[GT Dan]

Thousands of American's gave up their lives during WWII to free the French. The French were unhappy under Hitler's oppression. I guess the current French/German's believe that Sadam Hussein is a Saint and is nothing like Hitler.

To many in society forget what Hitler did. I had a professor that was a Nazi scout. When it became very apparent that Hitler was a psycho-killer, he and his mother fled Germany and came to America and rebuilt their lives. While at university I rented a basement apartment from an 80 year old german woman. I was so amazed that she was in absolute and complete denial of the horror that Hitler committed. What a contrast--one realized very completely and acted uprightly, the other went on with their life in complete denial.

I'd be willing to bet that less than 5% of all of American high school students have read Eichman in Jerusalem or anything on the Nuremburg Trials. Here's the thing I found astonishing. The Nazi guards would kill/exterminate Jews and others 5/6 days a week and on Sunday would take their family to church and worship God believing that they were good Christians.

Sadam has committed many similar documented grevious acts before the gulf war and afterwards. In America its not ok to sexually discriminate, to racially offend or do a variety of other social offenses. But just across the ocean its ok for a dictator like Sadam to kill, steal, oppress and carry on much like Hitler.

France, Germany and even some in America remind me of that family in my neighborhood as a kid whose parents would threaten and threaten and threaten their kids but never follow up on the threats of discipline. Then those same parents wondered why their kids had such discipline problems. What a mistery.

I think the information that Powel provided the other day was compelling. If the French and the Germans are supportive of a dictatorship like that of Hitler, I can no longer support any kind of product from their country.

I would encourage those with similar feelings as mine to boycott all known French and German products. The reasons are obvious.

[74stang2togo]

I agree wholeheartedly, I don't even let the fact that I'm of direct German descent(on my father's side, we've traced the family tree back all the way there, and then some).

Germany and France only oppose a war with Iraq to keep their own oil prices down. Iraq is their biggest supplier.


List of brands to start?

Volkswagen, Citroen, Blaupunkt, Daimler-Chrysler (including Dodge, Chrysler, Mercedes-Benz, Freightliner, Sterling), Ford(yep, Ford has factories in Germany.. the Focus' "European-tuned" suspension? You guessed it! German design...) GM(They own Opel)...

The list would grow to include all or part of nearly every company selling products in the US.

Good idea, just not too realistic in modern times.

[GT Dan]

I have German, French and English roots. But I am an AMERICAN.

I agree.....hybrid products are tough. Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, Volkswagon, French Wines.....there are products that are exclusively made in Europe.

I guarantee that if either Germany or France had been acted in similar 9/11 fashion that they would view this entire Sadam situation very differently.

Come to think of it, don't some european countries still owe the US some WWII debts???

[Fordgazm]

I also agree with you guys but I work for a german owned factory. So they pay my bills. But I will support the cause and not buy french or german products. I always buy usa if I can . This is why I drive a mustang and not a pos honda GOD BLESS AMERICA BABY

[83REDLX]

Originally posted by Fordgazm
But I will support the cause and not buy french or german products. I always buy usa if I can . This is why I drive a mustang and not a pos honda GOD BLESS AMERICA BABY

couldn't of said it any better

[Monkey Boy]

Screw France and Germany! As long as we've got good ole Great Britain on our side, I say we kick Iraq's ass!!

[GTRaptor]

This post can heat up a bit, and here are my 2 cents.

You Americans dont realize the potential problems that will arrise if US attacks Irak, you are not alone anymore, most countries depend on a "GLOBAL" economy and if the US attacks Irak the US will go into a recession that will kill more people around the world than war itself .
You dont live in an Island, many of countries depend on a economically strong US to survive and prosper.

There will also be more hate against US, and definately more terrorist attacks.
Yes, Saddam is a damn terrorist, but there are better ways to deal with him than create a world recession through a war.
"Dad" Bush was the first to try, but he didnt finish the job, he should have killed Saddam while he had support.
Dont blame the French or German, they lived the terrors of ww I and II in their own soil.

It is a more complex problem than just "go hunting" for Saddam.
You also have North KOREA, those guys have the capability to bring destruction into US soil, thats why Bush "changed his mind" about pushing them to abandon nuclear weapons research.

Yes, you have the pain of World Trade Center, but by going to war you will create world wide hunger, that my friends is gonna kill many million around the world....and then who do you think everyone will blame?

