Who said that I justify these actions or making an excuse for them, and yes its criminal governments who support these actions against there citizens actually there is no word to describe how bad these actions are, and no defenses, but saying under the low of Islam it’s not true.
Many countries saying that they are following the Islamic rules, none of these countries are following the Islamic rules.
In answer to your question, obviously since this thread dates from long before you started posting in this forum, it was not directed at you.
As for whether or not these (as you correctly label them) "criminal governments" misappropriate Sharia/Islamic Law for their own narrow purposes, I can only say that I agree that they are criminals.
Until Islam stands up worldwide and disowns these sorts of actions, I will withhold judgement as to whether or not these Governments are mis-reading their Korans or not.
I would agree that it IS the most important debate which SHOULD be occuring within Islam.
Christians had a similar debate - and fought wars over it - hundreds of years ago. There is no doubt that the process is painful.
This sort of honest exchange IS the underlying reason for this thread. I never doubted that there were people of good conscience among the world's Muslims who would see these things as wrong.
[quote=abud_1999;1370360]Who said that I justify these actions or making an excuse for them, and yes its criminal governments who support these actions against there citizens actually there is no word to describe how bad these actions are, and no defenses, but saying under the low of Islam it’s not true.
Many countries saying that they are following the Islamic rules, none of these countries are following the Islamic rules.[quote]
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
[quote=abud_1999;1370360]
Until Islam stands up worldwide and disowns these sorts of actions, I will withhold judgement as to whether or not these Governments are mis-reading their Korans or not. .[quote]
Totally agree with you, actually Islam is suffering now from been controlled by ignorant non educated people, and they trying to use it in politics, in early days of Islam there was separating between politics and Islam.
As I said I have tons of same sad stories happening, by the name of Islam
I believe that what’s happening now is like what happened with Christianity in middle ages.
By the way, if you want to take a good example of a good Muslim, in state they are many.
Hopefully obama will success to prevent Torturing during investigations so will never have any sad pictures like abu ghreab prison.
What does this have to do with the thread topic?
The issue of how information is gathered, and even gleamed from prisoners, is another issue and topic all together. And if you think what happened at Abu Ghreab is horrible (and it may very well be depending on perspective) then I suggest you look at ANY of the other countries and "groups" out there... I think you will find that at our WORSE we are far better than anyone else out there in that regard. And IMO that has made us more vulnerable, not "more hated".
I will also point out that our "bad" things are not reflective of our standard behavior.. yet the same can NOT be said about others.
This is a very complex issue and works on many levels. And unfortunately the United States sets the rules of play to give us a HUGE disadvantage compared to anyone else playing the game, more so those playing against us. And people still expect us to WIN? LOL Only in movies does the guy with the white hat and "high standards" win by default. In reality, most of the time it is the one willing to do ANYTHING to accomplish their goals that wins.
To truly win against those who are willing to do anything, you have to be willing to get your own hands dirty from time to time. I believe in control and doing the least "bad" but to think you can do nothing "dirty" and still win is IMO naive. It is all very unfortunate, but you can't deal with a rabid pit-bull by simply talking nice to it and "reasoning" with it. And in most cases you can't "talk" a bully out of being a bully..... you have to be bigger and stronger than they are.
__________________
- Sam
The shackles of opression and dependence are most easily slipped on with a smile and kind words of hope.
So if the nation of Islam and all the other countries in the world have the right to be up in arms over Abu Graihb then how are we to feel about Daniel Pearl, you know the American who was beheaded slowly?
I watched that entire video despite my disgust and anger. I wached it so I would have a graphic and vivid memory to recall whenever some jackass tried to pull the 'woe is me' card when it comes to torture.
You can take the embarassment and humiliation of Abu Graihb and shove it right up your houka and smoke that.
__________________
Sometimes I think that government fits that old-fashioned definition of a baby: An alimentary canal with an appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other.
