I have been trying find a drill press (bench type) at a reasonable price, seems they are ALL made in China, Craftsman included.
A Birmingham Drill made in USA drill press cost over $2500! I'm not assemblying an Atom Bomb!
Any sugestions?
This is a toughie.
I found several listing Clausen Tools has fantastic tools), but they are for industrial grade goods. I think the cheapest one I found was over $750, and overkill for you.
Makita power tools are made in Georgia, but their heavy-duty stuff is not made here (factory grade and shop grade floor tools).
Porter-Cable/Delta (same company, in case someone didn't realize that, for the past 45 years) is an American-owned company, and they make SOME of their tools and parts here, but they are secretive about where, exactly, their tools are made (I think this stems from the fact that virtually none of them would qualify as "Made In America"). You used to see the American flag on their goods, but no more.
The Jet drill press got some good reviews, but I have no idea where its made (it would seem that NONE of the reviewers or sellers think that the source of the goods is important).
I always assume its made in China if they don't list the country of origin (in case any of those companies are reading this - you will get more respect from me if you come clean).
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
Yep, I believe I already linked to these guys. They ARE a good source to check.
I see where the various Made In America sites link to each other. Eventually, a centralized clearing house will be available...
I'm going to suggest that to Shopzilla and Amazon. Their huge databases could easily make this "Shop American" process go a lot easier! And of course, they would make money from the listings too.
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
Contrary to what some seem to think here, not all products made outside the US (to include China) are crap. And not all products made inside the US are great. There are plenty of crappy products and companies to go around. It is not something that is contained within or outside any particular border.
Americans seem to want to look down their noses at other countries and then complain when they (others) think the things they do about us. Well, take a good look at this and other threads concerning US vs “the world”. And trust me, I am not one of those “the US can never do anything right” people. I am however, a realist and call it like I see it.
Come on folks. It is one thing to have national pride and want to support businesses that are US based. But it is another to just set out to bash any other country or product and slither around under the fog of lies that the US has the best products and companies out there and nothing else in the world is of any suitable quality.
Me? Well I buy what I can afford and at the quality which I feel will meet my needs at the time. I look at the product and price, not where it was made. Because frankly if you put nation of origin as your top priority you are not only missing out on great deals and great products, but you are being rather…. well…. think about it as if you were talking about a person. Enough said.
We live in a global economy, yet used to it. It is not going to change, and it has been this way for quite some time. Demand quality products no matter where they come from. Being a smart consumer is about more than just buying American, it is about making an informed and intelligent purchasing decision. And further more, there is actually a NEED for crappy products at low prices (no matter where they come from). Many people can’t AFFORD to buy top end products but still require the things those items do; be it a tool, furniture, toys, electronics, etc.
And frankly if there are two products on the shelf of equal quality and one costs $5 less than the other, I buy it. I don’t look to see where it was made. But looking at this thread it appears that folks would say “if it has Made In China” on it but costs less, it is a crappy product. This however could not be farther from the truth… no more than putting a sticker on your car will make it go faster. I don’t make enough money to be able to pay MORE for the same quality, just so I get a product that is made in the US.
(Note: I am NOT saying ALL products from other countries are GREAT. But again, the same thing is true for US products as well.)
__________________
- Sam
The shackles of opression and dependence are most easily slipped on with a smile and kind words of hope.
You have the right to spend your money as you see fit.
There IS a concept that China, in particular, is a nation whose Communist totalitarian dictators have long held the goal of burying us, individually and "collectively".
I class this among the ideas of "voting with my dollars". Its a free choice made by free people.
Only in places like China is it otherwise.
As for product quality, no one is suggesting anyone buy an inferior product, anytime, anywhere, regardless of its source. A number of people have put forward their anecdotal evidence that the Chinese tools they bought were shoddy and a poor purchase. I'm sure that others will eventually post here that their Chinese made tools are better than the competing American brands.
Should one of our numerous enemies eventually manage to conquer this country and install their system of government (be it Communism or Islamic Law or whatever), both sides of the debate will have a firsthand oppoutunity to see whethr their opinions are correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shartley
Contrary to what some seem to think here, not all products made outside the US (to include China) are crap. And not all products made inside the US are great. There are plenty of crappy products and companies to go around. It is not something that is contained within or outside any particular border.
Americans seem to want to look down their noses at other countries and then complain when they (others) think the things they do about us. Well, take a good look at this and other threads concerning US vs “the world”. And trust me, I am not one of those “the US can never do anything right” people. I am however, a realist and call it like I see it.
