[meangreen92]

Okay, I've heard that it's possible for there to be a situation where NO time or space exists. Physicists spout this theory, but I don't believe them.
It's like the proverbial tree falling down in the forest - just because nobody hears it, does not mean that it made no noise.
I say that just the fact of us being here in this universe with our clocks and tape measurers, negates that theory. I don't believe that there is a situation which could escape being quantified by our space and time.
Me: "Well if there's no space there, then what is in that spot?"
Them: "Nothing."
I can't conceive nothing being anything but empty SPACE!
Prove me wrong...

[BlueStreak03]

I can't prove you wrong because I agree. I think I've heard that theory before, but didn't buy into it then and still don't.

Here's a nugget of info to wrap your brain around. All the matter in the entire universe was once packed into a volume about the size of a thimble.

[pcfrisch]

I don't buy it, so if someone entered this area of "nothingness" theoretically they would not age because there is no time?
Are these scientists on crack?

[shinerstang]

Anybody ever see an interview with Paris Hilton or Pamela Anderson????

So where does Quantum Physics play into this theory? If we measured time, wouldn't there be a space that would not?

[countymounty]

Time is a dimension, before the big bang, time and matter did not exist, therefore this it did exist and probably still exist, and it’s just outside our comprehension.
I once read a very good explanation of opining the mind to think outside the box of and gave an example of what another dimension could be, but the book is on loan, as soon as I get it back I will try to add it.

[meangreen92]

But if there were no space, how could our universe possibly expand?

[JB02GT]

Originally Posted by meangreen92

But if there were no space, how could our universe possibly expand?

See, I think you hit the 'no time or space' region right on the head. I think the area that our universe is expanding into is an area that is the absence of time or space. No planets, no stars, no matter or anti-matter, no physical bodies to measure distance between, therefore, no 'space'. Also, no planets rotating around stars, no galaxies spinning in space, no way to measure passage of minutes, hours or days - therefore, no 'time', either, just nothingness, a void. Of course, I'm no physicist, but that is just what I have always imagined. I've often wondered what it would be like if a human being could board a spaceship that would be fast enough to take them outside the Universe into that region. I actually got an idea for a short story years ago (a story that has had many starts and stops but no completion, yet) about that very thing.

[meangreen92]

Originally Posted by JB02GT

I've often wondered what it would be like if a human being could board a spaceship that would be fast enough to take them outside the Universe into that region.

Would your watch still run? Wouldn't you still be 6 feet tall?

[countymounty]

With the absence of matter what is space? Nothing. So if our universe is continually expanding what is it continually expanding in? Space. Nothing, can we measure nothing? Does nothing have limitations? Does nothing have boundaries?

I say no but we are trapped in our limited ability to observe only 4 dimensions.
Length
Width
Depth
Time

Minds much greater then I say they believe there may be as many as 14 dimensions, but this is way over my head, I have a very basic understanding and it makes since but my knowledge is so limited as not being able to attempt to explain it without screwing it up. This doesn’t mean anyone is right the whole idea is pure theory and could be pure science fiction but there are certain facts that lead a reasonable person to believe there is much more to this then what our knowledge of the universe will ever be able to explain.

Much of this research has led to string theory and quark theory and this leads to whole other legions of questions.

[Kyle F]

I think this theory proves there is no limit to what we can imagine, but at that point we can not prove or disprove each other wrong. So, an inteligent person with pursuasive skills can present any off the wall theory and get credit for it and have others analyze it whithout there being much substance to it other than a crazy thought.

I for one don't believe in big bang. Studied way to much science and math to believe that one day "BANG" and all of this just fell into place with no real intelegent design behind it.

As for what our universe is expanding into... it has to be an empyt space. A box is still a box even if you haven't put anything into it... correct. Our galaxy is the same way, our problem is we don't know if there is a wall (or box side) out there to stop it or just how big space really is. Will we just expnad an merge violently with other galaxies? We will probably never find out in our lifetimes.

How can there be somethign that exist without time and space? If its not occupying anything... is it really there? Time is relative... its somethign we have estpablished, quatified, put values to, measure and name. Is this really an universla property? I think so, because whatever this place is we can measure how long its been there or hasn't depending on the view of No Space No Time, in Earth time.

The one that gets me is time is not constant. Which, is what I am getting at with the whole time belongs to us above and is not a univerasal property because we can create time differences in our own atmosphere by traveling in a plane at supersonic speeds with a clock syncronised to a clock on the ground and upon landing find that less time passed in the plane that on the ground. So, obviously our "Time" is not universla, but something we use to measure something occuring infrotn of us... say in "Real" Time.

So Possibly this no space no time is a Black Hole that is void of matter because the gravity is so strong that it breaks it down to nothing voiding the space, but its moving at a speed that in effect removes a time measure as we know it. Wow, this is making me think of the Langoleers(sp?). This is the only way I can concieve this theory, but I still think its hogwash.

[JB02GT]

Originally Posted by meangreen92

Would your watch still run? Wouldn't you still be 6 feet tall?

