[Mana4Real]

Well said SxrpGT and found50... But lets try to keep this at a debate level... No shots at each other guys.

[sxrpGT]

I am still trying to find the article on it. There are over 2000 related cases in the news data bank. Plus you know how the news is say it once and catch your attention and then never tell you anymore about it. Give me some time and HOPEFULLY I will find something.
Mana4Real good point I couldnt agree more.

Drew

[shartley]

I will add that most of you clearly don’t know the law nor how things really work. I don’t say this as an insult, but to point out that what I see are emotional responses to something that folks just don’t understand.

With that said…. If me and 4 pals of mine rob a bank, but I only drive the car, and someone in the bank gets shot and dies….. what do you think I will be charged with?

But I didn’t pull the trigger right? I didn’t kill anyone, right?

When someone dies as a consequence of committing a crime, in most cases someone will be automatically charged with one of several degrees of murder, manslaughter, homicide, etc.. They don’t have to be the one who actually killed someone, nor in fact be personally involved in the death itself.

And with THAT said, just being charged with something does not mean they will even make it to trial. If anyone here (aside from county) knows anything about how people are “charged”, they will understand that “charges” are a starting point for the process, not the end of it. Most times the beginning charges include every possibility imaginable, and then the DA looks them all over and tosses out the ones he/she feels will not “stick”, or will not be worth the taxpayers’ money to go forward with.

For instance, my younger brother served time in prison (yeah, a cops brother… I let him know my thoughts on that one.) and when he was initially charged, he faced about a dozen or so different charges. What he was tried for was 3. What he was convicted of was 2.

And this is quite common. It is how the system works.

This kid will have his day in court (if it even goes that far), and THAT is what matters. Not that he was charged with something.

My views on this case from what I have read here? Charge him. He deserves it. And then let the jury determine the outcome.

[sxrpGT]

its not that he might be charged with homicied it is HE WILL be charged with homicide. As far as the bank robbery scenario goes everyone in that car made a effort to rob that bank even if you are just the getaway driver you aided a crime you were part of it, somewhere in your mind you knew someone might get hurt or even killed but you still decided to go rob the bank.

I personally dont think he should be charged with homicide. Racing, excessive speeding, reckless driving yes. Homicide no. I mean I could goet on a twisty as road and just push my car as fast and as hard as it will go, if I lose control and hit a car on the side of the road( now remember just me driving fast no one else) and I die as a result from my injuries who is to blame? ME and only ME. It was my choice no one said driving like a maniac or else something bad will happen to you if you dont. But you know what somebody out there will want to blame Ford for making the Mustang capable of those speeds. some body will want to blame the people who sold me the aftermarket parts that made my car go faster than it Ford did. Some body out there will want to blame the guy who parked his car out on the side of the road. But no one and i mean no one will wnat to point the finger at me first , why? Because no one can accept that somebody died as a result of their own choices.

I dont think the kid should be blamed for killing someone. He did not have any part of it as I said earlier He WITNESSED a death. That would be like me driving next to somebody and I look over right as they slam into a telephone pole. So trying to see if anyone survived I stop get out call 911 and get to the car to realize the driver is dead. Should I be held responsible for having witnessed that persons death? All i was doing was driving and i looked over and they hit a pole their fault but they wont be blamed. You know I would be heavily questioned about if we were racing and why would he just swerve off the road and hit a pole? People need to stop beiong so quick to blame others blame yourself for your own intelligent choices or lack there of.

You said that is how the system works well the system is totally f@#%$*. The system isnt working like it should. When I went to court for my tiicket the guy in front of me was there for his @nd DUI charge. The judge lowered his fine and said have a nice day. Me I got the shaft. I almost lost my license had to pay a larger fine than the damn DUI offender and had to argue why I shouldnt lose my license. Yeah I was speeding and I got cuaght let me pay the fine I wasnt even going fast enough tolose my license but they damn sure wnated it. However the DUI guy keepsd his and keeps a little extra money in his pocket while i get robbed??? WTF He should be wearing a damn community service jump suit and riding the bus not sitting behind the wheel. Thats the system for you.

