When I say space I mean a total vacuum with no matter whatsoever, which is what the universe is expanding in, that is why space is boundless, but outer space is not boundless, it starts with the big bang and is expanding outward in, what was their before the big bang, nothingness.
Exactly. That void is what I am calling 'The Outside' as in outside everything - outside the universe, outside matter, outside time. That is why I say that if someone managed to travel there, the section of former 'nothingness' they occupied would no longer be 'nothingness' - no longer be a total void - no longer be 'Outside' because, since there would then be matter occupying it (the person and their spacecraft, equipment, etc.) it no longer contains utter nothingness but, instead, contains physical, measurable, quantifiable matter. 'The Outside' would then be the infinite area beyond the area such an individual and their vessel occupied rather than the area beyond the universe.
Do you think that this 'Outside' is infinite - unmeasurable and unquantifiable - or does it have a terminal point? Is it globular in shape, as most of the universe seems to tend toward, or does it have no boundaries and, therefore, no shape? Could black holes simply be spaces of the 'Outside' that have breeched the boundaries of our universe - spaces where the universe failed to completely fill the void? If so, where does the matter sucked in by those black holes go? Is it being stored up somewhere, torn asunder and spread throughout the void, to rejoin all the other matter in the universe in the next shrinking phase moving toward the next Big Bang or is it all being slammed together, somewhere out there in the nothingness, waiting to be compacted to the point that it will experience its own Big Bang and create a seperate universe, quite apart from our own? If so, does each and every black hole represent a potential new universe or is all the matter from all black holes drawn together into one potential new universe? Further, does the matter that enters black holes ever leave (as in Stephen Hawkings' theory of white holes and curved space) or does it stay there, inside the black hole, until it reaches a mass great enough to counter the gravitational pull of the black hole and explodes, creating a universe within the black hole itself, sort of a mini universe within our universe. Could our own universe simply be such a mini-universe? Could what we are discussing as being the 'Outside' or the void simply be the inside of a black hole in a much larger universe? If so, and if we could escape not only the bounds of our universe but also the bounds of that black hole - that nothingness - and break into the larger universe beyond, what would we find?
Sorry - you guys have gotten the old synapses firing and I'm having trouble turning them off so I guess I'm just kind of brainstorming. This really is great fun! I just wish I had the mathematical skills to turn all of my ideas into scientifically workable theories. Sadly, I do not.
I love discussions like this because, as Kyle said, there is no clear right or wrong and no reason to get angry and argue - just an opportunity to excercise our minds and really think about things that go far beyond ourselves and our own existences.
But there is a clear and absolute right, and it is well within our grasp. I'm using 'our' tightly, not 'our' as in a bunch of bulletin board posters/posers thinking we know something so it's fact, I'm talking 'our' as in top physicists.
We have many people out there that were educated in the 60's, 70's, and 80's that will still argue that electrons orbit atoms in precise orbitals like planets around a sun. We have people out there who do not realize matter is not a constant, and may or may not occupy any given space at any given moment in time.
The absence of anything physical to see, touch, feel or measure doesn't describe 'nothingness' or lack of time. It describes a vacuum, which is what space is for the most part. Time doesn't stop in a vacuum, if you toss a clock out of the space shuttle into space, it will still keep ticking (of course only if it's the wind up non-electric style). So if you still have time, then you still have something, and the presence of something completely negates the whole theory.
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Sometimes I think that government fits that old-fashioned definition of a baby: An alimentary canal with an appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other.
- Ronald Reagan
The absence of anything physical to see, touch, feel or measure doesn't describe 'nothingness' or lack of time. It describes a vacuum, which is what space is for the most part. Time doesn't stop in a vacuum, if you toss a clock out of the space shuttle into space, it will still keep ticking (of course only if it's the wind up non-electric style). So if you still have time, then you still have something, and the presence of something completely negates the whole theory.