Come on folks. It is one thing to have national pride and want to support businesses that are US based. But it is another to just set out to bash any other country or product and slither around under the fog of lies that the US has the best products and companies out there and nothing else in the world is of any suitable quality.
Me? Well I buy what I can afford and at the quality which I feel will meet my needs at the time. I look at the product and price, not where it was made. Because frankly if you put nation of origin as your top priority you are not only missing out on great deals and great products, but you are being rather…. well…. think about it as if you were talking about a person. Enough said.
We live in a global economy, yet used to it. It is not going to change, and it has been this way for quite some time. Demand quality products no matter where they come from. Being a smart consumer is about more than just buying American, it is about making an informed and intelligent purchasing decision. And further more, there is actually a NEED for crappy products at low prices (no matter where they come from). Many people can’t AFFORD to buy top end products but still require the things those items do; be it a tool, furniture, toys, electronics, etc.
And frankly if there are two products on the shelf of equal quality and one costs $5 less than the other, I buy it. I don’t look to see where it was made. But looking at this thread it appears that folks would say “if it has Made In China” on it but costs less, it is a crappy product. This however could not be farther from the truth… no more than putting a sticker on your car will make it go faster. I don’t make enough money to be able to pay MORE for the same quality, just so I get a product that is made in the US.
(Note: I am NOT saying ALL products from other countries are GREAT. But again, the same thing is true for US products as well.)
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
I noticed that Lowes is pushing these so called heavy duty tools called Kobalt....Of course they are made in China.
Lowes sells many imported items, but that isn't my whole gripe with them.
For the second year in a row, they have been showing their PC skirts, and it annoys me. Last year they sent me one of their thick, glossy Christmas broshures advertising their seasonal goods. All well and good, but then my sharp daughter looked through it and noted:
"Hey Dad, they mention everyone in here but Christians".
It was true. Sections of goods were set aside for every religion you can think of - except Christians (at Christmas). Muslims, Jews, Kwanzans, all mentioned by name and their symbols prominantly displayed... But nothing but generic secular goods after that - no meniton of the "C" word - or the "J" word.
They got caught doing it again this year, as have several other American mass-marketers. As usual, they issue a mumbled apology, and the matter is forgiven.
I just avoid Lowes (not that I love Home Depot, mind you).
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
No one here has said buy only Made in the U.S. items. But I try to avoid China like the plague due to their policies at home and their ideals toward this country. When they put lead in the toys we buy and blame Mattell, which bye the way are idiots for apologizing, there is something wrong here. I wonder how many "happy meal" toys that I have given to my daughter in the past are loaded with lead. I have compared their "tools" to other tools made here and other countries and have found that they are just pure junk.
__________________
2006 GT Tungsten Grey 5 spd, Xcal2/Pipeline CAI, Powerhouse tune. Spoiler delete. Front Speakers:Infinity 6812CF;Blaupunkt GTc652. Rear:Infinity Kappa 682.7CF. H/U:Alpine CDA-9885. Alpine MRP-F250 amp. Sequentials. President of the Splash guard registry. On Deck: Motoblue UDP's.
You have the right to spend your money as you see fit.
There IS a concept that China, in particular, is a nation whose Communist totalitarian dictators have long held the goal of burying us, individually and "collectively".
I class this among the ideas of "voting with my dollars". Its a free choice made by free people.
Only in places like China is it otherwise.
As for product quality, no one is suggesting anyone buy an inferior product, anytime, anywhere, regardless of its source. A number of people have put forward their anecdotal evidence that the Chinese tools they bought were shoddy and a poor purchase. I'm sure that others will eventually post here that their Chinese made tools are better than the competing American brands.
Should one of our numerous enemies eventually manage to conquer this country and install their system of government (be it Communism or Islamic Law or whatever), both sides of the debate will have a firsthand oppoutunity to see whethr their opinions are correct.
This is all correct, but not really as relevant as you make it out to be.
I will also point out that when folks buy “crappy Chinese” tools at half or 2/3 the price of higher quality American tools they didn’t get “crappy Chinese” tools but CRAPPY TOOLS. That was also my point. People compare quality levels as if the determining factor was where the tool was made, not the price range and quality of the item. Just because lower quality and priced items made in China are so often seen on the shelves does not mean that is all there is, or that they are the only ones to make these levels and price ranged items. That was also my point.
It would be like trying to compare a luxury car made by X company with an economy car made by Y company and then deducing that all things made by Y are crap because the car you purchased from them was not as good as the car your buddy purchased from X company. You get what you PAY for, not the nationality of the company who made it.
