hell yeah! i'm gonna go sit and watch two hours of propaganda!! what a great plan!
Personally, I've been watching 4 years of propaganda. Where are the funds for the 1st responders? the funds for aids research? the funds Bush promised for head start?
How about air quality worsening by 5% since Bush was in office? Sounds like Texas all over again. There were NO WMD, yet we pulled troops from Afghanistan when we were about to get Bush's buddy, Bin Laden.
Please. I guess you're just choosing your propaganda.
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
Kerry is a decorated WAR VETERAN. He has medals, bush has a dentist's appt. He's USED a gun in defense of the United States of America.
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
OK, so if we don't go see the movie with an open mind we shouldn't be allowed to vote?? HMMMMMMMMMM.....yeah, that sounds like a great idea. And let's just never allow open debate or freedom of choice in the country ever again. We'll just be a country of mindless drones. I refuse to go see it because I go to movies for entertainment value. If I want to hear people talk politics and listen to spin doctors, i'll watch C-SPAN or one of our many illustrious mass media networks report news. I'm not gonna spend my hard earned money to watch that. This grown up has made up his mind and I still happen to not agree with Michael Moore about just about every issue he's ever made a movie about. I really don't think that assuming people don't want to go see a political movie should disqualify them from the ranks of the intelligent. It most definitely should not place them in the ranks with felons because that's exactly what you're doing when you make a statement like 'they shouldn't be allowed to vote'. Voting is a right of every single American over the age of 18 and who is not in a federal prison.
Sometimes I wonder about the people I have sworn to defend with my life.
A voter "should" analyze all arguments before making a decision. To vote without a careful understnding of the facts is irresponsible. Should we bocome a nation of "Dittoheads?"
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
Moore has not made a single movie where his cut and paste editing does not take factual situations and make them FALSE. Anyone who knows anything about Moore, his history, his films, etc. knows that he is a fraud as well as his films.
That's not true at all. For instance, on Moorelies.com. One of the contributors called Moore a liar because he noted that the 42% of the time Bush was on vacation included weekends - SINCE WHEN IS BEING PRESIDENT A 9-5 JOB?!
The only people who call Moore a fraud are those who claim Limbaugh and O'Reilly tell the truth, when they've been caught lying ALL THE TIME.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shartley
I have a saying… Facts don’t always equal the truth. And with Moore, it is oh so true. When you arrange factual things in an manner that is not truthful, you are telling a lie.
There have been countless interviews with professionals in the media and politics that have seen the movie, and they ALL state that the movie is a total lie. And Moore himself, when cornered on the matter, openly stated that it is all his “opinion”. How can you try to pass something off as factual, but then state it is all opinon?
Please post your evidence of ALL media professionals and politicians. I doubt this claim is true. Are YOU a liar?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shartley
Moore does not make documentaries, he makes fictional work using cleaver editing, mixing with lies, and slight of hand techniques to stir up hate and misinformation. But heck, that is how he makes his money. Yeah, Mr. “Common Man/common worker” wearing sweatshirts and ripped up ball caps and hardly ever shaving…. Ask him about his bank account. Ask him about his properties. I will not go further…..
Anyone who believes a singe word out of Moore’s mouth or his films should come on over, I have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale….. I will even show you pictures of it.
It seems the interviews with the soldiers and parents of soldiers were completely true, and they have supported the movie. Are we to believe they are lying about their own feelings?
How about Bush stating that the troops get what they need, while families are having bake sales to buy body armor, that's supposedly unavailable. How about all the humvees that have no armor, because Bush refuses to do what other "wartime" presidents have done, -instuct industry to convert facilities to support the effort.
What about the torture initiative, INITIALLED BY RUMSFELD, and approved by Bush that has put our troops in harms way, after the Joint Chiefs and the State Dept practically begged the president not to do it?
How about Bush leaving those memos (Editing I suppose) out of the package turned over to the Senate hearings? He seems to edit an awful lot doesn't he?
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
kscoyote,
With all due respect… before you start to impugn my integrity and truthfulness think again. I did not fire a shot at you and I will not sit idly by while you do so at me. If you have a problem with what I say, address it on issues, not with personal attacks. This is not a spat you want to get into.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kscoyote
That's not true at all. For instance, on Moorelies.com. One of the contributors called Moore a liar because he noted that the 42% of the time Bush was on vacation included weekends - SINCE WHEN IS BEING PRESIDENT A 9-5 JOB?!