But that clock is measuring our arbitrary system we call 'time' not absolute, universal 'real' time. If the clock's mechanism is slow, does that mean that real time slows down? If it is fast, does that mean real time speeds up? When the clock runs completely down, does time - real time - stop? What I am saying is that the clock - and our manmade idea of 'time' (as in hours, minutes, seconds) doesn't matter to the universe. What matters to the universe is movement of celestial bodies relative to other celestial bodies - that is, to me, the way to measure real time. If, outside our physical universe, there are no such bodies to move or act relative to other bodies, then there is no real time, IMO.
But there is a clear and absolute right, and it is well within our grasp. I'm using 'our' tightly, not 'our' as in a bunch of bulletin board posters/posers thinking we know something so it's fact, I'm talking 'our' as in top physicists.
Not to be a jerk, but until some of those physicist travel beyond the universe and see what is - or isn't - there, I don't think they can claim to 'know' what is there any more than we posters/posers have. Sure, they have more relative knowledge to form more solid theories, but until someone can go there and prove those theories to be fact, they are - and will remain - theories.
So, Saleen Owner, give us your theory? What do you think?
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and waddles like a duck, does that necessarily mean it's a duck?
Just because we "can't" measure the universe doesn't mean it doesn't have limits. I'm not saying that it does, I've never been to the absolute edge to check. Let me know when someone gets there, I'll send them a postcard.
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1976 Ford Mustang II Ghia: 302 with a 600cfm Edelbrock carb, Edelbrock Performer 289 intake, Dynomax Blackjack headers, 2.5" exhaust with Flowmaster Super 44s. RJS 11-gallon fuel cell, C4 tranny, chrome 16" pony wheels, fuzzy dice, brown vinyl half-top, and painted in the tackiest color ever (harvest gold, that's why I call it "The Goldenrod").
Also have a 2003 Dodge Ram (lightly modded daily driver/tow rig/office/dining room/home away from home/workshop... I call it "The Big Blue Dawg".)
Okay, I've heard that it's possible for there to be a situation where NO time or space exists. Physicists spout this theory, but I don't believe them.
It's like the proverbial tree falling down in the forest - just because nobody hears it, does not mean that it made no noise.
I say that just the fact of us being here in this universe with our clocks and tape measurers, negates that theory. I don't believe that there is a situation which could escape being quantified by our space and time.
Me: "Well if there's no space there, then what is in that spot?"
Them: "Nothing."
I can't conceive nothing being anything but empty SPACE!
Prove me wrong...
If you were to shrink to the size of an atom, your body would appear as a gaseous cloud in a void of nothingness.
what keeps you from passing through "matter" is an electrical charge, the atoms repel each other.
mass=energy, and energy cannot be destroyed or created (at least in this dimension) so on an atomic scale there is only energy.
That's the most simple way of putting it.
To describe quantum mechanics requires more than a few years of study or more than a few 1000+ page tomes.
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Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
If you were to shrink to the size of an atom, your body would appear as a gaseous cloud in a void of nothingness.
what keeps you from passing through "matter" is an electrical charge, the atoms repel each other.
mass=energy, and energy cannot be destroyed or created (at least in this dimension) so on an atomic scale there is only energy.
That's the most simple way of putting it.
To describe quantum mechanics requires more than a few years of study or more than a few 1000+ page tomes.
exactly again I don’t have my reference material so I am really just guessing in the ballpark but I remember they said if the nucleus of an atom was one inch in diameter then the electrons floting around it would be like (this is my guess because I cant remember what the actually size was) 20 miles out around it.
So in essence nothing in this reality is solid, even steel is made 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999% out of air.
Wow let that sink in for a moment.
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So , let me get this straight…..your Honda has 1.6 liters, whereas my bottle of Mountain Dew has 2?
Change…..it’s what is left after taxes.
- Shaken....Not Stirred 2003 Mach I Auto Torch Red - Sold
-1988 Ford Mustang GT Convertible, 331 Trick Flow Stroker with a Tremec 3550....oh yea and a 1.6 liter V-TECH motor to work the convertible top.
- 1966 Inline 6……..the pile of parts car!