As for what choice folks in China or other countries have concerning buying and such… personally I don’t care. When was the last time that affected any of us? And you do know that the US exports to China as well as many of the other “bad guys” right? Sure, not at the levels they export to us, but there are many reasons for this…. one being they are already making much of it more cost effective (and no, not just “cheaper” as in quality) at home.
And you are correct that China has some “goals” but are they any worse than what Japan has done in the past? How about them lowering the price of their competing products to the point they are taking huge losses but running US (and others) manufacturers out of business and then raising the prices back up to fair market value when they have virtually no more competition? And there are plenty of other examples of messed up business tactics from all ports.
Heck, how about American business practices involving copyright and other infringements, strong arm tactics, and down right illegal things?
You see, this issue is not one of just US vs the world. It is about BUSINESS and that crosses all borders and ethnic boundaries. I can sit for days and tell folks about crappy US business practices and products but that would not be ideal in a thread aimed at trying to make the rest of the world look like the bad guys. Heck the same things were being ranted about concerning the auto industry in years past, and look at how many “foreign” car companies employ US workers on US soil. And they are not the only example of cross border/nationality businesses.
Also stop and think about raw materials used to make items. Chances are that the foreign product we buy was in some way made with US materials or parts, much like the US products is more than likely made with things purchased from abroad. It is not as simple as the end product any more. But again, all of this does not fit well with a thread touting the greatness of buying ONLY US products and acting as if buying anything other than US made products is somehow less “correct” than the alternative.
So by all means… vote with your dollars. But at least try to remember that your vote may not really be what you think it is, or supporting the ones who are actually doing the most good. The real answer is not as simple as them vs us.
__________________
- Sam
The shackles of opression and dependence are most easily slipped on with a smile and kind words of hope.
No one here has said buy only Made in the U.S. items. But I try to avoid China like the plague due to their policies at home and their ideals toward this country. When they put lead in the toys we buy and blame Mattell, which bye the way are idiots for apologizing, there is something wrong here. I wonder how many "happy meal" toys that I have given to my daughter in the past are loaded with lead. I have compared their "tools" to other tools made here and other countries and have found that they are just pure junk.
You might as well say “we are not saying to only breath water, we are saying to avoid breathing air”.
The problem with lead in items is not a CHINA issue, but one of quality control, period. China was not the only country with this problem. It was however the one the NEWS focused on. And I think folks would be shocked to know that recalls happen for all sorts of reasons and by companies of all national origin (or manufacturers of all national origin).
As for lead.. OH MY GOODNESS!!!!! Our children are going to DIE if they come in contact with ANYTHING with lead in it!
Sorry… that was a bit sarcastic. The truth is that lead is a PC issue now but not the health issue folks seem to think it is. The human race did not die out from exposure to lead, nor have the massive health issues people seem to think lead causes.
As for quality of tools…. Call me strange, but I have a house filled with CRAP tools and for the most part they seem to work just fine. Sure sometimes one will break, or the chrome chips off here or there, but for the vast majority of them work as intended for the time I own them… which is usually forever. I am sure that if I used those tools for a living I would require a higher grade of tool, but I don’t.
The items I DO use for making my living are usually of higher quality than I can get inexpressively while walking into the average Big Box store. But isn’t that what I was trying to say before anyways? There are many levels of quality and price. That does not make the lower levels “bad”, nor make the manufacturer “bad”. Sometimes it is better to have less than to have nothing…. And those with limited budgets know this all too well.
Now for Mattell apologizing for the bad products… they SHOULD. Sorry. When you use a manufacturer to make something for you, it is YOUR responsibility to insure quality and YOUR specifications. If I make a product that used X part and it is found to be faulty, it is MY product that is faulty, not just the part used. So I would apologize and make sure the problem is fixed. The same is true with Mattell. It may be PC to pass the blame on China, but Mattell accepted the products and put their name on them. Mattell should blame the manufacturer internally but take the hit themselves publicly since they approved and sold the products under their branding. That is how business works.
__________________
- Sam
The shackles of opression and dependence are most easily slipped on with a smile and kind words of hope.
LOL, I must admit, relevancy is also one of those "in the eye of the beholder items".
If it were $5 cheaper, I would go for the lower priced item as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shartley
This is all correct, but not really as relevant as you make it out to be.
I will also point out that when folks buy “crappy Chinese” tools at half or 2/3 the price of higher quality American tools they didn’t get “crappy Chinese” tools but CRAPPY TOOLS. That was also my point. People compare quality levels as if the determining factor was where the tool was made, not the price range and quality of the item. Just because lower quality and priced items made in China are so often seen on the shelves does not mean that is all there is, or that they are the only ones to make these levels and price ranged items. That was also my point.
