[kscoyote]

Read this from the best minds in the military, the Strategic Studies Institute (if you care anything about the military and the war on terrorism, if not, keep listening to Bush and don't worry about it . . .:

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/ssi/pub...g/bounding.pdf

[Gooch]

Your political affiliation is showing KS...

[kscoyote]

Originally posted by Gooch
Your political affiliation is showing KS...

Mine or the Army's?

You can't have read it this quickly . . .

PErhaps it's yours that's showing . .. I'm an Indy.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Gooch
Your political affiliation is showing KS...

This is true.

And that is fine…. everyone it entitled to their own beliefs and preferences.

I will have to say though that BUSH does not run the show as much as folks think he does. And he did not on his own do ANYTHING, our government is not set up that way.

But hey, I openly admit it is easier to blame one guy, than to admit that our GOVERNMENT made some decisions.

[hmarv347]

election year for sure..here we go again.

[Jimbo12]

that had to be the longest time i have ever read one thing for a consistant amount of time! that article really elaborated on many things, and even though i am 16 i still know and understand what is going on right now...the one thing i hope people dont give bush the credit for is "finding saddam" he technically didnt "find saddam" it was the intellegance of the USA...they are the ones who put the troops out there, they are the ones who give them the heads up, the intellegance will stay the same no matter who the president is...more people need to realize this

[kscoyote]

Originally posted by Jimbo12
that had to be the longest time i have ever read one thing for a consistant amount of time! that article really elaborated on many things, and even though i am 16 i still know and understand what is going on right now...the one thing i hope people dont give bush the credit for is "finding saddam" he technically didnt "find saddam" it was the intellegance of the USA...they are the ones who put the troops out there, they are the ones who give them the heads up, the intellegance will stay the same no matter who the president is...more people need to realize this

Actually, it was Kurdish soldiers and Saddam's ex-wife (avoid getting ex's mad at ya' ) who found and reported him. The Kurds held the territory until Special Forces came in. If you go to the BBC website you can get all the details.

[Jimbo12]

REALLY! wow, talk about a bitter divorce there!

[Cobra2k1]

I don't really have a political affiliation example I liked Reagan & Clinton and have disliked both the Bushes.

However, I found this on the net and thought it was pretty funny

RESUME

George W. Bush
The White House, USA


EDUCATION AND EXPERIENCE:
LAW ENFORCEMENT:

I was arrested in Kennebunkport, Maine, in 1976 for driving under the
influence of alcohol. I pled guilty, paid a fine, and had my driver's
license suspended for 30 days.

My Texas driving record has been "lost" and is not available.

MILITARY:

I joined the Texas Air National Guard and went AWOL. I refused to take a drug test or answer any questions about my drug use.

By joining the Texas Air National Guard, I was able to avoid combat duty in Vietnam.

COLLEGE:

I graduated from Yale University with a low C average.

I was a cheerleader.


PAST WORK EXPERIENCE:

I ran for U.S. Congress and lost.

I began my career in the oil business in Midland, Texas, in 1975. I bought an oil company, but couldn't find any oil in Texas. The company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock.

I bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land using taxpayer money.

With the help of my father and our right-wing friends in the oil industry (including Enron CEO Ken Lay), I was elected governor of Texas.

ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS GOVERNOR OF TEXAS:

I changed Texas pollution laws to favor power and oil companies, making Texas the most polluted state in the Union.

During my tenure, Houston replaced Los Angeles as the most smog-ridden city in America.

I cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas treasury to the tune of billions in borrowed money.

I set the record for the most executions by any governor in American history.

With the help of my brother, the governor of Florida, and my father's appointments to the Supreme Court, I became President after losing by over 500,000 votes.

ACCOMPLISHMENTS AS PRESIDENT:

I am the first President in U.S. history to enter office with a criminal record.

I invaded and occupied two countries at a continuing cost of over one billion dollars per week.

I spent the U.S. surplus and effectively bankrupted the U.S. Treasury.

I shattered the record for the largest annual deficit in U.S. history.

I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12-month period.

I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period.

I set the all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the U.S.
stock market.

In my first year in office, over 2 million Americans lost their jobs and that trend continues every month.

I'm proud that the members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in U.S. history. My "poorest millionaire," Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named
after her.

I set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips by a U.S. President.