The system again failed when my mom was hit by a semi truck . I was in the car with her we were in a parking lot and he pulled up next to us and he came out of the store and he got in his truck and took off and in the process caught the front end of my moms honda under his passenger door and spun us around almost 90*. He then backed up swung wider and took off. He knew he hit something but he didnt stop. I chased him through the parking lot beating on his door and he still didnt stop. I got his DOT number and company info and we called the cops. We gave the cops the info and a few days later we get a call saying that there is nothing they can do. IT WAS A DAMN HIT AND RUN and there is nothing you can do ??? !! The trucking company wouldnt pay for the damage.

Thats our system at work for you. Cant do anything about a hit and run but hey if I throw a banana peel out the window I am gonna get a ticket by god cuz thats illegal.

[shartley]

I think you either didn’t actually read my post, or you chose to ignore what I said.

Please go back and read it again.

I am through with this for obvious reasons.

(Note: I only read some of your post…. If you used paragraphs and such it would probably been read in its entirety. But from what I read, you clearly don’t understand the law.)

[sxrpGT]

I read what you said if you read the first part of my post you will see why the bank robbery scenario just like the rape scenario is not concurrent with this scenario. You cant compare apples and oranges.

I do understand the law, but sometimes the law is pretty wack. two of my uncles are police officers. I respect what cops do it is dangerous and they are underpaid. But they arent the law. They uphold the laws no matter how stupid one law may be.

Just cuz its the law dosnt mean its right.
I take it you are obvisiouly a cop. I dont think the jury that is gonna decide this kids fate is going to be a jury of his peers. They will condemn this kid to jail for something he did not physically do. He DID NOT KILL THAT OTHER KID. Its not possible, he wasnt in the car with him , he didnt force him and he sure as hell didnt take that kids life with his own hands. But he will be convicted as if he did. Youre right he needs to go to court but bot for that. I dont think they are going to look at all his charges( obviuosly homicide being the worst one of all) and say lets reduce it to just a traffic violation.

[newstangownr]

In cases such as this, there is a long list of charges that the prosecutor's office will bring against the parties involved. Then, depending on how the evidence stacks up, they'll bring formal charges against them and they'll have the opportunity to plead (not-guilty, guilty, no contest). No doubt they'll be charged with some stuff that will require jail time. Unfortunately for them, that's just the beginning. The families of the victims will likely file a civil suit for damages and these kids will be endebted to those families for the rest of their lives, and their own families will likely lose everything they have because of attorney bills and civil suits. He's going to wish it were his funeral.

So, society suffers as a whole when one kid makes a bad decision. The only ones that come out ahead are the lawyers.

Peace.

[countymounty]

Originally Posted by Mana4Real

Well said SxrpGT and found50... But lets try to keep this at a debate level... No shots at each other guys.

Well I knew this would be an uphill battle talking to a group that approves of street racing but it doesn’t change the facts.


Rape and street racing are both crimes. Yes one is more severe then the other that is why the law has a much more severe penalty for one then the other, and yes you could use many other comparisons like a
child molester and a check forger, here both are also crimes, and both can be felonies depending on the circumstances. With a check forger they can harm a variety of people and businesses but it is only financially and emotional harming of the victim. With a child molester it is a severe emotional scar and high probability of physical injury also. But both are crimes that effect society and need to be stopped. And yes the punishment is different as defined by your state laws.

Is that justice? As it was so brilliantly put and what holds true is
What does justice have to do with our legal system? Nothing!

Our legal system is broke due to people (like many defending things here) who think because they do it. it should not be a crime, or they should go lightly on them because “everyone else does it.” that is why the person who killed Drew’s friend walked because a lot of people have the same attitude as you have for street racing, and they though they had been through enough so they should go easy on them.

I am not emotional at all, you are for defending something that you refuse to see the danger in, most likely because you have done it and don’t want to admit you were wrong IMO. I really don’t care how many people die, because you will still fail to see the danger of the action, and if god forbid you ever end up in the situation, again you will push off the blame as someone else’s fault.

You think I have a one track mind. Yep sure do. You see I don’t deal with a lot of rapes, but because of my training I do deal with a lot of child molesters. Do I let my emotions get in the way when I know I have two young daughters at home. NO, I could not do my job effectively if I did. My emotional response is to take the scum bags out on a county road and blow their freaking heads off. But if I let my emotions get in the way when I worked these cases that way I would not do a efficient job. If I walked into the interview room with a chip on my shoulder and hate in my eye for the scum I had to deal with I would blow the interview and investigation and the perp would get off and never go to prison.

