You might as well say “we are not saying to only breath water, we are saying to avoid breathing air”.
The problem with lead in items is not a CHINA issue, but one of quality control, period. China was not the only country with this problem. It was however the one the NEWS focused on. And I think folks would be shocked to know that recalls happen for all sorts of reasons and by companies of all national origin (or manufacturers of all national origin).
As for lead.. OH MY GOODNESS!!!!! Our children are going to DIE if they come in contact with ANYTHING with lead in it!
Sorry… that was a bit sarcastic. The truth is that lead is a PC issue now but not the health issue folks seem to think it is. The human race did not die out from exposure to lead, nor have the massive health issues people seem to think lead causes.
As for quality of tools…. Call me strange, but I have a house filled with CRAP tools and for the most part they seem to work just fine. Sure sometimes one will break, or the chrome chips off here or there, but for the vast majority of them work as intended for the time I own them… which is usually forever. I am sure that if I used those tools for a living I would require a higher grade of tool, but I don’t.
The items I DO use for making my living are usually of higher quality than I can get inexpressively while walking into the average Big Box store. But isn’t that what I was trying to say before anyways? There are many levels of quality and price. That does not make the lower levels “bad”, nor make the manufacturer “bad”. Sometimes it is better to have less than to have nothing…. And those with limited budgets know this all too well.
Now for Mattell apologizing for the bad products… they SHOULD. Sorry. When you use a manufacturer to make something for you, it is YOUR responsibility to insure quality and YOUR specifications. If I make a product that used X part and it is found to be faulty, it is MY product that is faulty, not just the part used. So I would apologize and make sure the problem is fixed. The same is true with Mattell. It may be PC to pass the blame on China, but Mattell accepted the products and put their name on them. Mattell should blame the manufacturer internally but take the hit themselves publicly since they approved and sold the products under their branding. That is how business works.
Lead is a PC issue?!
Let me send you some to chomp on for a while. G'head! consume all you want!
The observed and quantifiable effects of lead and lead poisoning are all just a hoax, as are the effects of polonium and mercury!
It's all PC, you can consume virtually anything!
I'll send you a few thermometers for lunch!
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
You might as well say “we are not saying to only breath water, we are saying to avoid breathing air”.
The problem with lead in items is not a CHINA issue, but one of quality control, period. China was not the only country with this problem. It was however the one the NEWS focused on. And I think folks would be shocked to know that recalls happen for all sorts of reasons and by companies of all national origin (or manufacturers of all national origin).
As for lead.. OH MY GOODNESS!!!!! Our children are going to DIE if they come in contact with ANYTHING with lead in it!
Sorry… that was a bit sarcastic. The truth is that lead is a PC issue now but not the health issue folks seem to think it is. The human race did not die out from exposure to lead, nor have the massive health issues people seem to think lead causes.
As for quality of tools…. Call me strange, but I have a house filled with CRAP tools and for the most part they seem to work just fine. Sure sometimes one will break, or the chrome chips off here or there, but for the vast majority of them work as intended for the time I own them… which is usually forever. I am sure that if I used those tools for a living I would require a higher grade of tool, but I don’t.
The items I DO use for making my living are usually of higher quality than I can get inexpressively while walking into the average Big Box store. But isn’t that what I was trying to say before anyways? There are many levels of quality and price. That does not make the lower levels “bad”, nor make the manufacturer “bad”. Sometimes it is better to have less than to have nothing…. And those with limited budgets know this all too well.
Now for Mattell apologizing for the bad products… they SHOULD. Sorry. When you use a manufacturer to make something for you, it is YOUR responsibility to insure quality and YOUR specifications. If I make a product that used X part and it is found to be faulty, it is MY product that is faulty, not just the part used. So I would apologize and make sure the problem is fixed. The same is true with Mattell. It may be PC to pass the blame on China, but Mattell accepted the products and put their name on them. Mattell should blame the manufacturer internally but take the hit themselves publicly since they approved and sold the products under their branding. That is how business works.
OMG, I can't believe you said lead was a pc issue.....I work at U of M hospital, would you like to talk to a few docs about this?
__________________
2006 GT Tungsten Grey 5 spd, Xcal2/Pipeline CAI, Powerhouse tune. Spoiler delete. Front Speakers:Infinity 6812CF;Blaupunkt GTc652. Rear:Infinity Kappa 682.7CF. H/U:Alpine CDA-9885. Alpine MRP-F250 amp. Sequentials. President of the Splash guard registry. On Deck: Motoblue UDP's.
Let me send you some to chomp on for a while. G'head! consume all you want!
