hehe, you are now seeing what people in San Antonio, Houston, LA, Phoenix, El Paso, and many other cities have said for years..
This problem will only be fixed when we have a physical border WALL, not a fence, and the gov't enforcing the laws on the employers.
With that said, if only we had the National Retail Sales Tax.. they'd all be tax payers then.
True. Particularly the NRST part.
But a fence CAN be a true barrier, when combined with the other elements - (sensors, lights, alarms, patrols, and de-pcing the rules our Border people work under.
All by itself, no fence (or wall) is much of a barrier to a determined attack.
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
I just got this data pulled together from the source listed, and wanted to share it here. Those who do business with Bank of America should pay particular attention.
It turns out that if you want to conduct business the the Bank of America (and what a shame it is that that particular name is owned by THAT particular bank), you will be required to give them your social security number in order to prove that you are, well, you...
Unless you speak spanish, in which case they don't REQUIRE a social security number!
Think about it, they are doing business with illegal aliens, WITHOUT a SSN! Its against the law (state, federal, and shoot, probably local) for a bank to do this. How do they get away with this?
Non-enforcement of the law.
And I hold Bush accountable for this.
Anyway, here is the backup data. I encourage everyone to hit the links and track down the facts. The first part is a skit involving B of A, which illustrates one of the problems:
Bank of America, can I help you?
Customer: Yes, I want to cancel my account. I don't want to do business with you any longer.
The Bank: Why?
Customer: You're giving credit to illegal immigrants and I don't think it's right. I'm taking my business elsewhere.
The Bank: Well, Mr. Customer, we don't want to see you do that, but we can't stop you. I'll help you close the account. What is your account number?
Customer: (gives account number)
The Bank: For security purposes and for your protection, can you please give me the last four digits of your social security number?
Customer: No?
The Bank: Mr. Customer, I need to verify your information, but in order to help you, I'll need verification of who you are.
Customer: Why should I give you my social security number? The reason I'm closing my account is that your bank is issuing credit cards to illegal immigrants who don't have social security numbers. You are targeting that audience and want their business. Let's say I'm an illegal immigrant and you've given me a credit card. I have a question about it and call for assistance. You wouldn't be asking me for a Social Security number, would you?
The Bank: No sir, I wouldn't.
Customer: Why not?
The Bank: Because you would have pressed '2' to speak in Spanish. We don't ask for that information when calling in on the Spanish line.
I hope the following 14 reasons are forwarded over and over again until they are read so many times that the reader gets sick of reading them. I have included the URL's for verification of the following facts.
1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year. http://tinyurl.com/zob77
10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html
11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroine and marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border. Homeland Security Report: http://tinyurl.com/t9sht
12. The National Policy Institute, "estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period." http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf
14. "The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States ". http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml
The total cost is a whopping
$ 338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR If this doesn't bother you then just delete the message, but on the other hand, if it does raise the hair on the back of your neck, then forward it to every human in the country including every representative in Washington, DC four times a week for a month.
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
I just got this data pulled together from the source listed, and wanted to share it here. Those who do business with Bank of America should pay particular attention.
It turns out that if you want to conduct business the the Bank of America (and what a shame it is that that particular name is owned by THAT particular bank), you will be required to give them your social security number in order to prove that you are, well, you...
Unless you speak spanish, in which case they don't REQUIRE a social security number!
Think about it, they are doing business with illegal aliens, WITHOUT a SSN! Its against the law (state, federal, and shoot, probably local) for a bank to do this. How do they get away with this?
Non-enforcement of the law.
And I hold Bush accountable for this.
Anyway, here is the backup data. I encourage everyone to hit the links and track down the facts. The first part is a skit involving B of A, which illustrates one of the problems:
Bank of America, can I help you?
Customer: Yes, I want to cancel my account. I don't want to do business with you any longer.
The Bank: Why?
Customer: You're giving credit to illegal immigrants and I don't think it's right. I'm taking my business elsewhere.
The Bank: Well, Mr. Customer, we don't want to see you do that, but we can't stop you. I'll help you close the account. What is your account number?
Customer: (gives account number)
The Bank: For security purposes and for your protection, can you please give me the last four digits of your social security number?
Customer: No?
The Bank: Mr. Customer, I need to verify your information, but in order to help you, I'll need verification of who you are.