In Missouri we don’t have “vehicular manslaughter” we do have a law that says if while in the commission of a felony if someone dies then all parties involved in the crime are responsible for the death. So if three people decide to rob a bank and go in with guns and one robber shots and kills someone, then all three can be charged with murder, weather they pulled the trigger or not.
We used this in a case where three people decided to manufacture meth. The youngest member, just 18 years old blew himself up was killed. One more suffered burns on over 70% of his body. Both survivors were charged with the others death and two separate juries found both men guilty for the death and each was given 30 years. I guess you guys would think that was harsh also.

The fact is if two people are racing and they are pulled over then they should be punished for it.
Now in this case two drivers decided to participate in an illegal activity that is known to be dangerous and have serious consequences.
The dead driver was not forced, oh well he paid the ultimate price. You think the other driver should be held harmless because his vehicle didn’t touch, who cares, the guys were racing, and the survivor was acting with criminal negligence when he knowing and willing participated in a criminal act that is know to be a hazard to not only the drivers , but the general public who use the roads for what they are intended for, which despite what you may believe is not a race track! Street racing is a danger to the drivers, the passengers, and every innocent bystander who is on or near the roadway. The people who participate in this have been told but choose to ignore the facts and say it wont happen to me, then when it does it It’s not my fault, and they start making up excuses.
All the excuses that have been mentioned here would also be at trial (if there is one) and the judge or jury could weigh that in there decision on what punishment he should get.

Drew you don’t get the law as I have tried to explain it to you, you think this gal should die a slow painful death because you have a personal connection to the case where she actually did something not as severe as what was done in a case where you think the guy is not responsible. You are not seeing the obvious. Yes a lot of the stories you have mentioned are not right and there should be more fairer justice handed out, but in some of these cases you don’t know the whole story, you don’t know all the facts, you don’t know what the law is in certain circumstances, and with some of them you are right, its just not fair and consistent. But this guy is criminally liable for this and he should be a man and take his consequences and not shove them off with excuses.

[STONECOLD]

the bank robbery is another bad example. that is a group effort, all in it for the porpose of robbing a bank. its not that we dont understand the law, we just disagree on how it is being applied.
no one is saying the kid should go free with no reprecutions, were just saying that we dont agree with the charge of homicide. i believe each individual is responsible for their own actions. the fact of the matter is that the only thing he did wrong was race, thats it, he illegally raced. people are always trying to attach other things to the facts. the last time i checked we all have free will, and no one forced the other kid to race. (i think we can all agree on this point) he made his own desicions and followed them through.

now i understand that people may want to make an example of him so that others wont do it as well, but thats where all the extra consequences and circumstances get attached. i mean if i (strictly for the sake of arguement) happen to blow by one of you at obviously excessive speeds and YOU decide that want to see if you can catch up or pass me (it just turned into a race of sorts) and YOU lose control of your car and kill yourself in the process, i should be charged with your death?? why? cause YOU made an unwise desicion? i didnt kill you, you killed you. i dont agree with that. charge me for speeding and all that goes with it, but dont charge me for some one elses desicions. i am responsible for me, not you. thats your job. in the end no matter how much some one begs, teases, pleads, asks or demands of you, YOU make the FINAL desicion of what YOUR actions will be. but today we dont just punish the individuals for their actions, we want to get everyone that whispered in their ears too. (yes im aware that there are extreme situations where thats warrented, but im speaking in general.) im not saying that anyone that has a different view is wrong, these are just mine and what i believe. and the fact that we can disaggree and go back and fourth is what gives us our checks and balances.

