[pcfrisch]

I am sure the Dems will pass this with flying colors, nothing like giving away money they we have put into the system for years.


An agreement the Bush administration reached with Mexico on Social Security benefits would allow illegal aliens granted amnesty in the future to claim credit for the time they worked illegally.
The deal was reached in 2004 but never released publicly because it hasn't been submitted to Congress. The TREA Senior Citizens League, a Social Security advocacy group, recently obtained the document through a Freedom of Information Act, and said it confirms the group's worst fears.
The document is a jumble of definitions and legal language, but a spokesman for the group said what's important is what's not in the text: It does nothing to prevent undocumented aliens who later get legal status from receiving benefits for the time they worked illegally. And that comes as the Social Security system's finances are about to be put under greater strain by the retirement of baby boomers.
Totalization agreements end double taxation, so workers have to pay only into one country's system, and allow a worker who didn't have enough credits in any one country to qualify for benefits to pool his or her credits. In the United States, it takes 10 years, or 40 quarters, to qualify.
Mr. Lassiter said that's not to say Mexican workers who spent less time, such as the six quarters minimum needed to pool credits, would get benefits equal to someone who had worked his or her full life here.
Social Security for illegal aliens*-*Nation/Politics*-*The Washington Times, America's Newspaper

[shartley]

I have no problems with someone getting social security “credit” and benefits for the time they worked in the US legally. But I do have a problem with giving them credit for the time they spent working here illegally. I think what too many people (to include politicians) are forgetting is that the word ILLEGAL means “against the law”.

No matter how much the PC crowd wants to play the name game (i.e. “undocumented worker”) the people are still ILLEGAL workers.

And on that note… undocumented worker? I was born in the US, served my country as a soldier and as a police officer, and I could not get a single job without documentation. I had to prove who I was, and prove I was able to work in the country of my BIRTH legally. It just puts a bur in my saddle to see people who are clearly not here legally get jobs.

I say punish those employers who hire illegal workers. And do it in such a way that it makes doing so more costly than if they paid LEGAL workers wages and benefits that are standard for US citizens.

[pcfrisch]

Originally Posted by shartley

I have no problems with someone getting social security “credit” and benefits for the time they worked in the US legally. But I do have a problem with giving them credit for the time they spent working here illegally. I think what too many people (to include politicians) are forgetting is that the word ILLEGAL means “against the law”.

No matter how much the PC crowd wants to play the name game (i.e. “undocumented worker”) the people are still ILLEGAL workers.

And on that note… undocumented worker? I was born in the US, served my country as a soldier and as a police officer, and I could not get a single job without documentation. I had to prove who I was, and prove I was able to work in the country of my BIRTH legally. It just puts a bur in my saddle to see people who are clearly not here legally get jobs.

I say punish those employers who hire illegal workers. And do it in such a way that it makes doing so more costly than if they paid LEGAL workers wages and benefits that are standard for US citizens.

Amen to that, we don't have to worry about outside forces destroying this country, it's the politicians who are taking care of that.
It no longer means anything to work your butt off and hope for some type of reward. It's given free and clear to anyone who makes it here illegally.

[JB02GT]

Originally Posted by pcfrisch

Amen to that, we don't have to worry about outside forces destroying this country, it's the politicians who are taking care of that.
It no longer means anything to work your butt off and hope for some type of reward. It's given free and clear to anyone who makes it here illegally.

Hey, why not give Social Security money to illegals? We already hear, on a daily basis, how the SS system may not be in place when some of us reach retirement age, yet our government spends billions of dollars to 'liberate' or bail out all these pissant little countries all over the globe. I say, "Screw 'em." If we liberate you and you have oil money, etc. you will pay us back, with interest - and not at some ethereal point 'in the future' but as soon as possible. Period. Call it mercenary or whatever you like, it's time the American people stopped footing the bill for everything while our elderly have to work until they drop dead because they can't afford to retire. Here's an idea - this year, instead of sending all that aid money to this or that country none of us have ever heard of, or fighting another war to 'liberate' people who hate our guts, how about our government take those billions and deposit them in the Social Security fund. I'd be willing to bet that one year - just one - of taking care of ourselves instead of taking care of everybody else on the planet would make our SS system solvent for a very, very long time. Next thing? Leave enough money in the system to pay those folks who are already on SS then take the rest and establish a system more like Germany's where each and every individual LEGAL worker has an 'account' in their name and when they retire, that money is theirs, individually - much like a 401K. Solves the 'illegals getting credit' problem real quickly as you wouldn't be eligible for an account unless you were here legally. Our current system robs Peter to pay Paul and is not the best possible system, anyway. As for other folks - folks born with disabilities and never able to work - they would still receive aid, but not from the blanket 'Social Security' system. If they are never able to work, they would never be eligible for Social Security except, possibly, benefits from the account of a deceased parent. The thing that really sticks in my craw is that it sound like someone could come here illegally, work illegally, get paid under the table illegally, never pay taxes or pay into the Social Security system, receive amnesty and then suddenly get credit under the SS system for the time they worked illegally, even though they contributed nothing during that time. Even if they somehow did contribute to SS while working illegally, as has been pointed out, illegal is illegal and people are not supposed to be allowed to legally benefit from illegal activity, right?