This too is misleading. How so? Because if anyone thinks that the president does not “work” while on “vacation” they are only fooling themselves. There is hardly a time when on “vacation” that the president (ANY president) didn’t also take care of national business.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kscoyote
The only people who call Moore a fraud are those who claim Limbaugh and O'Reilly tell the truth, when they've been caught lying ALL THE TIME.
This is also not true. I don’t claim Limbaugh and O’Reilly tell the truth all the time. But then again, it is easy to point to others instead of dealing with the person being discussed. This is slight of hand tactics and do not lend credibility to arguments against Moore’s constant lying. If you have a problem with others not telling the truth I would suggest you start a thread talking about those other people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kscoyote
Please post your evidence of ALL media professionals and politicians. I doubt this claim is true. Are YOU a liar?
Please refer to my opening of this post. And any simple google search (or other search) will easily find the proof you want me to provide for you. I will not do the legwork for you. And what I state is easily enough verified.
Not to mention that you read what you wanted to read… I didn’t say ALL media and politicians said something…. I said…
Quote:
There have been countless interviews with professionals in the media and politics that have seen the movie, and they ALL state that the movie is a total lie.
… as you can see, there is a difference between what you are trying to claim I said, and what I actually did….. kind of like how Moore does his stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kscoyote
It seems the interviews with the soldiers and parents of soldiers were completely true, and they have supported the movie. Are we to believe they are lying about their own feelings?
Again, I am not arguing that what he showed was not said by those saying it in the film. But that is NOT the same as saying it is the ONLY view of soldiers and families of soldiers or that because Moore wanted to put it in his movie it is the most common feelings or sentiments of these group of people. You can easily find any opinion in any group you want, that does not make it the majority opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kscoyote
How about Bush stating that the troops get what they need, while families are having bake sales to buy body armor, that's supposedly unavailable. How about all the humvees that have no armor, because Bush refuses to do what other "wartime" presidents have done, -instuct industry to convert facilities to support the effort.
And how about our troops qualifying for food stamps during times of war and peace? I could list thing after thing that is not right about the military and EVERY administration. Don’t pick and choose now because it fits your apparent hate of the current president and administration. I served under more than one president and administration (both Dem and Rep) and I can tell you that it was no better for one than the other… and we were ALWAYS in need of something.
As for Humvees…. First people have to realize what a Hummvee IS. It is NOT an armored vehicle. It was NEVER intended to be an armored vehicle. It is a fast moving, light skinned, vehicle that is used as a platform for many different types of vehicles ranging from anti-tank, anti-aircraft, personnel weapons platforms, ambulances, and troop carriers. Again, it was never intended to be an armored vehicle and in fact by making it such, you actually defeat its original purpose… to be fast, light and maneuverable. The US Military has a wide range of armored vehicles, and a Hummvee has never been on that list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kscoyote
What about the torture initiative, INITIALLED BY RUMSFELD, and approved by Bush that has put our troops in harms way, after the Joint Chiefs and the State Dept practically begged the president not to do it?
Again, if you have a problem with policy, start another thread…. this does not prove that Moore is not a bold face lyer. And in fact, I might argue that your depiction of this “torture initiative” is misleading as well….. it all depends on how we view things. And that is fine. We don’t have to agree on every issue or see things the same way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kscoyote
How about Bush leaving those memos (Editing I suppose) out of the package turned over to the Senate hearings? He seems to edit an awful lot doesn't he?
Again, this does not prove that Moore is not misleading and down right lying about things in his film. And I would once again point out that nothing you have said defends Moore, only points fingers at others. That is not an affective way to win an argument, as is shown here now. Neither is personal attacks on others who have been nothing but respectful of other members here on this forum, in spite of their opinions on matters. My integrity is not in question, and is beyond reproach…. Keep that in mind my friend.
With that, I will not comment further on this matter.
__________________
- Sam
The shackles of opression and dependence are most easily slipped on with a smile and kind words of hope.
kscoyote,
With all due respect… before you start to impugn my integrity and truthfulness think again. I did not fire a shot at you and I will not sit idly by while you do so at me. If you have a problem with what I say, address it on issues, not with personal attacks. This is not a spat you want to get into.
You're claiming ALL people among "countless" professionals say he's a liar, and misleading. This is not true, at least from what I've seen. Can you provide evidence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shartley
This too is misleading. How so? Because if anyone thinks that the president does not “work” while on “vacation” they are only fooling themselves. There is hardly a time when on “vacation” that the president (ANY president) didn’t also take care of national business.