[sxrpGT]

Okay time out. So now you are assuming i approve of street racing? Umm your wrong I dont but hey if you are gonna do it be a real man and accept the fact that if you crash it is your own fault. So now you know me thats cool dont know when that happened. Define street racing I habve raced from stop light to stoplight on a empty road , so your opinion is wrong because I have owned up to it.
So now you are emotionless, how is that possible? Do you show your daughters love and your wife love? That is an emotion sorry. Do you feel haterd at any time, or anger, or sadness, or maybe happiness? Those are all emotions , no matter which way you look at it. Also all decisions are made on some basis of emotion. Your decision to reply to this post was based on some emotion that I triggered. So no you are not emotionless you manage to not let them affect your work but no one is emotionless unless they are dead. And plus right below the " i am emotiionless" post you state that you dont let your EMOTIONS get in the way. So see you have emotions, sorry.
also you said if I was ever in that situatiion that I would be quick to push the blame on someone else. Hmmmm no never doen it before. You see I was born with a pair and I fess up to my mistakes, I will take the blame for my actions unless I didint do it. If I am racing and I hit someone or something I will blame....MYSELF no one else because you see I and I alone am solely responsible for my actions. Just as the dead guy is well was. The other driver is not to blame for his accident. You must be one of those people who is quick to blame others but never actually look into a mirror.
You are right the public roads are not a race track thats why they are called roads but some people dont think so so they will race each other for miles until they are caught or someone is terminated.
you havent explained the law to me thats the problem you think you have but all you have tried to explain is how raping an innocent girl against her will is thje same as two people choosing to race knowing that one could die. Thats all you have explained you can explain it til you are blue in the face rape and racing are not comparible. Two extremes there is no median between them.
Rape:the crime of forcible sexual intercourse; abusive treatment
Race:a contest which is judged by speed.
So with those definition( thanks websters) how are rape and racing the same. I dont see the similarities other than the fact that they are crimes. That seems to be all your only argument and it is null and void. I compared two accident one a homicide the other a death from someones own decision.
IMO opinion you should not be able to charge the other driver with vehicular homicide. He did not take the life of the other driver. The dead driver extinguished his own life with his own decision.
And to touch on stonecolds point, should i be held accountable if I am going 100 miles an hour on the interstate and some other guy decide to chase me, He catches me and wants to pass me and he tries but clips the car in front of him and they both crash killing both drivers and I survive. Shouild I be charged with vehicular homicide? No I didnt make that kid chase me he did it himself I didnt have a flag that said follow me if you want to die. I cant be blamed I didnt make anyone crash I was just speeding and all I should be charged with is speeding and reckless driving and I should lose my license and pay a fine take community service take defensive driving and retake my drivers test but I shouldnt be thrown in jail for homicide. I technically didint kill anyone.

And I am sorry you feel the way you do about not caring how many people die doing this. Imagine if your daughters were racing would you want one of them to be one of those casualties? I wouldnt, I would hope you wouldnt. I doubt you would My sister gets her license in a few months she wants a GT i want her to get a stang but I do not want her to be one of those people killed that you dont care about just to make me see the danger which I am well aware of which is why I take my race to the track. Just as you wouldnt want your daughter to be a casualty in anything just to prove a point.
So are you sure you dont care how many people die? I mean the way you make it sound you are no better than a rapist because you have no compassion .

[countymounty]

Either you didn’t read my post or you are incapable of understanding it.

What you fail to understand is why he IS being charged (yes my answer you don’t understand must be right if he is being charge, but since you had other facts wrong who can tell unless you do find an article on it) but it is clear you lack the understanding and/or knowledge comprehend what is going on.

Just like you totally failed to see the facts around your friend’s accident. Your petition didn’t work because IF the area was a bad spot there would have been more accidents there and they didn’t want to pay 100k to drop a light in where it wasn’t needed just to appease some teenagers with a petition.

Is the law always right nope not at all if you would bother reading my post you would know I agree with you on that but do you always think you are right, yep sure sounds like it. So take you massive knowledge (courtesy of Webster) and huge driving experience (what is it now 20 months?) and go tell everyone about how you are the expert.

Maybe with time and maturity you will begin to get the picture.

[sxrpGT]

So now you know me and you are saying i cant understand the same thing you keep saying over and over.

I never said I was driving expert. Once again assuming, your good at that. Because I can destinguish bewteen rape and racing now I have massive knowledge, hmmm thats new to me.

There have been accidents there if you look back I said they told us 5 more FATALITIES not just accidents. I almost became one of those fatalities while riding my motorcycle, cars come flying over a hill and at the top of that hill is an intersection so you cant see if a car is coming during the day , you just have to go and hope you are going at a good time. Maybe it isnt needed, because people like yourself on a power trip think it doesnt matter how many people die. Thats your personal psychotic view, your entitled to it, no matter how twisted it sounds.