Customer: Why should I give you my social security number? The reason I'm closing my account is that your bank is issuing credit cards to illegal immigrants who don't have social security numbers. You are targeting that audience and want their business. Let's say I'm an illegal immigrant and you've given me a credit card. I have a question about it and call for assistance. You wouldn't be asking me for a Social Security number, would you?
The Bank: No sir, I wouldn't.
Customer: Why not?
The Bank: Because you would have pressed '2' to speak in Spanish. We don't ask for that information when calling in on the Spanish line.
I hope the following 14 reasons are forwarded over and over again until they are read so many times that the reader gets sick of reading them. I have included the URL's for verification of the following facts.
1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year. http://tinyurl.com/zob77
10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html
11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroine and marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border. Homeland Security Report: http://tinyurl.com/t9sht
12. The National Policy Institute, "estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period." http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf
14. "The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States ". http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml
The total cost is a whopping
$ 338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR If this doesn't bother you then just delete the message, but on the other hand, if it does raise the hair on the back of your neck, then forward it to every human in the country including every representative in Washington, DC four times a week for a month.
hey trip, some of those costs overlap, and contradict each other . ..
regardless, the issue is clearly wage suppression, labor dumping, and corporate plantations that move costs of employment to the general public, while reaping more profits, and allow the same to occur in Mexico.
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
No ks, the real issue is they're here illegally, they are crooks by definition. They cost this country billions a year and they need to go the hell home. How anyone can even begin to defend illegal immigrants is beyond my comprehension.
__________________
Sometimes I think that government fits that old-fashioned definition of a baby: An alimentary canal with an appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other.
- Ronald Reagan
No ks, the real issue is they're here illegally, they are crooks by definition. They cost this country billions a year and they need to go the hell home. How anyone can even begin to defend illegal immigrants is beyond my comprehension.
They wouldn't be here if meat packers, developers, landscapers, etc., didn't illegally hire them.
If I were in their shoes, you betcha' I'd do whatever it took to put food on the table. But the folks hiring them -they have no reason to do so, except greed and a wanton disrespect for the American People.
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
hey trip, some of those costs overlap, and contradict each other . ..
regardless, the issue is clearly wage suppression, labor dumping, and corporate plantations that move costs of employment to the general public, while reaping more profits, and allow the same to occur in Mexico.
Yes, some of them do overlap (different sources group topics differently, for instance). The overall totals are probably about right, though some really sweeping estimates have to be done to generate costs for items like labor dumping (hats off to you again for that one), though the study that looked at the costs of "market offsets" created by illegal aliens was a good start.
The contradictions are, again, due to lack of the cohesive sources that SHOULD exist for this data (given the fact that collecting data about black market economies and criminal enterprises in general are ALLWAYS tough this is understandable).
Admittedly, this is a relatively crude set of numbers. (The talents of an information researcher and organizer such as yourself would be needed at high levels within the various organizations, not to mention government, to improve them).
The issues you list are all included in the links, but I think we can agree that they are not LIMITED to those areas. If anything, the essay is leaving out many areas where costs to our economy (and for the purposes of this discussion, I include government as a "cost" to our economy) occur as a result of illegal immigration, smuggling, outright criminal wrongdoing, etc.
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
They wouldn't be here if meat packers, developers, landscapers, etc., didn't illegally hire them.
If I were in their shoes, you betcha' I'd do whatever it took to put food on the table. But the folks hiring them -they have no reason to do so, except greed and a wanton disrespect for the American People.
The cases where large employers "pull" illegals across the borders by offering them jobs is a valid portion of the overall dilemna - and another area where existing law (if enforced) would handle it. Again, responsibility for the LACK of effective enforcement is directly attributable to the long term (even systemic) failures of leadership in Washington DC. This is currently something to nail on Congress and especially the Bush administration, though in the past similar slack effort occurred all the way back through Reagan and finally Jimmah Carter.
In my opinion, the "pull" of pre-existing jobs in large employers flaunting our law is about 25% of the problem. Now, in some states or localities, it might well be more like 75%. Without a doubt it is overall one of the most glaring problems.