What about 9/11? Weren't the orders to shoot down the plane delayed significantly because of "cell phone trouble?" I'd say that particular emergency showed, that like any other job, the best place to "work" is in the Office.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shartley
This is also not true. I don’t claim Limbaugh and O’Reilly tell the truth all the time. But then again, it is easy to point to others instead of dealing with the person being discussed. This is slight of hand tactics and do not lend credibility to arguments against Moore’s constant lying. If you have a problem with others not telling the truth I would suggest you start a thread talking about those other people.
I'm trying to find the sources of the basis of your attack. The only people I have heard attacking Moore are those people, and they're not trustworthy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shartley
Please refer to my opening of this post. And any simple google search (or other search) will easily find the proof you want me to provide for you. I will not do the legwork for you. And what I state is easily enough verified.
If you make the argument that Moore lies, then you have the burden of proof for your argument. I can Google "Space Aliens father Moon Baby" and get references, that does not make it true.
But again, you have the burden of proof.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shartley
Not to mention that you read what you wanted to read… I didn’t say ALL media and politicians said something…. I said…
… as you can see, there is a difference between what you are trying to claim I said, and what I actually did….. kind of like how Moore does his stuff.
Countless seems like an awful lot, at the very least, a majority. Curious as to how you can't even demonstrate a single independent source to analyze.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shartley
Again, I am not arguing that what he showed was not said by those saying it in the film. But that is NOT the same as saying it is the ONLY view of soldiers and families of soldiers or that because Moore wanted to put it in his movie it is the most common feelings or sentiments of these group of people. You can easily find any opinion in any group you want, that does not make it the majority opinion.
Exactly my point. reference above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shartley
And how about our troops qualifying for food stamps during times of war and peace? I could list thing after thing that is not right about the military and EVERY administration. Don’t pick and choose now because it fits your apparent hate of the current president and administration. I served under more than one president and administration (both Dem and Rep) and I can tell you that it was no better for one than the other… and we were ALWAYS in need of something.
As for Humvees…. First people have to realize what a Hummvee IS. It is NOT an armored vehicle. It was NEVER intended to be an armored vehicle. It is a fast moving, light skinned, vehicle that is used as a platform for many different types of vehicles ranging from anti-tank, anti-aircraft, personnel weapons platforms, ambulances, and troop carriers. Again, it was never intended to be an armored vehicle and in fact by making it such, you actually defeat its original purpose… to be fast, light and maneuverable. The US Military has a wide range of armored vehicles, and a Hummvee has never been on that list.
Again, if you have a problem with policy, start another thread…. this does not prove that Moore is not a bold face lyer. And in fact, I might argue that your depiction of this “torture initiative” is misleading as well….. it all depends on how we view things. And that is fine. We don’t have to agree on every issue or see things the same way.
Again, this does not prove that Moore is not misleading and down right lying about things in his film. And I would once again point out that nothing you have said defends Moore, only points fingers at others. That is not an affective way to win an argument, as is shown here now. Neither is personal attacks on others who have been nothing but respectful of other members here on this forum, in spite of their opinions on matters. My integrity is not in question, and is beyond reproach…. Keep that in mind my friend.
With that, I will not comment further on this matter.
Congress and the bureaucrats in the Pentagon and the Bush administration should be ashamed.
It is unconscionable that Army reservists serving with Ocala's 351st Military Police Company in Iraq were reduced to writing home this week to plead for surplus body armor from local law enforcement agencies. In a letter to his civilian boss, Sheriff Ed Dean, Army Reserve 1st Sgt. Fred Chisholm said the armor is desperately needed to line the 351st's Humvees and provide soldiers minimal but potentially life-saving protection from explosives, shrapnel and bullets frequently encountered when members of the unit go out on patrols.
That the 351st, a combat police unit that escort highly targeted supply convoys and seeks out insurgents, does not have such obviously basic equipment more than a year after combat got under way in Iraq is further evidence of how badly the Bush administration miscalculated the challenges of post-war Iraq. That no one in Congress has stood up on the floor of the U.S. Capitol and made relentless noise about this deadly supply shortfall while fighting men and women are dying daily is reprehensible. That these so-called "thin-skinned" Humvees have become rolling coffins for too many American and coalition soldiers is a well-known and heart-breaking reality.
It is uplifting, however, that Sheriff Dean and dozens of his colleagues have accomplished in three days what Donald Rumsfeld and the mighty U.S. military complex have been unable to do in the past year - that is, provide the 351st the body armor it needs. Dean, moved by Chisholm's letter, sent word to sheriffs around Florida of the need for surplus body armor. As of yesterday, the sheriff said, more than 850 bullet-proof vests - outdated, but still fully protective - had been collected and are being readied for shipment. "And we're not going to stop until they tell us to stop," Dean told us.