I am the all-time U.S. and world record-holder for receiving the most corporate campaign donations.

My largest lifetime campaign contributor, and one of my best friends, Kenneth Lay, presided over the largest corporate bankruptcy fraud in U.S. History, Enron.

My political party used Enron private jets and corporate attorneys to assure my success with the U.S. Supreme Court during my election decision.

I have protected my friends at Enron and Halliburton against investigation or prosecution. More time and money was spent investigating the Monica Lewinsky affair than has been spent investigating one of the biggest corporate rip-offs in history.

I presided over the biggest energy crisis in U.S. history and refused to intervene when corruption involving the oil industry was revealed.

I presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S. history.

I changed the U.S. policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.

I appointed more convicted criminals to administration than any President in U.S. history.

I created the Ministry of Homeland Security, the largest bureaucracy in the history of the United States government.

I've broken more international treaties than any President in U.S. history.

I am the first President in U.S. history to have the United Nations remove the U.S. from the Human Rights Commission.

I withdrew the U.S. from the World Court of Law.

I refused to allow inspectors access to U.S. "prisoners of war" detainees and thereby have refused to abide by the Geneva Convention.

I am the first President in history to refuse United Nations election inspectors (during the 2002 U.S. election).

I set the record for fewest number of press conferences of any President since the advent of television.

I set the the all-time record for most days on vacation in any one-year period.

After taking off the entire month of August, I presided over the worst security failure in U.S. history.

I garnered the most sympathy for the U.S. after the World Trade Center attacks and less than a year later made the U.S. the most hated country in the world, the largest failure of diplomacy in world history.

I have set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously protest me in public venues (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person
in the history of mankind.

I am the first President in U.S. history to order an unprovoked, pre-emptive attack and the military occupation of a sovereign nation. I did so against the will of the United Nations, the majority of U.S. citizens, and the world community.

I have cut health care benefits for war veterans and support a cut in duty benefits for active duty troops and their families -- in war time.

In my State of the Union Address, I lied about our reasons for attacking Iraq, then blamed the lies on our British friends.

I am the first President in history to have a majority of Europeans (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and security.

I am supporting development of a nuclear "Tactical Bunker Buster," a WMD.

I have so far failed to fulfill my pledge to bring Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein to justice.


RECORDS AND REFERENCES:

All records of my tenure as governor of Texas are now in my father's library, sealed and unavailable for public view.

All records of SEC investigations into my insider trading and my bankrupt companies are sealed insecrecy and unavailable for public view.

All records or minutes from meetings that I, or my Vice-President, attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review.


PLEASE CONSIDER MY EXPERIENCE WHEN VOTING IN 2004.

[Cobra2k1]

Oh btw I just thought the above was funny I have no idea how much (if any) of it is true

[kscoyote]

It's all true . . .

If if were CLinton, everyone's shorts would be in a bunch . . .

[95MGTS]

As stated at the beginning of the paper, this work reflects the opinions of the author, not the policy of the US Army or the US Government. I am still reading through it but it definitely smells of a one sided opinion. I am a Navy pilot who flew over 300+ hours in support of OEF, have sat in on intell briefs prior to OIF that were very much so eye raising, as well as being of the opinion that the current operation in Iraq is just, especially after 9/11.

As for the above info on the President, please, propaganda for those against this administration. It works both ways, since I've seen the same sort of thing laid out for former President Clinton. Actually, some of the same info was used for the Clinton one. Those things are used by the common haters with nothing but contempt for the current or former administration.

For the young 16 year old, what you must understand is the President is the CiC, the boss. He should take responsibility for the success and failure of our military. It doesn't matter how we caught Sadam Hussein, the fact is we caught him, and the President takes the glory. When 9/11 occurred, I remember hearing a lot of bickering about who's fault it was. The blame was often laid in President Clinton's lap for his continual cutting of funding to the intell community. You know what, it doesn't matter what the former President did or did not do, President Bush was in charge at the time and thus responsible. As leader, you must accept responsiblitly, be accountable, and then carry on. That's what I like about the current President. He made his decision, stuck to his guns, and we are now carrying it out.