[kscoyote]

Originally posted by GT Dan
Thousands of American's gave up their lives during WWII to free the French. The French were unhappy under Hitler's oppression. I guess the current French/German's believe that Sadam Hussein is a Saint and is nothing like Hitler.

To many in society forget what Hitler did. I had a professor that was a Nazi scout. When it became very apparent that Hitler was a psycho-killer, he and his mother fled Germany and came to America and rebuilt their lives. While at university I rented a basement apartment from an 80 year old german woman. I was so amazed that she was in absolute and complete denial of the horror that Hitler committed. What a contrast--one realized very completely and acted uprightly, the other went on with their life in complete denial.

I'd be willing to bet that less than 5% of all of American high school students have read Eichman in Jerusalem or anything on the Nuremburg Trials. Here's the thing I found astonishing. The Nazi guards would kill/exterminate Jews and others 5/6 days a week and on Sunday would take their family to church and worship God believing that they were good Christians.

Sadam has committed many similar documented grevious acts before the gulf war and afterwards. In America its not ok to sexually discriminate, to racially offend or do a variety of other social offenses. But just across the ocean its ok for a dictator like Sadam to kill, steal, oppress and carry on much like Hitler.

France, Germany and even some in America remind me of that family in my neighborhood as a kid whose parents would threaten and threaten and threaten their kids but never follow up on the threats of discipline. Then those same parents wondered why their kids had such discipline problems. What a mistery.

I think the information that Powel provided the other day was compelling. If the French and the Germans are supportive of a dictatorship like that of Hitler, I can no longer support any kind of product from their country.

I would encourage those with similar feelings as mine to boycott all known French and German products. The reasons are obvious.

France is our oldest ally. There would be no USA without Lafayette. French Resistance was the determinig factor in WWII.

Think about it. If our position is so out there that France and Germany agree, how far are we out on a limb?

[GTRaptor]

Ah, one more thing....ask Bush where the hell is Osama Bin Laden? has the US forgot about him?
If the US attacks, Bush better finish the job.

[kscoyote]

Originally posted by GTRaptor
Ah, one more thing....ask Bush where the hell is Osama Bin Laden? has the US forgot about him?
If the US attacks, Bush better finish the job.

Indeed, Nebraska papers, Local papers, and the Southern Poverty Law Center report that White Supremacist organizations are attempting to join forces with Al Quaeda. Last week, a couple in the National Guard attempted to send information regarding U.S. WMD to White Supremacist organizations.

Elohim City, OK (populated by White Supremacists) was implicated in the Oklahoma City bombing last week, as well.

The Anthrax Attacks were carried out using a US military grade strain of the bacterium. More than likely by a military researcher with ties to South Africa, who is also a White Supremacist.

It seems we have our own problem with terrorists having access to WMD. THese people have carried out the SECOND deadliest terrorist attack in the U.S. Should we bomb the heck out of Oklahoma?

[kscoyote]

Originally posted by kscoyote
Indeed, Nebraska papers, Local papers, and the Southern Poverty Law Center report that White Supremacist organizations are attempting to join forces with Al Quaeda. Last week, a couple in the National Guard attempted to send information regarding U.S. WMD to White Supremacist organizations.

Elohim City, OK (populated by White Supremacists) was implicated in the Oklahoma City bombing last week, as well.

The Anthrax Attacks were carried out using a US military grade strain of the bacterium. More than likely by a military researcher with ties to South Africa, who is also a White Supremacist.

It seems we have our own problem with terrorists having access to WMD. THese people have carried out the SECOND deadliest terrorist attack in the U.S. Should we bomb the heck out of Oklahoma?

I wouldn't mind so much . . . Kansas State could win the championship a lot easier

[GT Dan]

Ahhhh.....did I awake the Coyote from his sleep??? I'm glad you arrived. Don't you mean that if Germany and France (dis)agree?

First, North Korea can't even successfully fly a rocket over Japan. The US will not go after NK like Sadam.

The asian countries are "economically" smart. They don't blow themselves up for religious reasons. They want a thriving economy. I have some colleagues that own property/buildings in China and even though it is communist, economically its capitalist. Everyone wants the dollar (yen or whatever) and all of the high tech toys, TV's, cars, etc. North Korea will eventually follow Japan, South Korea and want independence and economic prosperity....mark my word.

Its gonna happen in Iraq. Ya don't send troops and then do nothing. We will lose a few troops, but the high tech weapons afford the US a huge advantage. War is a risk. One has to stand up against attrocities. One takes a risk when they race their car....such is life.