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
If the story gains National attention that Cliff Stearns was willing to play life-and-death games with our troops in order to influence a local election, the damage to Stearn's bid for re-election could be significant. PDF Version - Click Here
No Price Too High for Congressman Stearns
By Harold Saive - Gainesville, Fl.
Cliff Stearns has been a U.S. Congressman in Florida's 6th District since 1988. During his 16 years in office, Stearns has served on the Energy & Commerce, Veterans' Affairs, and House Policy Committees. Stearns, a Republican, lives in Ocala. His performance rating for the Vietnam Veterans of America is a mediocre 55%, while Disabled Veterans awarded Stearns a "zero" on issues important to them.
In mid-May Congressional debates began on our record-high defense spending Bill.
On May 20th, Congressman Stearns joined in a budget commitment by both the House and the Senate to provide, among other things, around $1 billion to protect forces with better armored Humvees and ballistic protection for medium and heavy tactical vehicles.
*****
The Army had previously admitted its mistake in supplying thin-skinned Humvees for hostile duty in Iraq. "It was never anticipated that there would be things like roadside bombs in the vast number we've seen here." said General Mark Hertling, assistant commander for the 1st armored division.
Dean's letter and Sergeant Chisholm's e-mail, were Faxed to Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld and U.S Congressman, Cliff Stearns - (R-FL, Dist. 6). Chisholm's letter was sent to the Marion County Congressional Delegation. When Stearns and the delegation members were asked why the armor had not been provided, they responded: "...the military didn't anticipate the insurgency."
Sergeant Chisholm is a victim of politics: An attack on the credibility of Chisholm's urgent request for more armor began when Stearns attempted to publicly humiliate Sheriff Dean. Stearns sent a letter to the Star Banner claiming the Sheriff had misrepresented the plight of the 351st Military Police Company and "included spurious accusations concerning congressional support for these troops." As if that wasn't enough, the Marion County Congressional delegation followed up by lambasting Dean for responding to Chisholm's request.
Stearns continued to waste precious time by deferring to Army sources who alleged the Humvees supplied to the 351st were "already up-armored". But Stearns had to know that only a few hundred of the promised 4,400 up-armored Humvees have been delivered to the troops in Iraq.
Then, Sgt. Chisholm reported that he was being threatened and harassed by his superiors who said he could face consequences of the U.C.M.J. which is a code for possible "Courts Martial". Chisholm's desperation and honesty apparently contradicted Lt. General Joseph Yakovac, Director of Army Acquisitions Corp., on the issue of whether additional armor had already been supplied to the Humvees of the 351st.
Stearns comments showed no compassion for Chisholm's plight. When asked if Chisholm should be disciplined, Stearns said "I don't know. That's what the Universal Code of Military Justice is all about."
Chisholm and his soldiers were already strained from working under a 90 day extention added to an original 12 month assignment. But the troops of the 351st never complained about having to stay an extra three months. Instead, they carried out their mission with the knowledge that their Humvees could become "rolling coffins" at any time.
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
FAIRFIELD - Military demand for armored Humvees has business at O'Gara-Hess & Eisenhardt armoring company humming.
Mike Kohrs (left) of Newport and Amaah Smith (right) of West Chester install an underbody on a Humvee at O'Gara-Hess & Eisenhardt in Fairfield.
(Glenn Hartong photo)
| ZOOM |
The company, sole source of armor for U.S. military Humvees, is now retrofitting the AM General Corp.-built vehicles at the rate of five a day and is studying scenarios to increase that to 8-10 a day, if the Pentagon requires, said Gary Allen, general manager and senior vice president-operations for parent Armor Holdings Inc.'s mobile security division.
"Our No. 1 mission is filling the need of the U.S. Army,'' he said. "We're focused on doing whatever it takes to do that.''
This year, O'Gara expects to install armor on more than 800 Humvees, up more than 25 percent from last year.
Allen expects production to rise again next year, although he can't say how much.
President Bush's $87 billion emergency aid request for Iraq and Afghanistan, now working its way through Congress, includes $177 million for more than 700 Humvees and spares.
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
Shartley, still claiming there's no armor for humvees?
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
I know I said I would not comment further, but your posting has prompted me to make a couple short statements…
First, I thank God that you are so passionate about something.