[kscoyote]

Originally posted by 95MGTS
[b]As stated at the beginning of the paper, this work reflects the opinions of the author, not the policy of the US Army or the US Government. I am still reading through it but it definitely smells of a one sided opinion. I am a Navy pilot who flew over 300+ hours in support of OEF, have sat in on intell briefs prior to OIF that were very much so eye raising, as well as being of the opinion that the current operation in Iraq is just, especially after 9/11.

IT was published by the SSI of the Army War College -Meaning it had to get approval and have it's facts checked by the SSI itself

It's not an internet chat room, sir.

As for the above info on the President, please, propaganda for those against this administration. It works both ways, since I've seen the same sort of thing laid out for former President Clinton. Actually, some of the same info was used for the Clinton one. Those things are used by the common haters with nothing but contempt for the current or former administration.

Again consider the sources - Rush, what's his neame with the ridiculous hat, and a buch of testimony bought by Scaife, versus the SSI of the Army war college.

For the young 16 year old, what you must understand is the President is the CiC, the boss.

the President is the CiC of the Armed Forces, but he is a Civilian Civil Servant. We are HIS bosses, and as such, it is OUR responsibility to investigate and hold him accountable for his actions. To live otherwise is to live in a totalaritan society. Exactly what our forefathers rebelled against more than 200 years ago.


Bush is no king.

He should take responsibility for the success and failure of our military. It doesn't matter how we caught Sadam Hussein, the fact is we caught him, and the President takes the glory.

He should also take responsibility for pulling ridiculous stunts, lying to the public ("I just read the speech, it was cleared by so-and-so, etc.")

He should take responsibility for outing a NOC and bring the person to justice.

He should say what he's going to do and then do it, instead of telling his subordinates to do the opposite of what he says. (where's all the 9/11 preparation grants for state and local first responders?)

When 9/11 occurred, I remember hearing a lot of bickering about who's fault it was. The blame was often laid in President Clinton's lap for his continual cutting of funding to the intell community. You know what, it doesn't matter what the former President did or did not do, President Bush was in charge at the time and thus responsible. As leader, you must accept responsiblitly, be accountable, and then carry on.

Agreed! Let's see him do it!

Being a leader also means admitting mistakes, and being honest with the people you're responsible for. It meansmaking decisions for the WHOLE country, not just yourself, your friends, or supporters. It means doing more than filming stunts and photo ops that make you out to be something you're not (rather like Dukakis), and it means being willing to sacrifice for your country, not deliver it to special interests. And, it means following the advice of people other than your friends.

When I see this in Bush I'll support him. Anyone can pose and act tough. Where I come from it's called "all hat and no cattle. "

[95MGTS]

I understand the fact that it came from SSI but it's still an opinion paper, not the official policy of the US Army. Just because the Army said yes, print it, doesn't mean anything. If you don't believe me, call the War College. I believe they are in Georgia.

So you understand kyote, I have no objection to this paper, it's a free country. It's still based on an opinion of the situation. I also have no issue with holding a President accountabile for any action he takes. He is the leader and like I said, responsible for the actions of this administation and the nation.

Our definition of leadership is obviously different. During wartime, such as after 9/11, the President has an obligation to keep this country safe. What I look for is someone who is decisive, stands by his decision, doesn't back down, doesn't take polls to determine what's best, etc. Making what is considered by him the right decision isn't always going to be popular but he isn't in the Oval Office to make friends. Sorry but it's not time to be soft and worry about people's feelings. The kinder and gentler leader definitely went out the window after 9/11.

I assume the photo ops you are referring to are the carrier landing and Thanksgiving diner visit. Did you have any friends onboard the USS Lincoln (I believe that was the ship)? I did, well at least in a few of the squadrons onboard. That one trip was a huge moral booster to the troops. Huge. It demonstrates to them that he actually cares. I fly off carriers for a living and there is an inherent danger involved. The President chose the most dangerous way to get to the boat to demonstrate his support. It doesn't really matter if the photo op was part of the deal, it meant something to the troops. Same goes with his visit to Iraq. The moral boost is huge. That's leadership by example.