It would be like trying to compare a luxury car made by X company with an economy car made by Y company and then deducing that all things made by Y are crap because the car you purchased from them was not as good as the car your buddy purchased from X company. You get what you PAY for, not the nationality of the company who made it.
As for what choice folks in China or other countries have concerning buying and such… personally I don’t care. When was the last time that affected any of us? And you do know that the US exports to China as well as many of the other “bad guys” right? Sure, not at the levels they export to us, but there are many reasons for this…. one being they are already making much of it more cost effective (and no, not just “cheaper” as in quality) at home.
And you are correct that China has some “goals” but are they any worse than what Japan has done in the past? How about them lowering the price of their competing products to the point they are taking huge losses but running US (and others) manufacturers out of business and then raising the prices back up to fair market value when they have virtually no more competition? And there are plenty of other examples of messed up business tactics from all ports.
Heck, how about American business practices involving copyright and other infringements, strong arm tactics, and down right illegal things?
You see, this issue is not one of just US vs the world. It is about BUSINESS and that crosses all borders and ethnic boundaries. I can sit for days and tell folks about crappy US business practices and products but that would not be ideal in a thread aimed at trying to make the rest of the world look like the bad guys. Heck the same things were being ranted about concerning the auto industry in years past, and look at how many “foreign” car companies employ US workers on US soil. And they are not the only example of cross border/nationality businesses.
Also stop and think about raw materials used to make items. Chances are that the foreign product we buy was in some way made with US materials or parts, much like the US products is more than likely made with things purchased from abroad. It is not as simple as the end product any more. But again, all of this does not fit well with a thread touting the greatness of buying ONLY US products and acting as if buying anything other than US made products is somehow less “correct” than the alternative.
So by all means… vote with your dollars. But at least try to remember that your vote may not really be what you think it is, or supporting the ones who are actually doing the most good. The real answer is not as simple as them vs us.
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
I'm just now making my Christmas list - and I bet a lot of others are too!
My list is chaotic - and some of the items hard to find (snowboard boots for my daughter, for example).
I'm going to be working on shopping this stuff today, so if anyone wants to post up a problem item they are having trouble sourcing, feel free.
I just completed a shopping expedition for my mother in search of a new Refrigerator. Her 30 year old GE is STILL working just fine, but she's tired of it, and wants one that is easier for her to access. She likes the French Door model, with the freezer drawer on the bottom.
She's also almost impossible to nail down as to her priorities.
"I want another GE, or at least one made in the U.S."
OK, Mom, here they are, and the best buys are about $1600...
"No, the nice man over there showed me one that only costs $1300!"
Yeah, Mom, but that one is made in South Korea. You said you wanted a GE because it will last forever like all your other...
"Where was that one made?"
Mexico, Mom, and its a company I've never heard of which probably didn't exist 5 years ago, so no way to know if they will last forever like this GE here...
"Why doesn't GE make one that is cheaper?"
Mom, I would just be guessing, here, but it might be that making refrigerators that last 40 years troublefree MIGHT cost a little more...
Etc. We actually had the discussion three seperate times. The sales guy's eyes crossed and he fell asleep somewhere on the third lap...
Sort of like some of the less exciting NASCAR races.
We went in a circle a hundred times, and we still haven't arrived at any conclusion yet.
Pray for me.
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
LOL, I must admit, relevancy is also one of those "in the eye of the beholder items".
If it were $5 cheaper, I would go for the lower priced item as well.
Too true.
I just wish things were black and white like they used to be. But now days we live in such a quagmire of grays that it is often hard to nail down absolutes concerning many of the issues we discussed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tripleblack
I'm just now making my Christmas list - and I bet a lot of others are too!
…. Truncated ……
Pray for me.
I certainly will. LOL And I also know this issue all too well. It is another twist put into a smart purchasing decision. But it also applies to US based companies as well.
I always tell folks to do the research and buy what is best for THEM, and let the chips fall where they may. Sometimes it may be a US product, sometimes it may be a German one, a Chinese one, or whatever. I say buy quality and what meets your needs and budget. We see what we see on shelves because people willingly buy them, not because they are forced to.
But thankfully in the US we have that choice, and a VERY wide range of products to choose from. Heck, just look at our grocery stores. We live in the land of excess and complain about it.
__________________
- Sam
The shackles of opression and dependence are most easily slipped on with a smile and kind words of hope.
Drill Presses 
Heck the same things were being ranted about concerning the auto industry in years past, and look at how many “foreign” car companies employ US workers on US soil. And they are not the only example of cross border/nationality businesses.
