[tripleblack]

George Will has hit the socialist on the nail with this editorial:

George Will : Same Old New Deal? - Townhall.com

In the editorial, George looks at the 25 year-long Great Depression, which overshadowed our nation from 1929 until 1954, when the DOW finally recaptured its peak value.

Somewhere at the very beginning of that period, American socialism grabbed the reins and installed what they called "The New Deal".

The more leftward academics have been telling us for decades that the New Deal brought us out of the Depression, but their logic is pretty shakey. For one thing, our biggest industrial/financial collapse happened in 1937, NOT 1929, after (and because of) the New Deal.

For those who like to look at History for insight into modern events, Republican President Herbert Hoover sought to fight the crash of 29 by hugely increasing Federal Spending (sound familiar?). He bumped the budget more than 50% until Franklin Delano Roosevelt took his place.

Unemployment was 17.2%, and it would REMAIN at that level until 8 years later, when FDR's own Treasury Secretary, Henry Morgenthau, noted:

"I say after eight years of this administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started,"

[quote] In "The Forgotten Man: A New History of the Great Depression," Amity Shlaes of the Council on Foreign Relations and Bloomberg News argues that government policies, beyond the Federal Reserve's tight money, deepened and prolonged the Depression. The policies included encouraging strong unions and wages higher than lagging productivity justified, on the theory that workers' spending would be stimulative. Instead, corporate profits -- prerequisites for job-creating investments -- were excessively drained into labor expenses that left many workers priced out of the market.

In a 2004 paper, Harold L. Cole of UCLA and Lee E. Ohanian of UCLA and the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis argued that the Depression would have ended in 1936, rather than in 1943, were it not for policies that magnified the power of labor and encouraged the cartelization of industries. These policies expressed the New Deal premise that the Depression was caused by excessive competition that first reduced prices and wages, and then employment and consumer demand. In a forthcoming paper, Ohanian argues that "much of the depth of the Depression" is explained by Hoover's policy -- a precursor of the New Deal mentality -- of pressuring businesses to keep nominal wages fixed. [quote]

The role of taxes was also interesting, particularly since it was the Republican, Hoover, who set the stage for the ultimate disaster:

[quote]...Hoover's 1932 increase in the top income tax rate, from 25 percent to 63 percent, was unhelpful. And FDR's hyperkinetic New Deal created uncertainties that paralyzed private-sector decision-making. [quote]

The reaction of the banks and major American corporations to this crisis makes sense ONLY if you see the power of government stifling the free maket and destroying the chance for the free markets to function. Of course, this comment does NOT just refer to the subsequent financial crisis, but to the fact that these same meddlesome politicians set the scene for the problems to START WITH!

[quote] "By acting without rhyme or reason, politicians have destroyed the rules of the game. There is no reason to invest, no reason to take risk, no reason to be prudent, no reason to look for buyers if your firm is failing. Everything is up in the air and as a result, the only prudent policy is to wait and see what the government will do next. The frenetic efforts of FDR had the same impact: Net investment was negative through much of the 1930s." [quote]

Obama role as a renascent FDR must, at SOME point, cease to be a romantic novel and become REAL. So long as the role of FDR in perpetuating the Great Depression is suppressed or simply unknown, the odds that we will see yet another "deja vu all over again" episode are greatly increased!

[quote] Obama's "rescue plan for the middle class" includes a tax credit for businesses "for each new employee they hire" in America over the next two years. The assumption is that businesses will create jobs that would not have been created without the subsidy. If so, the subsidy will suffuse the economy with inefficiencies -- labor costs not justified by value added. Here we go again? A new New Deal would vindicate pessimists who say that history is not one damn thing after another, it is the same damn thing over and over. [quote]

George Will is a genius.

[napalmbomb]

The rest of the world came out of the depression between 1934-36. Even Germany which was effected harder than most industrialized countries came out of it in around 1936.
Someone please tell me what successful private sector jobs that have been created by the Govt.??

[BlueStreak03]

Let's hear it 3 times for big government!!!



Oh wait. There's nothing to celebrate when government keeps expanding it's girth and reach. The government does absolutely nothing in an efficient and expedient manner. Even the mighty US military is a model of how to NOT run a business or any other venture efficiently.


People will never learn how to be responsible and truly act in the best interest of the country as long as there are carrots dangled in front of them in the form of checks from the government. It's a damn shame that the elections were honestly won by the party with the biggest pile of carrots to put on those sticks.