Ethically no one can stand by and do nothing when a Hitler like personality runs a country. All of the same arguments were around with Hitler.

Technology will eventually find all of those that financially support terror inside and outside of our country. The mechanisms to track money, track phone calls, track data and visually track from satelites is here. It will get tougher and tougher for people to hide and the planet will get smaller and smaller.

If Mexico City were hit by an explosion like 9/11, I believe that war would have occured much sooner from those running Mexico. I have been to Mexico, lived in different areas of the world and England. The sooner Bush can set up posts and sharpen his sights and deal with this situation, the sooner we will be over the problem.

Most countries do depend on the US. But many countries are sympathetic to Muslim extremists. Ya can't have it both ways. There will be a war, so pick a side. No one likes a fence sitter.

Let me say one other thing. These tree hugging antiwar people need to think twice and be respectful of those that protect their borders and protect their rights. These men and women are heroes and are fighting for freedom.

As for Bin Laden....he's either under a pile of rocks dead or hiding under a pile for the rest of his life...he's become a snake in every sense of the word. If he is the spiritual leader that he claims he is, he would not fear death, he would not hide.

If you do not like Bush's politics, then that's fine....no prob. If you do not like the freedoms that Bush and other Americans fight to protect, then go live under a dictator. I certainly hope Bush does finish the job this time. Keep in mind its not like he's got a simple task.

[kscoyote]

BIn Laden has nothing to do with N. Korea, except he wants a theocracy there as much as anywhere else . ..

[kscoyote]

"Its gonna happen in Iraq. Ya don't send troops and then do nothing. We will lose a few troops, but the high tech weapons afford the US a huge advantage. War is a risk. One has to stand up against attrocities. One takes a risk when they race their car....such is life."

Anyone in the military will tell you urban fighting erases tech advantages.

There are a lot of military folks who thing it's a bad idea, including the Chiefs of Staff.

http://www.vaiw.org/vet/index.php

Veterans Against The Iraq War

Dear Veteran:

With the prospect of a major war looming just over the horizon, and the threats of more suffering from violence growing, the times are a changing -- for the worse!
R-Place @ R-N

If you are convinced that a U.S. invasion of Iraq is wrong, then you are confronted with a choice: You can ignore the growing crisis, dismiss it as another political conflict beyond your influence, or you can try to stop a war. You can band together with other veterans and give voice to what all of us know is wrong: a war with Iraq.

While others pontificate and theorize about war, veterans know about its realities. The present Administration is led by men and women who chose not to go into the military and today have little understanding of war and no comprehension of its consequences. They do not know what you know, or feel what you feel. For all too many of them, war is little more than an abstract exercise in geopolitics.

Whether you fought in a war, performed your duty in a support capacity or served our nation during a time of peace, it's all the same: America needs you, again! Whether you are liberal, conservative, libertarian, centrist, green or whatever -- our country needs you. Once, you put your body on the line in the service of our nation. You can now serve our nation with your experience and your wisdom.

Please read the Statement of Purpose below, if you agree with it, fill out the form and submit. There is a separate form for family members. This Statement with the list of signatories will be delivered to the White House and Congress.
Stewart Nusbaumer
Igor Bobrowsky
Jan Barry

Statement of Purpose

Veterans Against The Iraq War is a coalition of American veterans who oppose war with Iraq.

Until and unless the current U.S. Administration provides evidence which clearly demonstrates that Iraq or any other nation poses a clear, immediate danger to our country, we oppose all of the Administration's pre-emptive and unilateral military and diplomatic activities geared towards provoking or initiating a military conflict with Iraq. Furthermore, we cannot support any war that is initiated without a formal Declaration of War by Congress, as our Constitution requires.

Although we detest the dictatorial policies of Saddam Hussein and sympathize with the tragic plight of the Iraqi people, we oppose unilateral and pre-emptive U.S. military intervention on the grounds that it would establish a dangerous precedent in the conduct of international affairs, that it could easily lead to an increase of violent regional instability and the spread of a much wider conflict, that it would place needless and unacceptable financial burdens on the American people, that it would further divert us from addressing critical domestic priorities, and that it would distract us from our stated goal of destroying international terrorists and their lairs.

Furthermore, Veterans Against The Iraq War does not believe the American military can or should be used as the police-force of the world by any Administration, Republican or Democrat. Consequently, we believe that the lives and well-being of our nation's soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines should not be squandered or sacrificed for causes other than the direct defense of our people and our nation.