Second, it is clear from reading everything you posted that most of these people clearly don’t know what they are talking about. I actually served my country and could easily refute MUCH of what was posted. It is easy to misrepresent information, such as you continued to misrepresent what I actually wrote above.
LOL Think about it… I NEVER said there was no armor for Humvees. And “armor” is in itself misleading since there are so many levels and types of “armor” that now days (and in accordance with your arguments) it is useless used by itself.
I am beginning to think you have a reading and comprehension problem stemming from your buildup of hate. When you calm down and actually READ what people write and not just take what you want from things and base all assumptions on your dislike for the current administration (as is evident in ALL of your political posts on these forums), I would be more than happy to talk with you about things.
On many issues there are extremes, right and left. And both extremes are WRONG. I like to center myself with personal knowledge, realistic expectations, and remove emotion from my arguments…. You on the other hand are clearly at one extreme end. And as such, you can not be reasoned with, and in fact are not even an enjoyable person to talk to about this type of issue.
Please do not address anything I stated above. I wish not to even see what your thoughts on the matter are. I am sure you are a great person, and we probably agree on a good many things. You have just stepped over the line of what I call good form and rational calm debate on this issue. Again, I thank God that you have such passion. I just suggest that you use that passion where it will do the most good, at the voting booth, not on an internet forum where what people may think about you as a person may be clouded by what they may see as extreme rhetoric and hate.
Thank you and have a wonderful day.
Oh… I LOVE MUSTANGS!
__________________
- Sam
The shackles of opression and dependence are most easily slipped on with a smile and kind words of hope.
I know I said I would not comment further, but your posting has prompted me to make a couple short statements…
First, I thank God that you are so passionate about something.
Second, it is clear from reading everything you posted that most of these people clearly don’t know what they are talking about. I actually served my country and could easily refute MUCH of what was posted. It is easy to misrepresent information, such as you continued to misrepresent what I actually wrote above.
LOL Think about it… I NEVER said there was no armor for Humvees. And “armor” is in itself misleading since there are so many levels and types of “armor” that now days (and in accordance with your arguments) it is useless used by itself.
I am beginning to think you have a reading and comprehension problem stemming from your buildup of hate. When you calm down and actually READ what people write and not just take what you want from things and base all assumptions on your dislike for the current administration (as is evident in ALL of your political posts on these forums), I would be more than happy to talk with you about things.
On many issues there are extremes, right and left. And both extremes are WRONG. I like to center myself with personal knowledge, realistic expectations, and remove emotion from my arguments…. You on the other hand are clearly at one extreme end. And as such, you can not be reasoned with, and in fact are not even an enjoyable person to talk to about this type of issue.
Please do not address anything I stated above. I wish not to even see what your thoughts on the matter are. I am sure you are a great person, and we probably agree on a good many things. You have just stepped over the line of what I call good form and rational calm debate on this issue. Again, I thank God that you have such passion. I just suggest that you use that passion where it will do the most good, at the voting booth, not on an internet forum where what people may think about you as a person may be clouded by what they may see as extreme rhetoric and hate.
Thank you and have a wonderful day.
Oh… I LOVE MUSTANGS!
I don't hate anyone, least of all you, shartley.
I'm simply trying to get at the truth. I haven't seen the movie, but I have heard many positive things about Moore and the movie (it is currently #1 at the box office). NoobAStang saw it and recommended it to others, saying everone should see it before elections this year (Nothing wrong with that so far). Then several others began flaming him.
I have heard many negative things about Moore, and I'm sure he engages in the same sort of hyperbole that Rush and O'Reilly engage in. But, I know for a fact that he is NOT as far left as those two are right. I also have checked up on SOME of the so-called "lies" that Moore supposedly engaged in, and have found the claims to be baseless -so far.
If you can provide some basis for your claims, please post them, but otherwise, I think you should apologize to NoobAStang. I retract my statement questioning your truthfulness, but I think you should post evidence to back up your claims. -I always do.
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
Since you changed the tone of your post, I will in kind respond to put this to rest.
I will offer no apology for my posts, to anyone. None is needed.
And it is not up to me to prove my posts accurate. Heck, like I pointed out even what you posted can be debated as less than accurate and misleading… yes, even what was official statements from people who some would “think” knew what they were talking about. But I know for a fact that some of it is not accurate.
But again, I don’t have to provide any proof for what I claim. There are enough out there that know what I post is the truth.