I was watching my dog and cat last night and thought it held a massive resemblance to what this country is going through right now. You see, my cat terrorizes the dog. She stalks him around corners and on top of the couch and such. When he passes by, she swats him with claws extended and he yelps. He's so terrified of her that he now spends a large amount of his time cowering in his crate because he feels safe there instead of curled up on the couch with me and my wife. He's consciously making the decision to give up some of his freedom to roam about the house and enjoy our company for the security of his crate.


This is precisely what happened with this election cycle. The people are terrified and wanting security in the form of big government. What they don't realize though is that along with this security comes a MASSIVE trade of freedoms that we now enjoy. The Constitution does NOT GURANTEE SECURITY!! The only things it guarantees are the FREEDOMS and RIGHTS to go out and seek your own security.


Ben Franklin hit the nail on the head with his response of 'A republic ma'am, if you can keep it' when a lady asked him what they had given the country after the Constitutional Convention.

[The Greek]

It seems funny to me that all of this talk that big government is a stepping stone to a socialist govenrment. So what. After all, everytime there is a financial disaster facing this country it's the result of the failed policies of the Republican Party. Appoint your buddy, it doesn't matter if he's qualified, I owe him a favor.

How come no one wants to talk about the Silverado mess and how the Bush boys were bailed out. The whole bunch should be sitting in jail. If I had pulled the stunts that they have, where do you think I would be sitting?

Trickle down economics don't work. Greed is the reason. It's OK to hand out millions to single individuals, but not OK to hand out millions to millions. Double standards, don't you think?

The working class in our country has been subject to doing more for less. The upper classes, subject to doing less for more.

I figured that the only time that the American public were going to open their eyes and vote the Republicans and their trickle down economics out of office is when it starts hitting them in their pockets. It did and they did.

The export of American jobs overseas to primarily China (whose intentions are not in our favor), is a prime example of how to increase profits for the upper classes at the cost of working class Americans and the security of our country. Without good paying jobs, who's going to buy all of the imported goods that used to be domestically produced? Now we have our industrial base located in a Communist country. Let's feed their economy, they need the money to establish a larger more technically advanced military. Is this patriotic thinking?

I haven't seen where anyone is willing to help the masses out of this financial dilemma that we're in. Who else do they have to turn to except for the government? The party of the elite has done it again.

You're doin' a great job there, Brownie.

[tripleblack]

So this.

Socialism is anathema to a free people. Poison to their spirit, and corrosive to their work ethic.

MORE government is not automatically MORE socialism, though. In fact, many of the policies espoused by Obama (or at least, many of those which were ONCE espoused by Obama, given their vanishment from his website nowadays) are fascist rather than socialist.

Fascism (state control of the means of production in the economy) is usually the pre-cursor to socialism (state ownership versus just state control). The Bush administration's process of investing money IN private companies is something different, esentially a quasi-capitalist means of addressing the crisis, UNLESS it is followed with more investments of voting stock resulting in the government gaining direct control (at which point we have fascism).

The fact that right now the government is purchasing non-voting preferred stock means that they do NOT exercise control, and the companies retain some freedom of movement.

There is of course the danger that future invesetments would give the State actual OWNERSHIP of the majority of the company, at which point we would have neatly side-stepped fascism and gone directly to socialism. This happened in the past with AmTrak, for instance, so it is not unprecedented (though the AmTrak debacle is one that should be studied by those who see this idea as a "good one").

Greek, you need to re-read some history, if you really think that "...everytime there is a financial disaster facing this country it's the result of the failed policies of the Republican Party". Or just brush up on the current events regarding Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. I found the video of the series of hearings wherein the Democrats charged with regulation and oversight of that corrupt entity successfully defended it from Republicans seeking to correct the problem very compelling.

Also look into the source of the whole sub-prime lending debacle, which can be found under Bill Clinton.

Oh sure, the Republicans are much to blame as well, but your blanket indictment laying everything on the Republicans is just not accurate.

If you want to talk about Silverado in some thread you start, go ahead, no one is stopping you. Just remember that it belongs in a seperate thread, where it would be the topic.

Deflecting attention from one topic with another is just wasting everyone's time and bending site rules that makes work for us moderators.

But this IS a very wide-ranging topic - FDR's New Deal, and Obama's reprise version. If you can actually show where Silverado (or any other Republican pecadillo) does something more than deflect attention from the topic at hand, it would be interesting to see your logic.