See, I believe that there is a difference between 'real' time as measured by the movement of planetary bodies on their axis and in their orbit and 'imaginary' time - an arbitrary system, created by humans for our benefit and measured solely on the face of a clock without any solid basis. Think of it - there could as easily be 100 seconds in a minute and 100 minutes in an hour with fewer hours in a 'day' as there could be 60 seconds, 60 minutes and 24 hours. In fact, measuring by 100 seconds and 100 minutes might just make more sense. Therefore, our human system for measuring time is an arbitrary system for measuring a real phenomenon. Day and night and the passage of 'seasons' are real time caused by our planet's rotation and orbit. 1:00 pm, for instance, is an imaginary measure of smaller increments of 'real' time.

As far as being six feet tall, once you have put a person into 'the outside', is the space they now occupy still a void? No, because it now contains matter - their body and whatever spacecraft they occupy. Therefore, the state of 'nothingness' no longer exists in the space that matter occupies - and as this particular 'space' is no longer nothingness, there are quantifiable measures (distance from head to toe, distance from nose to tail of craft, etc.) Also, there are now points by which to measure the distance between this person/vessel and the outer boundaries of our expanding universe, so that it could be argued that this 'space between' is no longer, truly, a void. Instead, that person and their craft are now a 'universe' to themselves. Let there be light.

[JB02GT]

Originally Posted by Kyle F

As for what our universe is expanding into... it has to be an empyt space. A box is still a box even if you haven't put anything into it... correct. Our galaxy is the same way, our problem is we don't know if there is a wall (or box side) out there to stop it or just how big space really is. Will we just expnad an merge violently with other galaxies? We will probably never find out in our lifetimes.

But unlike our galaxy, which is measurable space surrounded by other galaxies containing measurable space with measurable space between them, etc. we have no evidence that our universe is surrounded by other universes (unless we get into theories of alternate dimensions or universes existing outside our own - the multiverse, as it were.) Also, unlike an empty box, the space our universe is expanding into may not have a wall (or box side) but may go on into infinity. If something is infinite, there is no real way to measure or quantify it, correct? I don't think of 'infinity' as a measurement, per se, so much as a representation of the unmeasurable.

I do believe in a variation of the Big Bang, but I don't think it is truly an 'original' point in real or universal 'time'. See, we are pretty sure that our universe is expanding, right? There pretty much has to be an original force that is pushing the universe into expansion, right? Something like a huge explosion - a nuclear explosion on a universal level? What happens when the force from that theoretical explosion runs out? Gravitational forces would begin to pull the physical matter of the universe back to the 'center'. The more matter that reaches the center, the more potential gravitational pull. So what happens when the matter on the outer edges of the universe begins to hit this center with all the gravitational force of the entire universe? Compaction at the nuclear level and (theoretically) another explosion - starting the process all over again. Our universe could be the first manifestation of this process or the ten billionth. In many ways, it really doesn't matter which, except as potential evidence that the process does, indeed, exist. As for a logical design, who says that there isn't some greater intelligence that set all this in motion in the first place, with such intelligence, power and precision - far beyond our comprehension - that it keeps working over and over, not only forever but beyond the other side of forever?

[JB02GT]

I love discussions like this because, as Kyle said, there is no clear right or wrong and no reason to get angry and argue - just an opportunity to excercise our minds and really think about things that go far beyond ourselves and our own existences.

[JB02GT]

Oh, I just thought of something:

If Kyle is right and the area into which our universe is expanding is like an empty 'box', then what is outside the box? An even greater 'outside' that is even more nothing than nothing?

[countymounty]

A few points……

“Space” is in outer space is not void there is mater no matter how few “parts per billion” in measurements but there is still mater in outer space that we see as nothingness because the mater is smaller then we can visible see. When I say space I mean a total vacuum with no matter whatsoever, which is what the universe is expanding in, that is why space is boundless, but outer space is not boundless, it starts with the big bang and is expanding outward in, what was their before the big bang, nothingness.

The big bang has been accepted to have happed buy the greatest scientist the human race has ever known. There is abundant evidence to prove it. Einstein developed it and said his greatest mistake was not accepting his own theory, he was stuck and could not give up what he was taught, I believe it was the steady state theory, all matter that ever was always here and their was no beginning, it has always been. Einstein developed the Theory of Relativity, which is now considered by many to be the Law of Relativity but himself shelved the idea for a long time before he finally excepted it for what it was.
The famous E+Mc2 has been proven fact in labs, time is relative, been proven over and over, the Hubble Space Telescope has images of what the universe looked like shortly after the big bang, and Cosmic background radiation is further proof.

Some things are theories that have absolutely no scientific evidence to back them like what I believe the call the imploding universe theory, the that the big bang happens then the expands then retracts back to the size of a dot and the big bang happens all over again.

But there is tons of scientific evidence that supports the big bang.

Time is relative but not as some are thinking of it. Time can be speed up, it can be slowed down it can be stopped (the last may still be theory something about the event horizon of a black hole being ably to see everything that ever passed through it) but gravity effects time, but its not a trick of measurement it is time. the time it takes for a clock to tick a second or the actual time it takes for your heart to beat is changed, not the way time is measure but the actually time.

They say its relative because it is relative to your positioning the galaxy. The ticks of a clock or the beats of your heart are not the same on Jupiter as they would be on Earth. Their may be the same number of ticks or beats but the time it takes for the ticks and beats is different. If I remember the difference between Jupiter and Earth is very small, other places seconds turn to days…….

Wish I had not loaned several books out with a little refresher I might be able to explain it better.