The observed and quantifiable effects of lead and lead poisoning are all just a hoax, as are the effects of polonium and mercury!
It's all PC, you can consume virtually anything!
I'll send you a few thermometers for lunch!
I actually have you on ignore.. have had for quite some time. But at times my curiosity gets the best of me.
I think you know what I meant when I said what I did. Yes the quantifiable affect of lead can lead to health issues. However we as a nation have all but eliminated lead from things we come in physical contact with every day. And as a nation we used to have it in massive amounts of things we came into physical contact with, to include paint used on appliances, tubs, walls, toys, and more.. as well as in our plumbing. But we didn’t die off or have so many problems that our species was in jeopardy.
So YES, the threat to our health, or that of our children, caused by lead in a toy’s paint or any other single item is PC fear mongering. As is fat in foods, cholesterol, and many other things that when in small amounts are no threat to the vast majority of people’s health. Yet we see people making money (and lots of noise) trying to make people afraid of everything now days. Heck, kids put much worse things in their mouths on a regular basis than a toy with minute traces of lead in its paint.
I am just surprised how we survived as a species this long with all the dangers out there.
On another note, there was a study done and it found that anti-bacterial soap killed no more bacteria than “standard” soap does.
__________________
- Sam
The shackles of opression and dependence are most easily slipped on with a smile and kind words of hope.
OMG, I can't believe you said lead was a pc issue.....I work at U of M hospital, would you like to talk to a few docs about this?
Read my response above.
It is not that lead is not a health issue, but the emphasis which is placed on it compared to the actual danger.
ADDED: And I find it telling that out of all that I posted, my comments about lead (which was actually the smallest part of HUGE posts) was what was commented on. LOL
__________________
- Sam
The shackles of opression and dependence are most easily slipped on with a smile and kind words of hope.
It is not that lead is not a health issue, but the emphasis which is placed on it compared to the actual danger.
I'm sorry but I don't buy it.
Lead Poisoning
Lead poisoning is common. About one in 20 preschoolers have high levels of lead in their blood.
Children may be exposed to lead or lead dust from old paint on their hands or toys, and then put their hands in their mouths. They can breathe lead dust from old paint, or eat paint chips or dirt that has lead in it. Water that comes from pipes with lead soldering can contain lead, too. Some pottery and ceramic dishes, home remedies, vending machine trinkets, and costume jewelry contain lead. There are many, many potential sources of lead exposure. Learn about all the potential sources of exposure so you will know whether your child might be at risk. If you have questions, ask your pediatrician.
Some potential sources of exposure are:
Lead paint in houses built before 1978
This is the primary source of lead dust in pre-1978 homes
The older the house, the greater the probability it contains lead
Imported food cans with lead soldering
Doors and windows
Calcium supplements (from bone meal, dolomite or oyster shells)
Water from old plumbing fixtures with lead soldering
Lead in dust and soil
Imported colored newspaper, bread and candy wrappers
Old painted toys and furniture
Hobbies that use lead products, such as making stained glass windows
Exposure at work (parents may bring lead home on their clothes)
Toy jewelry, such as from dollar stores or vending machines
Some snacks or candies from other countries, such as Chapulines (grasshoppers) from the Mexican state of Oaxaca or Bolirindo lollipops.
Foods made or stored in lead-glazed pottery or lead crystal
Ammunition
Lead sinkers for fishing
Approximately 310,000 U.S. children aged 1-5 years have blood lead levels greater than 10 micrograms of lead per deciliter of blood, the level at which CDC recommends public health actions be initiated.
Lead poisoning can affect nearly every system in the body. Because lead poisoning often occurs with no obvious symptoms, it frequently goes unrecognized. Lead poisoning can cause learning disabilities, behavioral problems, and, at very high levels, seizures, coma, and even death.
__________________
2006 GT Tungsten Grey 5 spd, Xcal2/Pipeline CAI, Powerhouse tune. Spoiler delete. Front Speakers:Infinity 6812CF;Blaupunkt GTc652. Rear:Infinity Kappa 682.7CF. H/U:Alpine CDA-9885. Alpine MRP-F250 amp. Sequentials. President of the Splash guard registry. On Deck: Motoblue UDP's.
Lead Poisoning
Lead poisoning is common. About one in 20 preschoolers have high levels of lead in their blood.
Children may be exposed to lead or lead dust from old paint on their hands or toys, and then put their hands in their mouths. They can breathe lead dust from old paint, or eat paint chips or dirt that has lead in it. Water that comes from pipes with lead soldering can contain lead, too. Some pottery and ceramic dishes, home remedies, vending machine trinkets, and costume jewelry contain lead. There are many, many potential sources of lead exposure. Learn about all the potential sources of exposure so you will know whether your child might be at risk. If you have questions, ask your pediatrician.