Just insulting Republicans (something which I do myself, often and with relish, though on topic) WITHOUT including some rational basis for the insult, or addressing the topic at hand, is just trolling for a fight.

Originally Posted by The Greek

It seems funny to me that all of this talk that big government is a stepping stone to a socialist govenrment. So what. After all, everytime there is a financial disaster facing this country it's the result of the failed policies of the Republican Party. Appoint your buddy, it doesn't matter if he's qualified, I owe him a favor.

How come no one wants to talk about the Silverado mess and how the Bush boys were bailed out. The whole bunch should be sitting in jail. If I had pulled the stunts that they have, where do you think I would be sitting?

Trickle down economics don't work. Greed is the reason. It's OK to hand out millions to single individuals, but not OK to hand out millions to millions. Double standards, don't you think?

The working class in our country has been subject to doing more for less. The upper classes, subject to doing less for more.

I figured that the only time that the American public were going to open their eyes and vote the Republicans and their trickle down economics out of office is when it starts hitting them in their pockets. It did and they did.

The export of American jobs overseas to primarily China (whose intentions are not in our favor), is a prime example of how to increase profits for the upper classes at the cost of working class Americans and the security of our country. Without good paying jobs, who's going to buy all of the imported goods that used to be domestically produced? Now we have our industrial base located in a Communist country. Let's feed their economy, they need the money to establish a larger more technically advanced military. Is this patriotic thinking?

I haven't seen where anyone is willing to help the masses out of this financial dilemma that we're in. Who else do they have to turn to except for the government? The party of the elite has done it again.

You're doin' a great job there, Brownie.

[BlueStreak03]

Originally Posted by The Greek

It seems funny to me that all of this talk that big government is a stepping stone to a socialist govenrment. So what. After all, everytime there is a financial disaster facing this country it's the result of the failed policies of the Republican Party. Appoint your buddy, it doesn't matter if he's qualified, I owe him a favor.

...

The export of American jobs overseas to primarily China (whose intentions are not in our favor), is a prime example of how to increase profits for the upper classes at the cost of working class Americans and the security of our country. Without good paying jobs, who's going to buy all of the imported goods that used to be domestically produced? Now we have our industrial base located in a Communist country. Let's feed their economy, they need the money to establish a larger more technically advanced military. Is this patriotic thinking?

100% wrong.

I'll only touch on the parts that I have directly quoted though for time's sake.

You don't fear the loss of personal freedoms and liberties that is coming and will only further as we blaze down the road to Socialism? I thought this was America, the land of the free and home of the brave. We don't buy into Socialist ideals because that's not what we are. We don't look to government to solve our problems because that solution always comes wit ha price tag of freedoms being encroached on. The Constitution does not guarantee our financial and lifestyle security. It guarantees us the opportunity to provide that for ourselves. The mindset of Socialism is that the government IS the solution to all problems and you MUST rely on government for everything. I do not prescribe to that ideology and it apalls me to know that there are people who do.

The GOP is NOT the cause of all major economic problems in this country, the Democrats have dealt us many of their own, most recently this housing market fiasco.

The exportation of labor to China and elsewhere is because businesses couldn't operate in the USA AND make a profit. If a business can't make a profit, that business will cease to exist. Most of this problem is brought about by massive taxes and labor costs, not to mention the stiffling constrictions that the EPA and OSHA have placed on industry. Unions and so called agencies who seek to regulate business are doing nothing more than costing us our GDP and our jobs plain and simple. The vast majority of employers in the USA would LOVE to offer benefits to workers, it makes them more attractive to the top labor available. However, they simply can't because the cost of doing business here is astronomical.

This idea that businesses are evil because they want to turn a profit is preposterous. The entire reason for a business to exist is to turn a profit. People don't start companies because they just want to create jobs, they have an economic goal in mind and they plan on reaching that goal by providing marketable goods or services.

People who buy goods made in other countries seldom have the economic liberty to discriminate on the country of origin of the good. USA made goods ARE the best in the world. However, they are also the most expensive ones on the shelf a lot of the time because the companies that make them have to recoup their cost of production including corporate taxes, labor and costs of complying with all regulation. If the stranglehold on business that's held by government were eased up, I guarantee that within 3 years, we would begin to see a large scale influx of our jobs coming back and our economy recovering NATURALLY and without government intervention which ALWAYS ends in disaster for us.