As for Moore… if you have read as much about him as you claim, and still think everything said about him is baseless…. We are evidently reading things from alternate universes. You even posted a link to an anti-moore site (I believe… I am too busy to go and try to find it) and still claim to see no basis for doubting Moore’s work. Fine, it is clear that you don’t want to see it, not that it is not there.
I will leave you with a few tidbits to read though, and we will agree to disagree on this issue…
*******
Moore on This Week:
STEPHANOPOULOS: Random House defines "propaganda" as information, rumors, et cetera, deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, et cetera. By that definition, Fahrenheit 911 is propaganda, isn't it?
MOORE: Well, it's an op-ed piece. It's my opinion about the last four years of the Bush administration. And that's what I call it. I'm not trying to pretend that this is some sort of, you know, fair and balanced work of journalism, even though those who use the words "fair and balanced" often aren't that, but—
STEPHANOPOULOS: And your goal is to defeat President Bush.
MOORE: I would like to see Mr. Bush removed from the White House.
******
And here is part of a review by Chris Hutchens (who writes for MSN)
A film that bases itself on a big lie and a big misrepresentation can only sustain itself by a dizzying succession of smaller falsehoods, beefed up by wilder and (if possible) yet more-contradictory claims. President Bush is accused of taking too many lazy vacations. (What is that about, by the way? Isn't he supposed to be an unceasing planner for future aggressive wars?) But the shot of him "relaxing at Camp David" shows him side by side with Tony Blair. I say "shows," even though this photograph is on-screen so briefly that if you sneeze or blink, you won't recognize the other figure. A meeting with the prime minister of the United Kingdom, or at least with this prime minister, is not a goof-off.
The president is also captured in a well-worn TV news clip, on a golf course, making a boilerplate response to a question on terrorism and then asking the reporters to watch his drive. Well, that's what you get if you catch the president on a golf course. If Eisenhower had done this, as he often did, it would have been presented as calm statesmanship. If Clinton had done it, as he often did, it would have shown his charm. More interesting is the moment where Bush is shown frozen on his chair at the infant school in Florida, looking stunned and useless for seven whole minutes after the news of the second plane on 9/11. Many are those who say that he should have leaped from his stool, adopted a Russell Crowe stance, and gone to work. I could even wish that myself. But if he had done any such thing then (as he did with his "Let's roll" and "dead or alive" remarks a month later), half the Michael Moore community would now be calling him a man who went to war on a hectic, crazed impulse. The other half would be saying what they already say—that he knew the attack was coming, was using it to cement himself in power, and couldn't wait to get on with his coup. This is the line taken by Gore Vidal and by a scandalous recent book that also revives the charge of FDR's collusion over Pearl Harbor. At least Moore's film should put the shameful purveyors of that last theory back in their paranoid box.
But it won't because it encourages their half-baked fantasies in so many other ways. We are introduced to Iraq, "a sovereign nation." (In fact, Iraq's "sovereignty" was heavily qualified by international sanctions, however questionable, which reflected its noncompliance with important U.N. resolutions.) In this peaceable kingdom, according to Moore's flabbergasting choice of film shots, children are flying little kites, shoppers are smiling in the sunshine, and the gentle rhythms of life are undisturbed. Then—wham! From the night sky come the terror weapons of American imperialism. Watching the clips Moore uses, and recalling them well, I can recognize various Saddam palaces and military and police centers getting the treatment. But these sites are not identified as such. In fact, I don't think Al Jazeera would, on a bad day, have transmitted anything so utterly propagandistic. You would also be led to think that the term "civilian casualty" had not even been in the Iraqi vocabulary until March 2003. I remember asking Moore at Telluride if he was or was not a pacifist. He would not give a straight answer then, and he doesn't now, either. I'll just say that the "insurgent" side is presented in this film as justifiably outraged, whereas the 30-year record of Baathist war crimes and repression and aggression is not mentioned once. (Actually, that's not quite right. It is briefly mentioned but only, and smarmily, because of the bad period when Washington preferred Saddam to the likewise unmentioned Ayatollah Khomeini.)