My grandmother, who worked from the time she was 16 until whe was in her 70s and her health would no longer allow, could barely afford to make it from month to month on Social Security once she had to retire. What's wrong with that picture?

[kscoyote]

Originally Posted by JB02GT

Hey, why not give Social Security money to illegals? We already hear, on a daily basis, how the SS system may not be in place when some of us reach retirement age, yet our government spends billions of dollars to 'liberate' or bail out all these pissant little countries all over the globe. I say, "Screw 'em." If we liberate you and you have oil money, etc. you will pay us back, with interest - and not at some ethereal point 'in the future' but as soon as possible. Period. Call it mercenary or whatever you like, it's time the American people stopped footing the bill for everything while our elderly have to work until they drop dead because they can't afford to retire. Here's an idea - this year, instead of sending all that aid money to this or that country none of us have ever heard of, or fighting another war to 'liberate' people who hate our guts, how about our government take those billions and deposit them in the Social Security fund. I'd be willing to bet that one year - just one - of taking care of ourselves instead of taking care of everybody else on the planet would make our SS system solvent for a very, very long time. Next thing? Leave enough money in the system to pay those folks who are already on SS then take the rest and establish a system more like Germany's where each and every individual LEGAL worker has an 'account' in their name and when they retire, that money is theirs, individually - much like a 401K. Solves the 'illegals getting credit' problem real quickly as you wouldn't be eligible for an account unless you were here legally. Our current system robs Peter to pay Paul and is not the best possible system, anyway. As for other folks - folks born with disabilities and never able to work - they would still receive aid, but not from the blanket 'Social Security' system. If they are never able to work, they would never be eligible for Social Security except, possibly, benefits from the account of a deceased parent. The thing that really sticks in my craw is that it sound like someone could come here illegally, work illegally, get paid under the table illegally, never pay taxes or pay into the Social Security system, receive amnesty and then suddenly get credit under the SS system for the time they worked illegally, even though they contributed nothing during that time. Even if they somehow did contribute to SS while working illegally, as has been pointed out, illegal is illegal and people are not supposed to be allowed to legally benefit from illegal activity, right?

My grandmother, who worked from the time she was 16 until whe was in her 70s and her health would no longer allow, could barely afford to make it from month to month on Social Security once she had to retire. What's wrong with that picture?

Psssht.

We're already paying it through property taxes and health and homeowners insurance premiums.

[kscoyote]

A number of them are paying SS taxes already using stolen IDs.

[countymounty]

Originally Posted by kscoyote

A number of them are paying SS taxes already using stolen IDs.

And your point is????????

If this number was significant in any way shape or form then don’t you think 100 people paying into one SS account (and this being done over and over and over) would make it look like SS seems to be working out pretty good right now?

[kscoyote]

Originally Posted by countymounty

And your point is????????

If this number was significant in any way shape or form then don’t you think 100 people paying into one SS account (and this being done over and over and over) would make it look like SS seems to be working out pretty good right now?

Find the 2006 report from the Congressional Budget Office and the GAO, and you'll find the numbers very significant.

SS is working out pretty good, it's solvent for the next 70+ years. small changes will make it solvent for the foreseeable future.

______________________________________

There really isn't any point. For me it's a wash, as the depressed wages resulting from illegal immigration probably offset any contributions that a segment that pays into the system make.

And the costs to consumers of stolen identities are huge.

[tripleblack]

Originally Posted by countymounty

And your point is????????

If this number was significant in any way shape or form then don’t you think 100 people paying into one SS account (and this being done over and over and over) would make it look like SS seems to be working out pretty good right now?

Lamentably, the extra monies going in from illegals utilizing redundant numbers is considerably less than the extra monies going OUT to dead people whose families continue to cash the checks decades after the worker who earned them passes on.