- Ronald Reagan
So if the nation of Islam and all the other countries in the world have the right to be up in arms over Abu Graihb then how are we to feel about Daniel Pearl, you know the American who was beheaded slowly?
I watched that entire video despite my disgust and anger. I wached it so I would have a graphic and vivid memory to recall whenever some jackass tried to pull the 'woe is me' card when it comes to torture.
You can take the embarassment and humiliation of Abu Graihb and shove it right up your houka and smoke that.
County posted a link that contained MANY such beheadings. I watched most of them and was actually emotionally sick for a few days afterward. I mean literally sick on a mental level. And I am not unaccustomed to gory things (not just movies but real life).
I think EVERYONE should watch these things. It will truly put things in perspective. Too many people seem to think that "making someone feel bad" or them "being uncomfortable" equates to the HORRORS inflicted upon people by our enemies. There is simply NO comparison. And while I do think some limits must be kept, we have not even come close to committing acts the come close to the TRUE atrocities being done by those who hate us... not even one time.
__________________
- Sam
The shackles of opression and dependence are most easily slipped on with a smile and kind words of hope.
I agree with that sentiment Sam. We've not come close to the sheer agony and blood thirst that's been revealed by the beheadings of captives. Sure, some guys have been waterboarded and some have had their testicles electrocuted. But they still have every one of thei appendages and all of their own blood.
Regardless of popular belief, we've not even begun to use the REALLY morbid and barbaric means that the ancient Chinese and Japanese torturers used.
__________________
Sometimes I think that government fits that old-fashioned definition of a baby: An alimentary canal with an appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other.
- Ronald Reagan
"Moral Equivilance" is as evil a concept in its own way as terrorism.
The idea that denying a requested soft drink during an interrogation (and yes, there is, believe it or not, a cite for this from the new lady in CHARGE of this function in our government now) is somehow the same as sawing off the head of a helpless captive is "moral equivilance".
This is an counter-logical process sweeping through our government as we speak, and anyone with any sense must point out these issues and hold them up to ridicule wherever possible.
It is laughable and actually insulting to hold up the sophomoric humor of the guards at Abu Graib in the same discussion with the slaying of children, the stoning of women, and the beheading of non-combatants.
Its also important to note that ALL those American troops involved in breaking those rules at that prison were punished, by us.
I have somehow missed the news releases from al Qaeda where they perform similar self-policing functions on the likes of Sheikh Mohhamed.
There IS no moral equivilance here.
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
There's a reason for the lack of moral equivalence. The nutjobs over there are lacking morals.
__________________
Sometimes I think that government fits that old-fashioned definition of a baby: An alimentary canal with an appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other.
- Ronald Reagan
So if the nation of Islam and all the other countries in the world have the right to be up in arms over Abu Graihb then how are we to feel about Daniel Pearl, you know the American who was beheaded slowly?
I watched that entire video despite my disgust and anger. I wached it so I would have a graphic and vivid memory to recall whenever some jackass tried to pull the 'woe is me' card when it comes to torture.
You can take the embarassment and humiliation of Abu Graihb and shove it right up your houka and smoke that.
First of all there is miss comparing with events, the people who killed Daniel Pearl are terrorist, what you will expect from a terrorist.
And regarding the tutoring thing I mentioned before, I know that the American government allowed soldier, to use some types of tutoring during the investigation, which I will not expect from US government, people are not angels even in US army, but once you allow tutoring of one type, one sick man will come and do more than that, And this is what happened in abu ghrieb I believe.
And I still remember the video of the black water soldier killing people just for fun, and these soldiers are protected from questioning by any one.
Bizarre case. The founder of America's own Muslim Channel appears to be implicated in his wife's death.
A beheading.
Buffalo NY.
Of course, such a thing is a very serious crime here. Hopefully the murderer will receive serious punishment from us, before he encounters Allah and gets the final low-down.
__________________
tripleblack
"You can never be free until you let yourself go."
