyone had even heard of a George W. Bush. They have been busily building cars that people have not been buying for a long time, especially General Motors. They were losing money in the 90s, when everyone else was doing fine.