[The Greek]

So I guess what is being said here is as long as I agree with the status quo, it's alright to continue with the conservative rambling. The responses that I have received from my statements must hold some truth or I wouldn't have received the responses as I have. The well off get excited when someone of lesser means (financial) questions their idealogy.

The hypocracy and arrogance of the financially elite is exhibited in its purest form in the previous posts. I don't deserve my fair share because I wouldn't know what to do with it, so it's best that I don't ask or expect it. It will trickle down to me, so there is no need to be concerned.

If it wasn't for FDR and his social programs to help people to get back on their feet, this country would have taken a lot longer to recover from the failed (Chicken in every pot) falsehoods and policies of the Hoover administration and the conservatives he represented. It wasn't a fluke that FDR was elected to office four times. He must have been doing something right. At least for people that weren't wealthy.

FDR was born into weath, but what made him so very special was the fact that he wasn't consumed by greed and materialism or steeped in arrogance.

Twelve years of a Republican controlled congress and eight years of presidency, has shown me plenty. Is the world really only four thousand years old. Somebody in the GOP thinks so.

[shartley]

Originally Posted by The Greek

So I guess what is being said here is as long as I agree with the status quo, it's alright to continue with the conservative rambling. The responses that I have received from my statements must hold some truth or I wouldn't have received the responses as I have. The well off get excited when someone of lesser means (financial) questions their idealogy.

The hypocracy and arrogance of the financially elite is exhibited in its purest form in the previous posts. I don't deserve my fair share because I wouldn't know what to do with it, so it's best that I don't ask or expect it. It will trickle down to me, so there is no need to be concerned.

If it wasn't for FDR and his social programs to help people to get back on their feet, this country would have taken a lot longer to recover from the failed (Chicken in every pot) falsehoods and policies of the Hoover administration and the conservatives he represented. It wasn't a fluke that FDR was elected to office four times. He must have been doing something right. At least for people that weren't wealthy.

FDR was born into weath, but what made him so very special was the fact that he wasn't consumed by greed and materialism or steeped in arrogance.

Twelve years of a Republican controlled congress and eight years of presidency, has shown me plenty. Is the world really only four thousand years old. Somebody in the GOP thinks so.

No, you are free to state your opinion and NOT toe the line most members seem to be holding. But you can't think that by default your opinions can't be addressed and even rebuffed with FACT and history. But I find that a lot with those who seem to like to slam Republicans and Conservatives yet offer no real factual basis for their slams.

I personally have NO problem with ideological differences of opinion. But when those ideological differences of opinion are claimed to be supported by history and facts, when they are NOT, I do have a problem.

And the constant claim that just having a Republican President and Republican Congress is "proof" that the "Republicans" are at fault for the problems we are in gets very old when the facts show that in the cases being used it was the Democrats that were in point of fact the problem and stopped the Republicans from doing what they WANTED to do to correct a problem. That is not fair. But we don't let the facts get in the way of a good old bashing fest, right?

Now with that said, are the Republicans without blame for anything? Absolutely not. But GW and Republicans as a whole are NOT the cause of all problems our nation faces.

Also, no one is saying you don't "deserve" your fair share of anything. What is being said is that what far too many consider their "fair share" is NOT their fair share. It is what SOMEONE ELSE earned and THEIR fair share. You deserve what YOU go out and earn. And our Constitution grants you that right, and nothing more.

That means that if YOU don't work hard, or YOU don't succeed in life, YOU get what you earned.. no more, and no less. It is like going into the orchard to pick apples. If you take a basket and pick half of it and leave, and I pick two baskets, you don't get 1.5 of my baskets to make it "fair"... you get your 1/2, and I get my 2. What is elitist about that? Where is it saying that you don't "deserve" more than you EARN?

That is the difference between a Socialist type view and what the Constitution laid out. What is "nice" and "feels good" is not always "fair". It may seem so to those who benefit from the system, but it is NOT for those who support those who have not earned what they are now getting from those who DID earn it.

I will also point out that the "classic" lines of "wealth and arrogance/elitism" no longer apply to politicians like they used to. By default the Democrats are NOT the party of the "little guy" while the Republicans are the party of "the rich elitists". To think so would only show either ignorance or the use of huge blinders. Both parties pander to the "working poor" AND the "rich elite". And since we now have a "middle class" the lines between the two are often quite blurry (more so depending on what part of the country you live in).