It occurs to me that this would be particularly hard to police for cases where multiple workers utilized the same number - one supposes you would have to think that the group would discontinue the money train only after ALL the contibutors had died (assuming they were even THAT honest).

It might be entertaining to peruse the records and see how many extremely old people living outside the US are continuing to draw SS benefits...

Stupid as the bureacracy is, they are probably continuing to pay monies out to people over 150 years old! Makes the Ukranian and Japanese scams look like small pickins!

[kscoyote]

Originally Posted by tripleblack

Lamentably, the extra monies going in from illegals utilizing redundant numbers is considerably less than the extra monies going OUT to dead people whose families continue to cash the checks decades after the worker who earned them passes on.

It occurs to me that this would be particularly hard to police for cases where multiple workers utilized the same number - one supposes you would have to think that the group would discontinue the money train only after ALL the contibutors had died (assuming they were even THAT honest).

It might be entertaining to peruse the records and see how many extremely old people living outside the US are continuing to draw SS benefits...

Stupid as the bureacracy is, they are probably continuing to pay monies out to people over 150 years old! Makes the Ukranian and Japanese scams look like small pickins!

That's not been true for quite some time -Unless that particular enforcement arm was destroyed in recent years along with the employement enforcement wing.

They were very aggresive in the 90s, and the GAO found little fraud, then. I can't say anything about the current situation.

___________________________________

My grandfather was checked when he survived pancreatic cancer.

[Kyle F]

This sounds like a calculated move by the republicans, or maybe just the Bush administration taking care of a select few's personal interest, in getting rid of the SS system as we know it. They are trying to push to privatize the system already. This just appears to be a push to further complicate and strain the current system.

[tripleblack]

Enforcement checks that catch "extra" checks as soon as the entitlee dies have always been tough - even here at home. Bury grandma in the back 40, and unless someone squeals you out, the checks keep on comin. Identity theft has become the preferred method, however, with the ability to "move" dead people from the cemetaries and into a new home with SS benefits flowing to the "new" identity holder a growing problem. Its the same old story. As soon as they find a way to combat one source of fraud, two other new methods spring up.

But the really hard thing to spot is when this occurs outside the US database. I read the last report from the GAO, and I find what it DOESN'T address more telling than what it does. There was no mention of any capability to monitor retirees who have left our shores. The number of SS recipients outside the US has grown exponentially in the last 10 years (oddly consistent with the Mexican labor dumping campaign). Like many social programs designed to fit a certain culture and population, Social Security has little ability to cope with large scale fraud which is sourced outside its home culture and the view of its managers.

The success of internet fraud and all the schemes that suck folks (particularly the unwary) into putting money into the hands of off-shore crooks is really just one more example of the same thing, with the target the individual rather than the government. The current sophisticated "fake bank" routine (some of these sites are utterly believable, and look and work just like those of a genuine major bank) is particularly disturbing.

Originally Posted by kscoyote

That's not been true for quite some time -Unless that particular enforcement arm was destroyed in recent years along with the employement enforcement wing.

They were very aggresive in the 90s, and the GAO found little fraud, then. I can't say anything about the current situation.

___________________________________

My grandfather was checked when he survived pancreatic cancer.

[pcfrisch]

Originally Posted by Kyle F

This sounds like a calculated move by the republicans, or maybe just the Bush administration taking care of a select few's personal interest, in getting rid of the SS system as we know it. They are trying to push to privatize the system already. This just appears to be a push to further complicate and strain the current system.

The article says it first surfaced in 2004, but there was no chance in toothpics the republican congress would pass it, now that there are dems in control, it came out into the open again.

[tripleblack]

Originally Posted by pcfrisch

The article says it first surfaced in 2004, but there was no chance in toothpics the republican congress would pass it, now that there are dems in control, it came out into the open again.

Oddly enough, if there is meaningful change to the system, it will probably be sourced within the ranks of the Democrats. The Republicans had their shot, and it went nowhere. Fumbled, bumbled and dead on arrival.

Now, the odds that the Dems will do any better are low, imo, but not zero. It took the election of a lot of moderate and blue dog dems to win back control of the House, and its going to be interesting to see what comes out of there now. There are enough moderate Republicans who might jump over (given the right issue) to compensate for the left side of the Dem bench...

But it will probably just boil down to a laundry list of tax increases plus a quick amnesty program geared to adding millions of illegals to the tax paying roles.

Costs me nothing to hope, though.

[Vandil]

Not real concerned with it, something like 85% of my generation doesn't even believe it will be around when we retire nor will we ever see a penny of our contributions back.