That this—his pro-American moment—was the worst Moore could possibly say of Saddam's depravity is further suggested by some astonishing falsifications. Moore asserts that Iraq under Saddam had never attacked or killed or even threatened (his words) any American. I never quite know whether Moore is as ignorant as he looks, or even if that would be humanly possible. Baghdad was for years the official, undisguised home address of Abu Nidal, then the most-wanted gangster in the world, who had been sentenced to death even by the PLO and had blown up airports in Vienna* and Rome. Baghdad was the safe house for the man whose "operation" murdered Leon Klinghoffer. Saddam boasted publicly of his financial sponsorship of suicide bombers in Israel. (Quite a few Americans of all denominations walk the streets of Jerusalem.) In 1991, a large number of Western hostages were taken by the hideous Iraqi invasion of Kuwait and held in terrible conditions for a long time. After that same invasion was repelled—Saddam having killed quite a few Americans and Egyptians and Syrians and Brits in the meantime and having threatened to kill many more—the Iraqi secret police were caught trying to murder former President Bush during his visit to Kuwait. Never mind whether his son should take that personally. (Though why should he not?) Should you and I not resent any foreign dictatorship that attempts to kill one of our retired chief executives? (President Clinton certainly took it that way: He ordered the destruction by cruise missiles of the Baathist "security" headquarters.) Iraqi forces fired, every day, for 10 years, on the aircraft that patrolled the no-fly zones and staved off further genocide in the north and south of the country. In 1993, a certain Mr. Yasin helped mix the chemicals for the bomb at the World Trade Center and then skipped to Iraq, where he remained a guest of the state until the overthrow of Saddam. In 2001, Saddam's regime was the only one in the region that openly celebrated the attacks on New York and Washington and described them as just the beginning of a larger revenge. Its official media regularly spewed out a stream of anti-Semitic incitement. I think one might describe that as "threatening," even if one was narrow enough to think that anti-Semitism only menaces Jews. And it was after, and not before, the 9/11 attacks that Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi moved from Afghanistan to Baghdad and began to plan his now very open and lethal design for a holy and ethnic civil war. On Dec. 1, 2003, the New York Times reported—and the David Kay report had established—that Saddam had been secretly negotiating with the "Dear Leader" Kim Jong-il in a series of secret meetings in Syria, as late as the spring of 2003, to buy a North Korean missile system, and missile-production system, right off the shelf. (This attempt was not uncovered until after the fall of Baghdad, the coalition's presence having meanwhile put an end to the negotiations.)
(link http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/ ) And Moore has personally debated this man in the past and was crushed by him. He is an expert in middle east.
*****
Jonathan Foreman of the New York Post:
The most offensive sequence in "Fahrenheit 9/11"'s long two hours lasts only a few minutes. It's Moore's file-footage depiction of happy Iraq before the Americans began their supposedly pointless invasion. You see men sitting in cafes, kids flying kites, women shopping. Cut to bombs exploding at night.
What Moore presumably doesn't know, or simply doesn't care about, is that the building you see being blown up is the Iraqi Ministry of Defense in Baghdad. Not many children flew kites there. It was in a part of the city that ordinary Iraqis weren't allowed to visit - on pain of death.
*****
He is the review from "Roger and Me" :
Another distortion of fact from the movie
In one particularly tasteless portion of the film, Moore attempts to flag down a few congressmen and "convince" them to sign their children up for military service, thus implying that our legislators represent an "elite" who will not send their sons and daughters to die in unpopular foreign wars (a'la Vietnam). Despite the fact that no national draft has been instituted and that military service is voluntary, Moore has presented us with a half-baked half-truth.
For instance, Brooks Johnson, the son of Senator Tim Johnson (a democratic senator from South Dakota), is currently serving with distinction in the 101st Airborne.
Also, regardless of what you think of Senator Joseph Biden (D-DE), it's undeniable that he helped to pin the bars on his son, Beau Biden, who is a member of the Delaware Army National Guard (there's a picture of him being sworn in here). Although Beau isn't in the line of fire (he is currently practicing as a judge advocate), he is a military serviceman nonetheless.
Another interesting fact: Attorney General John Ashcroft, defender of the much-maligned Patriot Act and punching bag of the liberal left, has a son who is currently on active duty in the Middle East. His name is Andrew Ashcroft, and he serves in the Persian Gulf aboard a navel destroyer called the USS McFaul (you can find the reference a few paragraphs down here).
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And yes, there are more. It is easy to prove almost anything you want from any point of view, it des not mean it is the truth though, and Mr. Moore has learned that if you say what folks want to hear, and believe, it will become "truth" to them. And they will fight to the death to defend their truth.
I hope that was more in line of what you wanted to see. So with that, I say “good day” and drive safe.
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- Sam
The shackles of opression and dependence are most easily slipped on with a smile and kind words of hope.
RE: Hutchens - "Abu Nidal, then the most-wanted gangster in the world," ganster is not equal to terrorist.