Again though, you are free to post your opinions even if they don't mirror other posts being made by others. But don't for a second think that by default you will not be challenged for your post and stated opinions. This is the Hot Zone. Even those who agree on most issues challenge each other on certain aspects of their opinions quite often.

[BlueStreak03]

I don't know who you're referring to as 'financially elite' here. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and voicing them. What you have seen is differing viewpoints being expressed. I'm not someone who goes along to get along myself. I've been jumping and screaming that our government is broken for a few years now and I'm not the only one. Just because someone argues AGAINST the Democrat platform, don't assume they are aruging FOR the Republican platform. THere are other parties in this country. Believe me, no group in this country is more bitter about the last 8 years than REAL Conservatives, both inside and outside of the Republican party.


As for the country recovering quicker because of FDR, I believe that's 100% wrong. The fact of the matter is that you cannot spend your way out of a recession or depression. Look what the New Deal from that era has saddled us with now. None of it is what i would describe as good and most of it I would say is toxic to the general welfare of the country.

The Republicans have lost control of the Executive and Legislative brancehs of government because they deserved to be set out on their cans. They got the power and became drunk with it. The way out of this mess is NOT Socialism nor Fascism. The way out is disciplined and grass roots Conservatism in a fiscal aspect. Give the money back to the people and let the Free Market work. Get out of the way of business and let it do business and be profitable. That's the absolute best way to create jobs, creating jobs creates wealth.

[ONEZ ST]

Originally Posted by napalmbomb

The rest of the world came out of the depression between 1934-36. Even Germany which was effected harder than most industrialized countries came out of it in around 1936.
Someone please tell me what successful private sector jobs that have been created by the Govt.??

A-76 studies that eventually result in Govt contracts to private firms is an example. They can include contracting aerospace companies to maintain and launch jets at various military installations. The turnover in managing family housing from civil service to private contractors. The IRS is now using private collection agencies to do thier strong arm collections.

[BlueStreak03]

Originally Posted by ONEZ ST

A-76 studies that eventually result in Govt contracts to private firms is an example. They can include contracting aerospace companies to maintain and launch jets at various military installations. The turnover in managing family housing from civil service to private contractors. The IRS is now using private collection agencies to do thier strong arm collections.

Those may be lucrative government contracts for the people who win them, but for the tax payers, it's another massive waste of government money. Not to mention that there are big problems with the way the contracts are awarded.

[ONEZ ST]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak03

Those may be lucrative government contracts for the people who win them, but for the tax payers, it's another massive waste of government money. Not to mention that there are big problems with the way the contracts are awarded.

Contrary to your viewpoint, the contracts that the Govt awards to private business is most often won on averting cost.

This isnt new and it started almost 2 decades ago when the Govt started to convert non-mission essential jobs from military manpowwer slots to civil service slots. The major savings was realized by reduced military permanent change of station moves that often involve the added cost of moving not just the military member but his whole family and household goods. On average a military member is moved between every 2 to 5 years with officers moving more often than enlisted. These PCS moves are very costly.

After converting tens of thousands of military manpower slots to civil service, the Govt then went full bore into A-76 studies that force competition between the Govt and the private sector. The American Federation of Government employees is a staunch opponent of A-76 process because it frequently results in coversion of jobs from civil service to private sector. In some respect the award of contracts to the private sector are policed by the AFGE.

[BlueStreak03]

They may have been a huge improvement over the old system of business. There's still a ton of waste that can and needs to be cut to make things even more cost effective. I could go on for hours over about the processes that are used during a US Navy warship's time in a shipyard.

[napalmbomb]

Originally Posted by ONEZ ST

A-76 studies that eventually result in Govt contracts to private firms is an example. They can include contracting aerospace companies to maintain and launch jets at various military installations. The turnover in managing family housing from civil service to private contractors. The IRS is now using private collection agencies to do thier strong arm collections.

What I am refering to is that the govt. does not have it's workers ie. GS and WG workers out there laying the asphalt or building the planes and tanks etc. yes the govt. provides the money and contracts. With the exception of the military the govt and its agencies are very ineffeciant the reason is there is no accountability. If you screw up you are protected by arbitration and unions. The Military is another story, if all of the federal govt. was run like the military I don't think we would be having this discussion. The reason a lot of things that were done by the govt. and is now being contracted out is because of effeciancy and costs per worker.

[napalmbomb]

THEGREEK, How about explaining to us how "Trickel UP" economics works.
Did you learn all of that in Publik skol ?? LOL