Some potential sources of exposure are:
Lead paint in houses built before 1978
This is the primary source of lead dust in pre-1978 homes
The older the house, the greater the probability it contains lead
Imported food cans with lead soldering
Doors and windows
Calcium supplements (from bone meal, dolomite or oyster shells)
Water from old plumbing fixtures with lead soldering
Lead in dust and soil
Imported colored newspaper, bread and candy wrappers
Old painted toys and furniture
Hobbies that use lead products, such as making stained glass windows
Exposure at work (parents may bring lead home on their clothes)
Toy jewelry, such as from dollar stores or vending machines
Some snacks or candies from other countries, such as Chapulines (grasshoppers) from the Mexican state of Oaxaca or Bolirindo lollipops.
Foods made or stored in lead-glazed pottery or lead crystal
Ammunition
Lead sinkers for fishing
Approximately 310,000 U.S. children aged 1-5 years have blood lead levels greater than 10 micrograms of lead per deciliter of blood, the level at which CDC recommends public health actions be initiated.
Lead poisoning can affect nearly every system in the body. Because lead poisoning often occurs with no obvious symptoms, it frequently goes unrecognized. Lead poisoning can cause learning disabilities, behavioral problems, and, at very high levels, seizures, coma, and even death.
Thank you for posting that information. It does not however disprove what I said.
It is simply a list of a bunch of facts that in themselves mean little, and even less since they are designed to insinuate something without actually saying it. They use a bunch of facts but make NO statements as to what affects WILL happen when exposed to lead. And in fact they state that 1 in 20 preschool children have high levels of lead but don’t even say what that means or what problems these children have… not “may have”, or “could have”, but HAVE.
The same types of things can be said about just about anything, from sugar, water, and even dust it the air we breath.
Sorry, “may” “could” and other such words mean little to me since I “may” win the lottery this Wednesday. But the odds of that happening are astronomically small. And if the odds of the things they say “can” happen with “very high” levels of lead were truly that serious and probable there would not be the need to use such evasive and inconclusive language.
However, like I said above…. More children have autism now days than have higher than normal lead levels in their blood… according to the official Autism site.
Just about everything on earth can harm you in one way or another. This is true. There is no argument to be had there. But most things do NOT harm people. We are a resilient species with lots of natural protections form things, and we heal rather well when injured. Yet to listen to everyone now days we are going to DIE if we don’t do what they think is crucial at the moment… usually it also helps their bank account.
We have become a society of victims and being afraid of everything… and those who capitalize on that.
So no, I am not saying that lead can not have serious consequences for people. What I am saying is that there is far more FUSS made over it than the reality of things IMHO. And you are free to disagree with that. But nothing you posted proved there is a huge health crisis stemming from lead. CAN CAUSE, does not denote that in most cases it DOES. I would argue that in the vast majority of cases it causes little to no real issues. If it did, we would see it on the news every day, but we don’t.
And with that said, I will not discuss it any further. It is not important for the topic of the thread since lead in children’s toys is not limited to China. Nor is lead contact limited to toys. Like I said, it was a small comment I made. Agree with it or not. I don’t care. But it does not deserve the fuss now being made over it. LOL
__________________
- Sam
The shackles of opression and dependence are most easily slipped on with a smile and kind words of hope.
I actually have you on ignore.. have had for quite some time. But at times my curiosity gets the best of me.
I think you know what I meant when I said what I did. Yes the quantifiable affect of lead can lead to health issues. However we as a nation have all but eliminated lead from things we come in physical contact with every day. And as a nation we used to have it in massive amounts of things we came into physical contact with, to include paint used on appliances, tubs, walls, toys, and more.. as well as in our plumbing. But we didn’t die off or have so many problems that our species was in jeopardy.
So YES, the threat to our health, or that of our children, caused by lead in a toy’s paint or any other single item is PC fear mongering. As is fat in foods, cholesterol, and many other things that when in small amounts are no threat to the vast majority of people’s health. Yet we see people making money (and lots of noise) trying to make people afraid of everything now days. Heck, kids put much worse things in their mouths on a regular basis than a toy with minute traces of lead in its paint.
I am just surprised how we survived as a species this long with all the dangers out there.
On another note, there was a study done and it found that anti-bacterial soap killed no more bacteria than “standard” soap does.
That is SOOO untrue, until relatively recently there wasn't much lead in the environment, here. This has been an industrial country for only the past 100 years or so, and lead concentrations were virtually nil until lead was used as an additive in Gasoline and Paints.
