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Old 08-22-2008   #1 (permalink)
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Any Suggestions? E85 Ethanol Myths!

E85 Ethanol Myths

1. E85 Ethanol is corrosive

Yes ethanol is corrosive, but not very much. Gasoline is corrosive too. Ethanol is biodegradable in water. So it has a tendency to contain and attract water. It is not the corrosive properties of ethanol that can cause damage to your vehicle; it is the water which can rust a vehicle’s fuel system from the inside out. Today’s vehicles (since mid 1980s) have fuel systems which are made to withstand corrosive motor fuels and rust from water. Also today’s distilling processes are superior to way back when. We now have better techniques for drying out ethanol or reducing the water content.

On side note, gas contains water too. Ever hear of dry gas?

2. If I put E85 in my gas tank, it will eat it away.

If your car was built in the old days, it was had a lead coated, steel tank. The water in ethanol would cause the tank to rust from the inside out. The government mandated that all gas in the USA contain 10% ethanol to help reduce tail pipe emissions. In the 1980s, automakers made vehicles with fuel systems to be ethanol and rust tolerant. Gas tanks began to contain polymers and Teflon which are extremely durable.

3. If I put E85 ethanol in my non-Flex Fuel vehicle, it will ruin it.

One tank won’t hurt. Some dealers are spreading rumors and charging $300-$3000 for one tank of accidental E85 use. This use may cause misfiring and a rough ride. Your check engine light will come on. If you should accidentally or on purpose put E85 in your vehicle, drain the tank, put in regular gas and all will be well. If you use E85 without a conversion kit or non-Flex Fuel capable vehicle for an extended period, you can damage your engine.

4. Ethanol will burn up my engine.

Ethanol has a lower ignition point than gas. Ethanol has about 115 octane and E85 has 105 octane. It burns cooler and will extend engine life by preventing the burning of engine valves and prevent the build-up of olefins in fuel injectors, keeping the fuel system cleaner.

5. Ethanol will ruin gaskets, seals, rings and more.

Running 100% ethanol or alcohol in an engine can cause damage to cork products.

The rubber neoprene used in the last 20 + years is resistant to the drying effect that ethanol may have.

Today's vehicles are built to withstand the corrosive effects of water in ethanol and gasoline. Any vehicle built since 1985 will have no ethanol related issues. Older vehicles that used more steel in the fuel systems or cork gaskets may have issues from long term exposure to water.

Vehicles in Brazil have been using ethanol for 30 years and they are completely free from using any foreign oil.

6. E85 will eat my rubber fuel lines.

This is another myth from the old days. Rubber technology has significantly advanced so the concerns of a 20 year old car or newer having issues like this are extremely rare. Plus the 15% gas will help keep lines lubricated.

7. E85 will destroy my fuel pump.

E85 won’t destroy your fuel pump. If you convert a high mileage vehicle to Flex Fuel, the E85 will cause the sediment in the gas tank to dissolve and then get sucked up by the fuel pump. It is believed that this sediment may shorten the life of the pump of your higher mileage vehicle (100,000+). We have had no reports from customers with damaged fuel pumps.

Video Proof: E85 does not harm engine, fuel lines, fuel pump, injectors, etc.

Video ---> http://www.youtube.com/v/HuOs1yap8mU

We do not recommend using E85 in your vehicle without an E85 conversion kit.

8. It takes more than a gallon of energy to make a gallon of E85.

This was true at one point in time. Today’s advanced technology and distilling processes actually create considerably more units of ethanol than units of energy used. The processes continue to advance and the ratio will continue to increase.

9. E85 Ethanol is worse for the environment than gas.

There have been some people who have published reports stating that E85 is worse than gas for the environment. They have yet to show any scientific proof or case studies that support their claims. Because E85 is cleaner than conventional gasoline, it emits less hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide and hydrogen. E85 reduces carbon monoxide emissions by as much as 70 percent — and less carbon monoxide helps reduce ozone formation and greenhouse gas levels. According to EPA, gasoline is the largest source of manmade carcinogens. Ethanol reduces overall toxic pollution by diluting harmful compounds found in gasoline such as benzene and other aromatics.

10. Using E85 ethanol will get 50% less mileage per tank.

There are some stories floating around about 50% reduction in mileage or twice as much ethanol is needed. Some of the automakers who introduced Flex vehicles did a terrible job with the fuel management systems that mileage did decrease as much as 50%. After some trial and error, the automakers have significantly improved their Flex systems and mileage conservation is within reasonable losses such as 5-15%. Conversion Kits like the Full Flex have been around for over 20 years. Realistic losses range from 5-15% as well.