Finally, we believe that a pre-emptive and unilateral US military attack on Iraq would be illegal, unnecessary, counterproductive and present a truly dire threat to our vital international interests and basic national security. As military veterans, we have a unique understanding of war and know the many hidden truths that lie behind easy theories and promises, as well as behind the tragic consequences that even victory brings. We therefore call on all like-minded American veterans to join and support VAIW in its efforts to avert a national tragedy and an international calamity before it begins.

[kscoyote]

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/
http://washingtontimes.com/upi-break...0607-8252r.htm
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14067


Home » Top Stories »

Ten Reasons Why Many Gulf War Veterans Oppose Re-Invading Iraq

By Anonymous, AlterNet
September 9, 2002

With all the war fever about re-invading Iraq, the press and politicians are ignoring the opinion of the veterans of our last war in the Gulf. But we veterans were there, and we have unique and critical first-hand knowledge of the course and consequences of warfare in Iraq. Our opinions should be solicited and heard before troops deploy for battle, not after they have returned wounded, ill or in body bags.

Another invasion of Iraq in 2002 will be very different from the invasion of 1991. The war's mission has changed in the intervening years, from removing Iraq from Kuwait to removing the entire Iraqi government and military establishment from power. Because the goal of the U.S. military has changed, the Iraqi army may retreat to the cities, where they may face better odds than in the desert.

During the open desert tank battles of '91, U.S. tanks out-classed and out-fought obsolete Iraqi tanks, and U.S. infantry captured tens of thousands of poorly supplied Iraqi soldiers operating without command and control from Baghdad. But in the urban warfare scenario of 2002, pitched infantry skirmishes and ambushes in cities may present a more level battlefield for Iraqi troops fighting in their hometowns. The Iraqi military can be expected to fight for each block within each city with the most ruthless means available. When faced with the impending overrun of their nation, the Iraqi military didn't hesitate to use chemical weapons against Iran.

Because of these significant differences, here are 10 reasons why, as a Gulf War combat veteran, I oppose a second Gulf War as a costly and preventable mistake.

1. U.S. troops are vulnerable to Iraqi chemical and biological warfare agents – if Iraq is capable of using them. The gas masks, detection alarms and protection suits don't work, according to internal Department of Defense documents uncovered during investigations by the U.S. General Accounting Office. This leaves U.S. troops highly vulnerable to chemical and biological attack. U.S. chemical and biological warfare agent casualties in 2002 could be significantly higher than in 1991. Only a few months ago, the Pentagon sent out a press release stating 140,000 U.S. soldiers were exposed to low-levels chemical agents near Khamisiyah, Iraq during the Gulf War. While these soldiers appeared to return home healthy, many tens of thousands face long-term disabling medical problems that are difficult to treat.

2. Scientific evidence shows that even low-level chemical exposures are dangerous. According to a recent National Academy of Sciences report (Gulf War and Health, September 2000), low-levels of chemical warfare agents cause long-term medical problems. This conclusion is based on research resulting from the sarin attack in Japan in 1995.

3. Research shows long-term adverse side effects from mandatory vaccines given to U.S. soldiers deploying to the war zone. According to the product label insert made by BioPort in Michigan, the sole producer, the experimental anthrax vaccine has caused several deaths. The National Academy of Sciences this year concluded there are some risks to the hotly debated vaccine.

4. The Gulf War battlefield remains radioactive and toxic. Scientific research funded by the military and released two years ago links exposure to depleted uranium (DU) ammunition with cancer in rats. Solid depleted uranium bullets, ranging in size from 25mm to 120mm, are used by U.S. tanks, helicopters and planes to attack enemy tanks and armored personnel carriers. The Gulf War battlefield is already littered with more than 300 tons of radioactive dust and shrapnel from the 1991 Gulf War. Another war will only increase the radioactive and toxic contamination among U.S. soldiers. As of today, U.S. troops are not fully trained about the hazards of depleted uranium contamination, even though Congress enacted a law in 1998 requiring extensive training, especially for medical personnel.

5. Research shows long-term adverse side effects from mandatory pills given to U.S. soldiers deploying to the war zone. According to testimony before Congress (Rand Corporation, 1999), the experimental pyridostigmine bromide (PB) anti-chemical warfare agent pills "can't be ruled out" as linked to Gulf War illness. During the war, soldiers were told to take one pill every eight hours. After the chemical alarms sounded, some soldiers, out of legitimate fear for their lives, took more than the prescribed amount. To date, the long-term consequences of PB pills remain largely unknown.