Based solely upon a lot of study and the reading of some pretty heavy academic pieces, my feel is that about 25% of the problem is caused by the "push" in Mexico (and other labor dumping countries). This push is a complex set of factors, the easiest of which to identify comprises the conscious effort of these countries to empty their jails, prisons, hospitals and insane asylums across their borders and into ours. Other examples of the "push" is what happens when people are black-balled or ostracized in their home countries for past bad behavior (child molesting - sex crimes - homosexuality - political crimes, etc, etc). The United States is often these people's choice vs a tough existance among those who know far too much about them. The "push" also occurs when excess labor is "encouraged" to cross our border and find employment (any employment) that will result in floods of wire transfers back home. In Mexico, only Oil is a bigger component of their economy than these daily wire transfers, and given the huge sums of cash and retirement transfers which are ALSO sourced from the same group, I suspect Oil is actually a distant second place.
Another huge factor is the group seeking the "American Dream". I think this is a seperate draw as large as the other two, though I consider it seperate from those seeking only a paycheck. This group truly wants nothing less than to become Americans, and as such are walking in the footsteps of all those who came before and actually BUILT this country. Unfortunately, either through the breakdown in the immigration system (which is overloaded on BOTH ends of the pipeline in most cases), OR from simple impatiance, this group ends up "going illegal" in pursuit of their dream. I consider it likely that, had we kept the immigration well organized and enforced the law, the vast majority of this third large group would have found the waits within their tolerance and the results to both our liking!
The final 25% is a mishmash of special interest groups and simple "unkowns" with motives difficult to discern. The more paranoid would sift through this group and turn up some scary numbers of potential terrorists and enemies.
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
The cases where large employers "pull" illegals across the borders by offering them jobs is a valid portion of the overall dilemna - and another area where existing law (if enforced) would handle it. Again, responsibility for the LACK of effective enforcement is directly attributable to the long term (even systemic) failures of leadership in Washington DC. This is currently something to nail on Congress and especially the Bush administration, though in the past similar slack effort occurred all the way back through Reagan and finally Jimmah Carter.
In my opinion, the "pull" of pre-existing jobs in large employers flaunting our law is about 25% of the problem. Now, in some states or localities, it might well be more like 75%. Without a doubt it is overall one of the most glaring problems.
Based solely upon a lot of study and the reading of some pretty heavy academic pieces, my feel is that about 25% of the problem is caused by the "push" in Mexico (and other labor dumping countries). This push is a complex set of factors, the easiest of which to identify comprises the conscious effort of these countries to empty their jails, prisons, hospitals and insane asylums across their borders and into ours. Other examples of the "push" is what happens when people are black-balled or ostracized in their home countries for past bad behavior (child molesting - sex crimes - homosexuality - political crimes, etc, etc). The United States is often these people's choice vs a tough existance among those who know far too much about them. The "push" also occurs when excess labor is "encouraged" to cross our border and find employment (any employment) that will result in floods of wire transfers back home. In Mexico, only Oil is a bigger component of their economy than these daily wire transfers, and given the huge sums of cash and retirement transfers which are ALSO sourced from the same group, I suspect Oil is actually a distant second place.
Another huge factor is the group seeking the "American Dream". I think this is a seperate draw as large as the other two, though I consider it seperate from those seeking only a paycheck. This group truly wants nothing less than to become Americans, and as such are walking in the footsteps of all those who came before and actually BUILT this country. Unfortunately, either through the breakdown in the immigration system (which is overloaded on BOTH ends of the pipeline in most cases), OR from simple impatiance, this group ends up "going illegal" in pursuit of their dream. I consider it likely that, had we kept the immigration well organized and enforced the law, the vast majority of this third large group would have found the waits within their tolerance and the results to both our liking!
The final 25% is a mishmash of special interest groups and simple "unkowns" with motives difficult to discern. The more paranoid would sift through this group and turn up some scary numbers of potential terrorists and enemies.
You'd be surprised how much of it is Pull, from the furniture/carpet factories in NC, to meat packing plants in the midwest, to ag interests in wine country, there's a lot of coordination going on.
BEFORE the fence, they would go back home when the growing season was over (I first discovered this when working on a housing study in Nampa, ID for the federal gov't . ..
AFTER the fence they are so afraid of not being able to come back, they instead paid to bring the rest of their families here. Unfortunately, then the cities had to cope with seasonal workers/families when the produce was out of season . .. so they started fanning out, looking for more stable work.
Most readily available was lanscaping/homebuilding -then meatpacking, & from meatpacking to other manufacturing industries. They generally got SSNs from the factories who told them how to go about getting them.