"In 1993, a certain Mr. Yasin helped mix the chemicals for the bomb at the World Trade Center and then skipped to Iraq, where he remained a guest of the state until the overthrow of Saddam."
This was part of the false intel provided by Chalabi, an accused spy for Iran.
See below.
Published on Wednesday, March 3, 2004 by Knight-Ridder
Doubts Cast on Efforts to Link Saddam, al-Qaida
by Warren P. Strobel, Jonathan S. Landay and John Walcott
WASHINGTON - The Bush administration's claim that Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein had ties to al-Qaida - one of the administration's central arguments for a pre-emptive war - appears to have been based on even less solid intelligence than the administration's claims that Iraq had hidden stocks of chemical and biological weapons.
Nearly a year after U.S. and British troops invaded Iraq, no evidence has turned up to verify allegations of Saddam's links with al-Qaida, and several key parts of the administration's case have either proved false or seem increasingly doubtful.
Senior U.S. officials now say there never was any evidence that Saddam's secular police state and Osama bin Laden's Islamic terrorism network were in league. At most, there were occasional meetings.
NO EVIDENCE SADDAM INVOLVED WITH OSAMA, 9/11
A video of Al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden shown on Al-Jazeera satellite channel a day before the second anniversary of the Sept. 11th hijackings.
Moreover, the U.S. intelligence community never concluded that those meetings produced an operational relationship, American officials said. That verdict was in a secret report by the CIA's Directorate of Intelligence that was updated in January 2003, on the eve of the war.
"We could find no provable connection between Saddam and al-Qaida," a senior U.S. official acknowledged. He and others spoke on condition of anonymity because the information involved is classified and could prove embarrassing to the White House.
The administration's allegations that Saddam still had weapons of mass destruction have been the subject of much greater public and political controversy than its suggestions that Iraq and al-Qaida were in league. They were based on the Iraqi leader's long history of duplicity regarding WMD, which appeared to be confirmed by spy satellite photographs, defectors and electronic eavesdropping.
But the evidence of Iraq's ties to al-Qaida was always sketchy, based largely on testimony of Iraqi defectors and prisoners, supplemented with limited reports from foreign agents and electronic eavesdropping.
Much of the evidence that's now available indicates that Iraq and al-Qaida had no close ties, despite repeated contacts between the two; that the terrorists who administration officials claimed were links between the two had no direct connection to either Saddam or bin Laden; and that a key meeting between an Iraqi intelligence officer and one of the leaders of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks probably never happened. "
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Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
holy **** this has become an epic. I feel the need to address the 'apology' topic. I feel no need to apologize for anything I said. It's my opinion for the most part. The rest of it is fact as I know it and have seen it. In return I request no apologies from anyone. I would however like for people to think about what they say.
Comments like :
i prefer that you people that automatically assume its propaganda DONT go see it actually because you shouldnt be allowed to vote because you obviously dont have common sense (aka mental capacity) to think for yourself and be rational. just go see spiderman 2 and leave all the political stuff up to the grown-ups.
I think are BS. Everyone has a set of rights because they are an American and you gotta screw up REALLY badly to have those rights taken away. None of us, no matter how smart we think we are has the power to make those decisions, so comments like that should be left alone. Especially when it's clearly not been thought through very well.
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Sometimes I think that government fits that old-fashioned definition of a baby: An alimentary canal with an appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other.
- Ronald Reagan
Since you changed the tone of your post, I will in kind respond to put this to rest.
I will offer no apology for my posts, to anyone. None is needed.
And it is not up to me to prove my posts accurate. Heck, like I pointed out even what you posted can be debated as less than accurate and misleading… yes, even what was official statements from people who some would “think” knew what they were talking about. But I know for a fact that some of it is not accurate.
But again, I don’t have to provide any proof for what I claim. There are enough out there that know what I post is the truth.
As for Moore… if you have read as much about him as you claim, and still think everything said about him is baseless…. We are evidently reading things from alternate universes. You even posted a link to an anti-moore site (I believe… I am too busy to go and try to find it) and still claim to see no basis for doubting Moore’s work. Fine, it is clear that you don’t want to see it, not that it is not there.
I will leave you with a few tidbits to read though, and we will agree to disagree on this issue…
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Yes, I did. Some of his claims haven't proven to be true -specifically in Roger and Me, and in Bowling for Columbine, but that doesn't take away from entire message of the films. When they are false, I post those, as well.
I am certainly not always correct (I was just proven wrong re 3.8L Mustangs in the 87-93 era). Does that mean I am ALWAYS wrong?
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Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