I love discussions like this because, as Kyle said, there is no clear right or wrong and no reason to get angry and argue - just an opportunity to excercise our minds and really think about things that go far beyond ourselves and our own existences.
you should know but now we will find something to argue about, in fact I’m looking something up to shoot down the multiple big bang theory, I know there is evidence against it but have to find it…….
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So , let me get this straight…..your Honda has 1.6 liters, whereas my bottle of Mountain Dew has 2?
Change…..it’s what is left after taxes.
- Shaken....Not Stirred 2003 Mach I Auto Torch Red - Sold
-1988 Ford Mustang GT Convertible, 331 Trick Flow Stroker with a Tremec 3550....oh yea and a 1.6 liter V-TECH motor to work the convertible top.
- 1966 Inline 6……..the pile of parts car!
The absence of anything physical to see, touch, feel or measure doesn't describe 'nothingness' or lack of time. It describes a vacuum, which is what space is for the most part. Time doesn't stop in a vacuum, if you toss a clock out of the space shuttle into space, it will still keep ticking (of course only if it's the wind up non-electric style). So if you still have time, then you still have something, and the presence of something completely negates the whole theory.
you’ll have to look at our post on space, outer space and vacuum because it makes a difference.
Time did not accrue before the big band, it only is relative to the universe at the big bang and beyond, in space (the true nothingness) then it has no relativity, no hold no function.
I’m going to have to get my reference books back this is really firing me up……….cant remember enough to explain it coherently.
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So , let me get this straight…..your Honda has 1.6 liters, whereas my bottle of Mountain Dew has 2?
Change…..it’s what is left after taxes.
- Shaken....Not Stirred 2003 Mach I Auto Torch Red - Sold
-1988 Ford Mustang GT Convertible, 331 Trick Flow Stroker with a Tremec 3550....oh yea and a 1.6 liter V-TECH motor to work the convertible top.
- 1966 Inline 6……..the pile of parts car!
Time is a dimension, before the big bang, time and matter did not exist, therefore this it did exist and probably still exist, and it’s just outside our comprehension.
I once read a very good explanation of opining the mind to think outside the box of and gave an example of what another dimension could be, but the book is on loan, as soon as I get it back I will try to add it.
To describe quantum mechanics requires more than a few years of study or more than a few 1000+ page tomes.
Pretty much sums up my opinion on the subject. I can pose and propose all I want and take up thousands of pages of server space and never amount to anything. Without a vast knowledge of physics and mathematics, of which I do not have, I'm not adding anything at all.
Here's something to think about, when God spoke (for those of us who do believe) let there be light, at that instant He created Time, heigth, width and lenght. The space that we occupy came into existance. Before that there was nothing and I mean nothing, not empty space but no space at all. What's beyond the outer reaches of creation? It's either nothing as in an absence of everything including space or...God.
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1966 Fastback
1997 V6 Mustang
1998 GT
"Government is not the answer to our problems, government is the problem."
I Hate GM, deal with it.
One shot, One Kill! Don't waste ammo, it's pricey!
2005 GT Screaming Yellow: SLP Loudmouths
Ibanez guitars, S&W revolvers, Glock Semi's
Republican write in Presidential Candidate 2012
But that clock is measuring our arbitrary system we call 'time' not absolute, universal 'real' time. If the clock's mechanism is slow, does that mean that real time slows down? If it is fast, does that mean real time speeds up? When the clock runs completely down, does time - real time - stop? What I am saying is that the clock - and our manmade idea of 'time' (as in hours, minutes, seconds) doesn't matter to the universe. What matters to the universe is movement of celestial bodies relative to other celestial bodies - that is, to me, the way to measure real time. If, outside our physical universe, there are no such bodies to move or act relative to other bodies, then there is no real time, IMO.
If this is true, Superman's way of going back in time would be accurate. If you could go fast enough to arrive at a place before you left and all....
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I Hate GM, deal with it.
One shot, One Kill! Don't waste ammo, it's pricey!
2005 GT Screaming Yellow: SLP Loudmouths
Ibanez guitars, S&W revolvers, Glock Semi's
Republican write in Presidential Candidate 2012