___________________________________________
On a side note, it appears my SSN was used for a time - Noticed some bills where I've never heard of, much less visited. On the bonus side, my SS benefits may have been boosted by two incomes . . . A federal study (by the Bush Administration, no less) found that they're keeping soc. sec. afloat (although I highly doubt this, as their incomes generally aren't very high, there are too few of them to float the entire system, and the costs of keeping credit free from fraud probably outweigh any income put into the system, but c'est la vie).
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
The migrant farm worker category should be considered "legal" immigration - there is Federal law covering this sort of work, and indeed, the idea is that they go home after the crop is in. Its premature to speak of "before the fence was built", since it is less than 1% complete right now, and the rules that will be put in place along with the barriers and sensors is still very much in flux. It is also clear that the entire Federal government, regardless of ideology regarding immigration, is determined to protect migrant farm workers. (I don't have a problem with this group either, except for the lack of control at the border).
The most logical suggestion (and simplest) has the farmer who employs these folks work with agents of the INS, documenting his people (including fingerprints, etc.). In this way, they would easily find their way across the border, with a simple calendar system (ie, they would be able to cross going north at a certain time of year, and able to go back home in the same fashion, with a comfort zone on either side of the usual dates). Hiring new laborers would require a procedure of application and certification of identity. Its a lot more bother than the old "show up and work" philosophy, but necessary.
There is indeed a "pull" for immigration, but LEGAL immigration. Its part of the immigration problem, but not the illegal immigration problem (other than the usual challenges in exercising controls in general).
Its interesting, but BOTH sides of the debate bring up migrant farm workers when they talk about illegal aliens. Those who are essentially looking to block ALL immigrants who don't seek permission to become citizens want to lump migrant farm workers into the great mass of illegals, while those who want open, porous borders with lax enforcement hide THEIR agendas behind the suppossed plight of the hard working crop pickers! Both groups, of course, do them a disservice.
The study I saw from the unions involved in this labor put the total number of migrant farm laborers at about 300,000 workers, heavily concentrated in agricultural areas in California, Arizona, Texas and New Mexico. A much smaller minority also spreads out across the west and midwest, but in much smaller numbers. Given that the total illegal alien problem is sitting somewhere between 12 and 20 million persons, even if you lump all migrant farm workers into the "illegal" category (which I disagree with), it is a tiny portion of the whole.
The concept of "migrant" workers exiting Mexico to come north and build houses, or work for landscapers, is a seperate problem - and one that rightly belongs with the illegals. For one thing, my own observations are that these are NOT true migrants - they come north and stay - often importing other family members and establishing anchor babies. Most building trade jobs are regular, year round jobs - and we are already seeing the effects of the influx of labor that will work for a fraction of what was once the going wage. Construction jobs in particular have been co-opted throughout the South, and NOT by workers showing up for a few months, and then vanishing back across the border. When you speak of labor dumping, I think of the great disparity between the price quoted for construction work (which has not gone down, of course) and the wages paid by the contractor (which are less than half what they were a few years ago). These contractors and sub-contractors are commiting crimes - and are notorious for abusing their labor (and of course breaking any number of labor laws, tax regulations, and building standards).
Most of these new illegal workers that I see came north WITH some basic (though invariably less complete than the skilled trandesmen they displace) skill set for doing things like masonry and carpentry. They are not ex-crop pickers looking for unskilled work to tide them over until the lettuce crop comes in - they are the core of the illegal problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kscoyote
You'd be surprised how much of it is Pull, from the furniture/carpet factories in NC, to meat packing plants in the midwest, to ag interests in wine country, there's a lot of coordination going on.
BEFORE the fence, they would go back home when the growing season was over (I first discovered this when working on a housing study in Nampa, ID for the federal gov't . ..
AFTER the fence they are so afraid of not being able to come back, they instead paid to bring the rest of their families here. Unfortunately, then the cities had to cope with seasonal workers/families when the produce was out of season . .. so they started fanning out, looking for more stable work.
Most readily available was lanscaping/homebuilding -then meatpacking, & from meatpacking to other manufacturing industries. They generally got SSNs from the factories who told them how to go about getting them.