According to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, humans can encounter lead through deteriorating paint and dust, air, drinking water, food and contaminated soil. Sources of lead are plentiful – until the 1970s lead was used in paint, gasoline and older water pipes. Today, much of that lead is still out there – on old window frames, in the soil of the vegetable gardens and in the drinking water of many American cities.
In the 1970s, Dr. Needleman was the first to discover cognitive effects in children who had been exposed to lead. Though the children had no visible signs of lead poisoning, they had significantly lower scores on IQ tests. As a result of these studies and others, lead has been removed from gasoline, paint and numerous other products.
Such measures have resulted in sharply lower levels of lead in children born today, compared to those born 30 years ago. Yet, Dr. Needleman's latest research shows that even very low levels of lead found in bone, as measured by a technique called X-ray fluorescence, can affect brain development.
In a 1996 Pitt study of 301 children, those with the highest concentrations of lead – still below government-recommended safe levels – had tests scores showing more aggression, attentional disorders and delinquency. In 2002, those findings were extended to show that the average bone lead levels in 190 adjudicated delinquents was higher than normal controls.
______________________________________________
I first noticed the correlation on a project in Chicago on 1997 while I was working at the University of Kansas.
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
Thank you for posting that information. It does not however disprove what I said.
It is simply a list of a bunch of facts that in themselves mean little, and even less since they are designed to insinuate something without actually saying it. They use a bunch of facts but make NO statements as to what affects WILL happen when exposed to lead. And in fact they state that 1 in 20 preschool children have high levels of lead but don’t even say what that means or what problems these children have… not “may have”, or “could have”, but HAVE.
The same types of things can be said about just about anything, from sugar, water, and even dust it the air we breath.
Sorry, “may” “could” and other such words mean little to me since I “may” win the lottery this Wednesday. But the odds of that happening are astronomically small. And if the odds of the things they say “can” happen with “very high” levels of lead were truly that serious and probable there would not be the need to use such evasive and inconclusive language.
However, like I said above…. More children have autism now days than have higher than normal lead levels in their blood… according to the official Autism site.
Just about everything on earth can harm you in one way or another. This is true. There is no argument to be had there. But most things do NOT harm people. We are a resilient species with lots of natural protections form things, and we heal rather well when injured. Yet to listen to everyone now days we are going to DIE if we don’t do what they think is crucial at the moment… usually it also helps their bank account.
We have become a society of victims and being afraid of everything… and those who capitalize on that.
So no, I am not saying that lead can not have serious consequences for people. What I am saying is that there is far more FUSS made over it than the reality of things IMHO. And you are free to disagree with that. But nothing you posted proved there is a huge health crisis stemming from lead. CAN CAUSE, does not denote that in most cases it DOES. I would argue that in the vast majority of cases it causes little to no real issues. If it did, we would see it on the news every day, but we don’t.
And with that said, I will not discuss it any further. It is not important for the topic of the thread since lead in children’s toys is not limited to China. Nor is lead contact limited to toys. Like I said, it was a small comment I made. Agree with it or not. I don’t care. But it does not deserve the fuss now being made over it. LOL
*Swearing*
I reckon that sonce you only have a 50% chance of being permanently damaged by high radiation from a nuclear bomb from a certain distance, that's a PC issue as well.
You MAY have symptoms that include you skin sloughing off, your hair falling out, ragged breathing, and other symptoms, it's ALL just PC.
Because results will vary!
Individuals NEVER react to the same poison in the same way.
you may build up a resistance to arsenic (In fact, that's how Royals used to protect themselves from being poisoned) by eating arsenic, but it will still shorten your life.
Whether or not it has any visible symptoms.
What a bizarro-world this has become!
Does anyone know anything about how doses are determined?!?!:?
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
In a 1996 Pitt study of 301 children, those with the highest concentrations of lead – still below government-recommended safe levels – had tests scores showing more aggression, attentional disorders and delinquency. In 2002, those findings were extended to show that the average bone lead levels in 190 adjudicated delinquents was higher than normal controls. The results indicated that between 18 and 38 percent of all delinquency in Pennsylvania's Allegheny County, which includes Pittsburgh, could be due to lead. Additionally, a number of recent studies have shown a strong relationship between sales of leaded gasoline and rates of violent crime.
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
What makes Nevin's work persuasive is that he has shown an identical, decades-long association between lead poisoning and crime rates in nine countries.
"It is stunning how strong the association is," Nevin said in an interview. "Sixty-five to ninety percent or more of the substantial variation in violent crime in all these countries was explained by lead."