Again, what I'm sensing here is not so much a dislike for the current policy from you. I haven't heard much from you except this paper, stating the BS above was all true, and in another thread, you questioned the integrity of anyone supporting this administration. I can respect those who disagree but do so for valid reasons. Like hey, I can't stand American soldiers dying for reason A, B, and C. I believe the President is wrong in this situation because of A, B, and C. Of course these would be arguements done without bashing the President. Remember, disagreeing is different than bashing. Now your reason seems to lie on one thing, a dislike for the President. It's almost like you are angry that he is the President and because of that, you will not support him. Fine brother, it's a free country. I'm not going change your mind. IMO, it is kind of a childish way of looking at things though. You see, I support this President not because I'm military, but I believe the cause is just. Hell, I didn't even vote for him. If 9/11 had not happened, I don't know if I would feel the same but we could play the what if games all day long. What I do know is we are in Iraq and Afghanistan, have a mission to do, and we need the leadership to back it up. That means not a pansy or touchy feely guy but from a guy that I like to refer to where I come from, has balls that clank.

[kscoyote]

Originally posted by 95MGTS
I understand the fact that it came from SSI but it's still an opinion paper, not the official policy of the US Army. Just because the Army said yes, print it, doesn't mean anything. If you don't believe me, call the War College. I believe they are in Georgia.

So you understand kyote, I have no objection to this paper, it's a free country. It's still based on an opinion of the situation. I also have no issue with holding a President accountabile for any action he takes. He is the leader and like I said, responsible for the actions of this administation and the nation.

Our definition of leadership is obviously different. During wartime, such as after 9/11, the President has an obligation to keep this country safe. What I look for is someone who is decisive, stands by his decision, doesn't back down, doesn't take polls to determine what's best, etc. Making what is considered by him the right decision isn't always going to be popular but he isn't in the Oval Office to make friends. Sorry but it's not time to be soft and worry about people's feelings. The kinder and gentler leader definitely went out the window after 9/11.

I assume the photo ops you are referring to are the carrier landing and Thanksgiving diner visit. Did you have any friends onboard the USS Lincoln (I believe that was the ship)? I did, well at least in a few of the squadrons onboard. That one trip was a huge moral booster to the troops. Huge. It demonstrates to them that he actually cares. I fly off carriers for a living and there is an inherent danger involved. The President chose the most dangerous way to get to the boat to demonstrate his support. It doesn't really matter if the photo op was part of the deal, it meant something to the troops. Same goes with his visit to Iraq. The moral boost is huge. That's leadership by example.

Again, what I'm sensing here is not so much a dislike for the current policy from you. I haven't heard much from you except this paper, stating the BS above was all true, and in another thread, you questioned the integrity of anyone supporting this administration. I can respect those who disagree but do so for valid reasons. Like hey, I can't stand American soldiers dying for reason A, B, and C. I believe the President is wrong in this situation because of A, B, and C. Of course these would be arguements done without bashing the President. Remember, disagreeing is different than bashing. Now your reason seems to lie on one thing, a dislike for the President. It's almost like you are angry that he is the President and because of that, you will not support him. Fine brother, it's a free country. I'm not going change your mind. IMO, it is kind of a childish way of looking at things though. You see, I support this President not because I'm military, but I believe the cause is just. Hell, I didn't even vote for him. If 9/11 had not happened, I don't know if I would feel the same but we could play the what if games all day long. What I do know is we are in Iraq and Afghanistan, have a mission to do, and we need the leadership to back it up. That means not a pansy or touchy feely guy but from a guy that I like to refer to where I come from, has balls that clank.

I tell you what. You try to write a paper and get it published in the SSI. I guarantee you'll find it's more than an opinion.

The Army cannot have an "opinion" per se. The Army's official opinion is that of the Commander in Chief, no matter who that is.

You don't believe he takes polls? Why, then, do you think he justified his invasion with a pack of lies? If he had balls, he should have said, "I know you all think we need a good reason to justify war and American lives, but I'm going anyway, because I dislike Hussein, my father's taking a beating from the right wing of our party, and we have a number of interests in the country."

He wouldn't have even needed to mention that almost all the interests were oil and gas.

I know there is inherent danger in flying on and off aircraft carriers. but the carrier was 30 minutes off port near San Diego. C'mon - it was a photo-op stunt. IF he doesn't care about peoples feelings, why do it? Why commission a bunch of dolls to make himself more popular?

He's not G.I.Joe. When he had the chance to fly on and off aircraft carriers during the Vietnam War, he chose to go AWOL.

That stuff doesn't take balls, all it takes is ambition.