11. Vehicles need more E85 ethanol so there is less power.

It is true that a vehicle does require more E85 than regular gas since the amount of energy per unit of ethanol is less than that of gas. Ethanol has a lower ignition temperature so the engine overall will run cooler increasing power. It also burns slower so instead of just burning out in one violent explosion forcing the piston down, it continues to burn the entire length of the piston stroke expanding gases more evenly and smoothly. So running E85 will give any engine more power over any pump gas. Also E85 is 105 octane. Gas comes in 85, 89 and 91 octane. The 105 octane of E85 will help to eliminate knocks and pings. All of these benefits will make an engine run smoother and quieter.

12. Won't E85 production deplete human and animal food supplies?

No, actually the production of ethanol from corn uses only the starch of the corn kernel, all of the valuable protein, minerals and nutrients remain. One bushel of corn produces about 2.7 gallons of ethanol AND 11.4 pounds of gluten feed (20% protein) AND 3 pounds of gluten meal (60% protein) AND 1.6 pounds of corn oil.

13. Ethanol does not benefit farmers.

The ethanol industry opens a new market for corn growers, allowing them to enjoy greater profitability. Studies have shown that corn prices in areas near ethanol plants tend to be 5 to 10 cents per bushel higher than in other areas. This additional income helps cut the costs of farm programs and add vitality to rural economies. The additional profit potential for farmers created by ethanol production allows more farmers to stay in business — helping ensure adequate food supplies in the future. Ethanol production also creates jobs, many of which are in rural communities where good jobs are hard to come by. A 2005 study by LECG found the ethanol industry powered the U.S. economy by creating more than 147,000 jobs, boosting U.S. household income by $4.4 billion and reducing the U.S. trade deficit by $5.1 billion by eliminating the need to import 143.3 million barrels of oil. Those kinds of numbers help farmers and all Americans.

14. Ethanol production wastes corn that could be used to feed a hungry world.

Corn used for ethanol production is field corn typically used to feed livestock. Wet mill ethanol production facilities, also known as corn refineries, also produce starch, corn sweeteners, and corn oil — all products that are used as food ingredients for human consumption. Ethanol production also results in the production of distiller’s grains and gluten feed — both of which are fed to livestock, helping produce high-quality meat products for distribution domestically and abroad. There is no shortage of corn. In 2004, U.S. farmers produced a record 11.8 billion bushel corn harvest — and some 1.3 billion bushels (about 11 percent) were used in ethanol production. Additionally, the 2005 crop was among the largest on record. 2007 will yield the largest corn crop since the 1940s. In other words, there is still room to significantly grow the ethanol market without limiting the availability of corn. Steadily increasing corn yields and the improved ability of other nations to grow corn also make it clear that ethanol production can continue to grow without affecting the food supply.

http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/Page?template=Myths
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Old 08-22-2008   #2 (permalink)
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So are we talking about E85 or the 10% ethonal gas? And on what vehicles?

Because I have seen what this new 10% ethonal can do to parts, especially carburetors. This stuff eats up plastic and rubber. It does reduce your mileage on a vehicle that is not set up to run ethonol (I've tested this on my mustang and 2 different year Mazda Protege's). If this stuff reduces your gas even by 2-5 MPG then your using more which doesn't help the pollution factor. This 10% gasohol (or whatever you wanna call it) is not good stuff. Not to mention, it makes your car run sluggish.
I'm not bashing on you bro. I'm just stating my results from that stuff.
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Old 08-24-2008   #3 (permalink)
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When I first got my Mustang I went to the same gas station that I always had just after they were bought out and renamed. I didn't know it but the new company was using 10% ethanol in their fuels. After 2 months my cats were clogged and my mileage was in the toilet. The alcohol was going right through without getting burned. You could smell it in the exhaust. Got a 91 bama tune and switched gas stations and blew and burnt all the crap out of my cats with several wot runs and now everything is fine. I now avoid stations that have ethanol blends like the plague. I can't imagine how much worse E85 would be.

If the gov't would stop subsidizing ethanol production with everyone's tax money and let the free market handle it, ethanol blends would disappear within 6 months because it isn't as good as gasoline and without the subsidies it wouldn't pay to manufacture it.

Ethanol is also a big chunk of the higher food prices. A memo from the World Banks was leaked a couple months ago showing that is was a major contributing factor to the higher food prices.
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Old 08-25-2008   #4 (permalink)
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I'm in no rush to buy a flex fuel vehicle or use E85 - - - even one tank full.

I dont care if today the mileage loss is 5-15% compared to 50% years ago, its still too much of a loss in fuel economy.

5-15% is significant and I dont know who in their right mind would say that a 5-15% reduction in mileage is "reasonable". Do you tink the automakers will attain the more stringent CAFE standard in 2012 with a fleet of Flex Fuel vehicles running on E-85? Maybe when someone drops the price of E-85 by 15% to make up the difference I'll consider it.
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Old 08-25-2008   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ONEZ ST View Post
I'm in no rush to buy a flex fuel vehicle or use E85 - - - even one tank full.

I dont care if today the mileage loss is 5-15% compared to 50% years ago, its still too much of a loss in fuel economy.