6. The Iraqi civilian opposition was abandoned by U.S. troops in the first Gulf War. After U.S. troops had liberated Kuwait and conquered southern Iraq at the end of February 1991, former President George H.W. Bush encouraged the Iraqi opposition, mainly civilians, to rise up against the Iraqi dictatorship in March 1991. However, former President Bush left the rebels twisting in the wind to be ruthlessly killed by the Iraqi army's Republican Guard flying helicopters allowed by the cease-fire arranged by U.S. military and political leaders. U.S. troops in southern Iraq in March 1991 were ordered not to interfere. How can U.S. troops or Iraqi rebels be confident this won't happen again? Long oppressed by the Iraqi military, what will the civilian population do if Iraq is liberated? The American public won't support a long-term occupation and high casualties.

7. Many post-cease-fire military actions of the first Gulf War were deplorable. In March 1991, the Iraqi army was in a full route inside Iraq. Against orders, former General Barry McCaffrey slaughtered thousands of retreating Iraqi soldiers after the cease-fire (documented in the article, "Overwhelming Force," by Seymour Hersh, The New Yorker, 2000). Many U.S. soldiers returned home with serious objections about the course and consequences of such actions, including the horrific carnage of the "highway of death," littered with hundreds of destroyed cars, tanks and human remains (see "Prayer at Rumayla" by Gulf War veteran Charles Sheehan-Miles, Xlibris, 2001). Will there be another massacre of Iraqi soldiers? Will Iraqi troops slaughter U.S. soldiers in retaliation, killing U.S. prisoners or retreating U.S. soldiers? And will the press be allowed onto the battlefield to record what really happens?

8. No one has been held accountable for arming Iraq with chemical and biological weapons from 1980 to 1990. A recent news article reported that top aides for former presidents Reagan and Bush armed Iraq with these weapons during Iraq's war against Iran between 1980 and 1988 ("Officers Say U.S. Aided Iraq in War Despite Use of Gas," New York Times, Aug. 18, 2002). Some of these former George H.W. Bush aides now work for President George W. Bush. These advisors did nothing to stop the sale of the chemical agents to Iraq, did nothing to stop the use of the agents by Iraq, and did nothing to tell the world about Iraq's crimes, even when the world learned Iraq used poison gas against civilians. These top political aides have remained silent for more than 14 years, and many refused to comment on the recent news reports.

9. U.S. allies in Europe oppose invading Iraq. They have refused to supply soldiers, funding or logistical support. Some of the serious U.S. battlefield casualties from 1991 were sent to U.S. military hospitals in Germany. Where will our casualties be flown to for emergency care if Germany follows through on its policy to remain neutral and not allow the use of German airspace? This contrasts sharply with the more than 30 nations allied with the U.S. during Desert Storm in 1991. Today, the U.S. has no Arab allies. In 1991, the U.S. forgave billions in outstanding loans owed by Egypt to buy its support. Now Egypt and other Middle Eastern nations oppose a second invasion of Iraq. If something goes wrong, where will U.S. troops retreat if Saudi Arabia won't allow U.S. troops within its borders? We must avoid another Gallipoli.

10. The Department of Veterans Affairs will not be able to care for additional casualties because VA can't even take care of current VA patients. Most veterans now wait six months to see a VA doctor, and most veterans wait more than six months to receive a decision on a VA disability claim. Many of those waiting in line are Gulf War veterans, many with unusual illnesses. According to VA, of the nearly 700,000 veterans who served in Desert Shield and Desert Storm, more than 300,000 have sought VA healthcare, and more than 200,000 have filed VA disability claims. Two weeks ago, President Bush slashed $275 million from the healthcare budget of the Department of Veterans Affairs.

Although the Iraqi government is a corrupt dictatorship that must eventually be removed, current proposals to remove the government by deploying hundreds of thousands of U.S. troops are deeply flawed. A premature attack against Iraq, especially when the public opposes it, would be a horrible mistake. Since 1990, more than 400 U.S. soldiers have died in the Gulf War theater of operations. Untold hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, both soldiers and civilians, also died. A second invasion of Iraq for one man is not worth one more life; let's use common sense and avert a second Gulf War.

The author is a Gulf War combat veteran.