___________________________________________
On a side note, it appears my SSN was used for a time - Noticed some bills where I've never heard of, much less visited. On the bonus side, my SS benefits may have been boosted by two incomes . . . A federal study (by the Bush Administration, no less) found that they're keeping soc. sec. afloat (although I highly doubt this, as their incomes generally aren't very high, there are too few of them to float the entire system, and the costs of keeping credit free from fraud probably outweigh any income put into the system, but c'est la vie).
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
On a side note, it appears my SSN was used for a time - Noticed some bills where I've never heard of, much less visited. On the bonus side, my SS benefits may have been boosted by two incomes . . . A federal study (by the Bush Administration, no less) found that they're keeping soc. sec. afloat (although I highly doubt this, as their incomes generally aren't very high, there are too few of them to float the entire system, and the costs of keeping credit free from fraud probably outweigh any income put into the system, but c'est la vie).
I have a theory that the Feds are using the Mexican illegals like the Germans did with the Turks for nearly 40 years. The idea was that the Turks would pay into the system, and get booted back to Turkey when they got old. This worked for a while, and the Germans put in some very generous social programs with the extra money...
Then they elected a new government that seemed to have forgotten about the plan. Pretty soon the Turks started retiring and staying in Germany, and the ratio of workers paying into the plan went way down, while the ratio of retirees went way up (sound familiar?).
Germany is running some VERY serious deficits in all their social spending budgets, and the same thing is happening in France (they recently had to step back from their nationally mandated 32 hour work week because of this). Sweden has just the faintest hint of an immigrant problem, but even so they are retreating from many of their own very generous social support programs as well. In the UK and Italy, immigrant support costs are the "secret" data no one talks about - but everyone worries about, while of course France's muslim/african imports are roaming the countryside burning the place down one cafe and automobile at a time.
If this sort of insanity IS the idea behind our Federal government's numbingly stupid handling of immigration in general, and illegal immigration from latin america in particular, we can only hope that SOMEONE is paying attention to the ramifications showing up over in Europe.
Germany and France were able to gain a bit of breathing space with their problems by conning the rest of the European Union into switching to the Euro. Had this not happened when it did, both countries were faced with some very fierce currency devaluations as a result of the huge drain on their treasuries. Even so, this just delayed the inevitable, as now ALL of Europe (less the UK, who was smart enough to retain their Pound) shares their problems.
When the time comes, I really doubt that Canada and Mexico (re. the fantasy of the "dollero" story popping up a month ago) will jump on the same sinking ship.
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
The migrant farm worker category should be considered "legal" immigration - there is Federal law covering this sort of work, and indeed, the idea is that they go home after the crop is in. Its premature to speak of "before the fence was built", since it is less than 1% complete right now, and the rules that will be put in place along with the barriers and sensors is still very much in flux. It is also clear that the entire Federal government, regardless of ideology regarding immigration, is determined to protect migrant farm workers. (I don't have a problem with this group either, except for the lack of control at the border).
The most logical suggestion (and simplest) has the farmer who employs these folks work with agents of the INS, documenting his people (including fingerprints, etc.). In this way, they would easily find their way across the border, with a simple calendar system (ie, they would be able to cross going north at a certain time of year, and able to go back home in the same fashion, with a comfort zone on either side of the usual dates). Hiring new laborers would require a procedure of application and certification of identity. Its a lot more bother than the old "show up and work" philosophy, but necessary.
There is indeed a "pull" for immigration, but LEGAL immigration. Its part of the immigration problem, but not the illegal immigration problem (other than the usual challenges in exercising controls in general).
Its interesting, but BOTH sides of the debate bring up migrant farm workers when they talk about illegal aliens. Those who are essentially looking to block ALL immigrants who don't seek permission to become citizens want to lump migrant farm workers into the great mass of illegals, while those who want open, porous borders with lax enforcement hide THEIR agendas behind the suppossed plight of the hard working crop pickers! Both groups, of course, do them a disservice.
The study I saw from the unions involved in this labor put the total number of migrant farm laborers at about 300,000 workers, heavily concentrated in agricultural areas in California, Arizona, Texas and New Mexico. A much smaller minority also spreads out across the west and midwest, but in much smaller numbers. Given that the total illegal alien problem is sitting somewhere between 12 and 20 million persons, even if you lump all migrant farm workers into the "illegal" category (which I disagree with), it is a tiny portion of the whole.