5-15% is significant and I dont know who in their right mind would say that a 5-15% reduction in mileage is "reasonable". Do you tink the automakers will attain the more stringent CAFE standard in 2012 with a fleet of Flex Fuel vehicles running on E-85? Maybe when someone drops the price of E-85 by 15% to make up the difference I'll consider it.

here in northern Colorado, E-85 is 2.70 or so. E-10 (regular gas) is 3.40. 15% decrease in mileage is still money ahead.....

i figure miles per dollar these days. a depressing number to be sure..
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Old 08-25-2008   #6 (permalink)
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here in northern Colorado, E-85 is 2.70 or so. E-10 (regular gas) is 3.40. 15% decrease in mileage is still money ahead.....

i figure miles per dollar these days. a depressing number to be sure..
Over here on the Western Slope E-85 is $3.50-$3.70 a gallon and E-10 costs the same as real gasoline.

Of course, there's only something like 4-6 stations in the Western half of the state selling E-85 too.
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Old 08-25-2008   #7 (permalink)
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i ran about 2 gal and 15 gal of regular gas in my f-150, the truck had less power, and ran like hell..

i dont recommend it..
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Old 08-25-2008   #8 (permalink)
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In your case and location you are right.

Let me point out that I didnt say they need to drop E-85 by 15% compared to average gas. The national average price spread is 17%. I said they need to drop the price of E-85 15%. I bet your local E-85 price is below the both the national average spread and national average price.

According to AAA www.fuelgaugereport.com dated 8/25/08 the national average for E-85 is $3.20, while you say you pay $2.70. If you open the link take note of the MPG/BTU adjusted price which is explained in detail in the chart.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BBFcapri View Post
here in northern Colorado, E-85 is 2.70 or so. E-10 (regular gas) is 3.40. 15% decrease in mileage is still money ahead.....

i figure miles per dollar these days. a depressing number to be sure..
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Old 08-26-2008   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ONEZ ST View Post
In your case and location you are right.

Let me point out that I didnt say they need to drop E-85 by 15% compared to average gas. The national average price spread is 17%. I said they need to drop the price of E-85 15%. I bet your local E-85 price is below the both the national average spread and national average price.

According to AAA www.fuelgaugereport.com dated 8/25/08 the national average for E-85 is $3.20, while you say you pay $2.70. If you open the link take note of the MPG/BTU adjusted price which is explained in detail in the chart.
Excellent link!
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Old 08-26-2008   #10 (permalink)
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there is alot wrong with e-85, i agree. and getting gas with no alcohol is getting harder. the shell station i was getting 100% petroleum cloased a few weeks back.

but the post about the government subsidy for E-85 hit the mark. if the market will not support it there is a reason.

but you have to admit, cheap 106 octane is pretty cool. if you run high compression. they add 10% alcohol to "oxygenate" gas. Air Quality Program-Oxygenated Fuels (this link is just to show where the term "oxygenated" comes from. the rest of the page looks like "sheeple B.S." to me)

and if your computer is not programmed for this then i am sure the O2 sensor is wreaking havoc on the fuel map in the efi. that would explain why it is running like hell.
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Last edited by BBFcapri; 08-26-2008 at 08:55 AM. Reason: add info
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Old 08-26-2008   #11 (permalink)
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The data posted in the OP is largely accurate, but the predicted results ASSUME the purchase of the $500+ ethanol kit the source site is selling.

This sort of marketing information has been around a long time.

Also, ethanol was part of the fuel mix long before the recent labeling, so its likely that most of us have been (and ARE, assuming the pump labeling is still incomplete and spotty) using 5-10% ethanol gas for a long time now.

Ethanol is being used by a lot of state EPAs to substitute for highly carcinogenous additives that are now being phased out. There is research ongoing to look for additional choices, but the ethanol is the near-universal pick right now for that purpose.

The percentages will vary wildly from state to state because of the insistance of the State EPA's all acting like they are in some bunker mentality and want to defend their "turf". Hence the proliferation of dozens of different "recipes".

All this serves to raise prices, of course, if only from sheer inefficiency and PITA rules that have more to do with ego than ecology.
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Old 08-26-2008   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
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but you have to admit, cheap 106 octane is pretty cool.
Yeah, but it's not really 106 octane fuel. The BTU's are a lot less than real high octane fuel so if you adjusted the timing to take advantage of the 106 you'd still get your rearend handed to you by someone running real high octane in their tank. It's NOT the same stuff you can get at the airports.
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Old 08-26-2008   #13 (permalink)
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ya down in my area sw florida most if not all have 10% ethanol blend already and gas is still 375 for reg
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Old 08-31-2008   #14 (permalink)
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I am looking into converting my SN95 into E85.
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Old 08-31-2008   #15 (permalink)
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I am looking into converting my SN95 into E85.
Even after seeing the data showing that you get fewer mpg and power and it's more expensive to use? Why not just trade it in and get a Ford Escort or a Hyundai then?
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