Through much of the 20th century, lead in U.S. paint and gasoline fumes poisoned toddlers as they put contaminated hands in their mouths. The consequences on crime, Nevin found, occurred when poisoning victims became adolescents. Nevin does not say that lead is the only factor behind crime, but he says it is the biggest factor.
________________________________________________
The centerpiece of Nevin's research is an analysis of crime rates and lead poisoning levels across a century. The United States has had two spikes of lead poisoning: one at the turn of the 20th century, linked to lead in household paint, and one after World War II, when the use of leaded gasoline increased sharply. Both times, the violent crime rate went up and down in concert, with the violent crime peaks coming two decades after the lead poisoning peaks.
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
In a 1996 Pitt study of 301 children, those with the highest concentrations of lead – still below government-recommended safe levels – had tests scores showing more aggression, attentional disorders and delinquency. In 2002, those findings were extended to show that the average bone lead levels in 190 adjudicated delinquents was higher than normal controls. The results indicated that between 18 and 38 percent of all delinquency in Pennsylvania's Allegheny County, which includes Pittsburgh, could be due to lead. Additionally, a number of recent studies have shown a strong relationship between sales of leaded gasoline and rates of violent crime.
Y'know, KS, I wonder if anyone is doing these sorts of studies in China right now?
Or the ex-USSR (particularly Russia and eastern Europe)?
They polluted worse - and longer - than we did.
And from all indications, still are.
China could be the very worst, for that matter. Their respect for human life is hovering at a very low level.
Bad enough they do it to themselves and their own kids - I view the examples we're seeing so far as just the early warnings. Better to shine lots of light on the subject and maybe China (etc) will do something about it.
It would be a case of doing us and THEM a favor.
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
Y'know, KS, I wonder if anyone is doing these sorts of studies in China right now?
Or the ex-USSR (particularly Russia and eastern Europe)?
They polluted worse - and longer - than we did.
And from all indications, still are.
China could be the very worst, for that matter. Their respect for human life is hovering at a very low level.
Bad enough they do it to themselves and their own kids - I view the examples we're seeing so far as just the early warnings. Better to shine lots of light on the subject and maybe China (etc) will do something about it.
It would be a case of doing us and THEM a favor.
You'd have to wait 20 years, but the last analysis I posted tracked lead contamination in several different countries. All with the same result.
The charts are eerie.
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
Well, the search for non-Chinese extension cords goes on, county.
Forget about Home Depot. I just checked every extension cord they sell, ALL made in China.
Its a commie plot, that's for sure!
Those 2 higher end companies we listed earlier might work, but I'll be cheching this further.
As for tools, I'm finding that many Bosch tools are made in the USA - while Delta/Porter+Cable are mostly made in Mexico, though some are also made in China. The Milwaukee power tools I looked at are made in Wisconsin, USA - so keep that in mind. I just read a review of these tools that predicted that, since they are made better, the working parts (electric motors, driver and switches) will last at least 50% longer than competing brands.
They also cost about 10-20% more than the Chinese products, so its a cost/benefit situation (as usual).
50% longer life - 15% more cost? Seems like a good exchange to me.
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
I bought two extension cords last year for the Christmas lights, neither made it through a year before they fried.
This year I had to buy two more……cant find any not made in china, I could get the “construction” grade cost over twice as much and is made in china……..argggggg……..
Yea I bought all craftsman tools when I outfitted my shop thinking I’d buy American…..turns out only their hand tools are made in America……..power tools….made in China………..argggggg
__________________
So , let me get this straight…..your Honda has 1.6 liters, whereas my bottle of Mountain Dew has 2?
Change…..it’s what is left after taxes.
- Shaken....Not Stirred 2003 Mach I Auto Torch Red - Sold
-1988 Ford Mustang GT Convertible, 331 Trick Flow Stroker with a Tremec 3550....oh yea and a 1.6 liter V-TECH motor to work the convertible top.
- 1966 Inline 6……..the pile of parts car!
I bought two extension cords last year for the Christmas lights, neither made it through a year before they fried.
This year I had to buy two more……cant find any not made in china, I could get the “construction” grade cost over twice as much and is made in china……..argggggg……..
Yea I bought all craftsman tools when I outfitted my shop thinking I’d buy American…..turns out only their hand tools are made in America……..power tools….made in China………..argggggg
Still working on the extension cords, county. WalMart and Home Depot are 100% Chinese.
Most Bosch power tools are made in the U.S., while all the Milwaukee power and air tools I looked at are made here (real nice workmanship, too).
I think some of the larger Craftsman power tools may still be made in the U.S., but they have sold their souls for all the little stuff.
Not sure about their lawnmowers and such.
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