The concept of "migrant" workers exiting Mexico to come north and build houses, or work for landscapers, is a seperate problem - and one that rightly belongs with the illegals. For one thing, my own observations are that these are NOT true migrants - they come north and stay - often importing other family members and establishing anchor babies. Most building trade jobs are regular, year round jobs - and we are already seeing the effects of the influx of labor that will work for a fraction of what was once the going wage. Construction jobs in particular have been co-opted throughout the South, and NOT by workers showing up for a few months, and then vanishing back across the border. When you speak of labor dumping, I think of the great disparity between the price quoted for construction work (which has not gone down, of course) and the wages paid by the contractor (which are less than half what they were a few years ago). These contractors and sub-contractors are commiting crimes - and are notorious for abusing their labor (and of course breaking any number of labor laws, tax regulations, and building standards).
Most of these new illegal workers that I see came north WITH some basic (though invariably less complete than the skilled trandesmen they displace) skill set for doing things like masonry and carpentry. They are not ex-crop pickers looking for unskilled work to tide them over until the lettuce crop comes in - they are the core of the illegal problem.
Trip, they started building a fence outside San Diego when I lived there - the migrants started going through Arizona afterwards. That's where all the deaths generally occur now, and why it's so hazardous now, as compared to pre-california fence.
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
I have a theory that the Feds are using the Mexican illegals like the Germans did with the Turks for nearly 40 years. The idea was that the Turks would pay into the system, and get booted back to Turkey when they got old. This worked for a while, and the Germans put in some very generous social programs with the extra money...
Then they elected a new government that seemed to have forgotten about the plan. Pretty soon the Turks started retiring and staying in Germany, and the ratio of workers paying into the plan went way down, while the ratio of retirees went way up (sound familiar?).
Germany is running some VERY serious deficits in all their social spending budgets, and the same thing is happening in France (they recently had to step back from their nationally mandated 32 hour work week because of this). Sweden has just the faintest hint of an immigrant problem, but even so they are retreating from many of their own very generous social support programs as well. In the UK and Italy, immigrant support costs are the "secret" data no one talks about - but everyone worries about, while of course France's muslim/african imports are roaming the countryside burning the place down one cafe and automobile at a time.
If this sort of insanity IS the idea behind our Federal government's numbingly stupid handling of immigration in general, and illegal immigration from latin america in particular, we can only hope that SOMEONE is paying attention to the ramifications showing up over in Europe.
Germany and France were able to gain a bit of breathing space with their problems by conning the rest of the European Union into switching to the Euro. Had this not happened when it did, both countries were faced with some very fierce currency devaluations as a result of the huge drain on their treasuries. Even so, this just delayed the inevitable, as now ALL of Europe (less the UK, who was smart enough to retain their Pound) shares their problems.
When the time comes, I really doubt that Canada and Mexico (re. the fantasy of the "dollero" story popping up a month ago) will jump on the same sinking ship.
yeah, there are some comparisons to be made . ..
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Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
Trip, they started building a fence outside San Diego when I lived there - the migrants started going through Arizona afterwards. That's where all the deaths generally occur now, and why it's so hazardous now, as compared to pre-california fence.
I was aware that short stretches of fence were built long ago - and indeed, just re-routed the illegals into other areas. The study I read looked at this, and found a direct correlation between the first fence built in San Diego and a big increase in New Mexico, about 100 miles east. The border patrol interdiction records showed an almost identical increase in New Mexico compared to the decrease the local agents documented in San Diego.
Over the years they have also tried intensifying their coverage in locations where the crossings were particularly numerous, only to find that the opposition quickly adapted, instantly moving their crossing points to compensate.
As for the hazards of crossing in the hard desert areas, this is certainly one of the human costs of the problem. The concept is that there will ultimately be NOWHERE to cross without interdiction - solving the sad reality that sneaking across the desert with nothing more than a bottle of water is liable to get you killed, and also suppressing the massive dumping of human bodies (pulled or pushed) across the border.
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tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
You know what, if someone dies in the commission of a crime, I have absolutely no sympathy for them. They should have come here legally. Build the fences, reassign the agents...make a hard desert crossing the preferred way to get here. Once that has happened, start running desert raids run them all over the desert. I'm beyond pissed off about this issue and it needs to come to a screeching halt.
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Sometimes I think that government fits that old-fashioned definition of a baby: An alimentary canal with an appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other.
- Ronald Reagan
Wall 