Ok if you think i don't understand why he is being charged then explain to me the justification behind his charge of vehicular homicide. the kid did not hit the other driver and force him into the wall and he didn't hold a gun to his head and force him to race. He also didn't speak to the other driver and threaten him to race. Their was no other interaction between the two parties exept the obvious racing. yes charge him with racing and wreckless driving and speeding and any other traffic violation that applies, but charging him with vehicular homicide is nothing other than trying to place the blame on some one besides the dead guy.

if your daughter is racing and the person she is racing wrecks and dies you think she should be charged with homicide. even though the other racer willingly participated in an illegal activity and obviously didn't know how to handle a car. Your daughter had nothing to do with the wreck, all she did was decide to try and go faster than the other guy even if that was below the speed limit. The wreck could have taken place at 45 mile per hour and the speed limit was 50. However she admitted to racing. WOULD YOU CHARGE HER WITH VEHICULAR HOMICIDE NOW.

[found50]

I want to say, I don't ever want to live in a society with no laws or justice, and no men willing to stand up for them. I appreciate the risk and the mental stress you are put threw on a daily basis, in your effort to help maintain the structure of our society. I feel you deserve more than what you often get, in terms of monetary compensation, respect, and more.

It's just upsetting when, so often, it seems the stress & negative crap officers are exposed to ever day, has so poisoned the views of those involved that they become jaded and bias. It's because police have so much power, and at times become so calis, they lose site of their responsibility, that I get bias. And, your right, I have street raced a few times and often drove well over 100mph, just for fun, I try to do it safely, by that I mean, I choice places where I am only indangering myself, and if an innocent person was killed, I would feel responsible, but if a WILLING race participant was killed, by their own error, I would regret it, but would not feel responsible. To say I only defend him becasue I do it to is wrong though, I defend many things I've never done and have no desire to do, on the other end I condiem many things I have done in the past, and was fortunanty enough to learn my onw lesson from, without the need for outside intervention.

As I said, I don't believe in anarchy, but I say the punishment should fit the crime, and that seems to be the biggest disagreement on this issue (and many like it) Where as some would compare this situation to a bank robbery, or rape...others would compare it more, to say, an illegal base jumping accident, where a man packing his own shoot fails to do so properly and the result is his own death, but it's not his jump partners fault he packed his shoot wrong.

Also, I can't speak for anyone else, but I have a fair knowledge of the law, I have several attorneys in my family as well as several felons, so I hear both sides. I read a lot, have discussions and have my opinions. I realized immediately that it was most like an arraignment hearing in 3 days, but that was already stated, so there was no need to point it out. And of course a charge is not a conviction, BUT, when you pull someone's record, ALL CHARGES are shown, whether it ever even went to trial or not, so in a sense, it is perminate. What I didn't know, and am a bite surprised by, is that street racing is a felony..WTF, what class? This is where I don't feel the charge or potential punishment is fitting to the crime. If it is in fact a felony, it is based on an assumption that IT WILL result in death, when actually it may result in death, heck jay walking MAY result in death, but it's no felony. We shouldn't be basing charges/punishment on what if's, it's almost a disregard for due process. Let's look at assault, if I simply punch someone, it's generally a 4th degree assault, if I beat them into hospitalization, it would be a more sever charge. That's fair, it's based on fact, not what if's. I know, your thinking that's is exactly what happened here, someone died, so he was charge accordingly, but the grounds for making the charge possible in the first place, is flawed. Like I said, take his car, take his license, BUT HE DID NOT KILL THIS OTHER KID.

I'll go out on limb & compare it to rape...YOU CAN'T RAPE THE WILLING...

[sebastian]

Apples and oranges thats all i have to say to county mounty, rape and street racing, please... yes both crimes, but as far as similarities go; thats it... Yes it may be the law, does it make it right. I have made some bad choices, and takin the fall for them... everyone has... thats what everyone is after here. People taking the fall for their actions, and their actions alone. robbing a bank and streeting racing hmmm. robbing a bank, all parties involved want to hurt someone, finacially or physcially. they are in it for the their own gain and someone else demise. yes street racing is stupid, reckless, irresisponsible and dumb, but no one wants to kill anyone, and this guy didnt kill anyone. bank robbers enter a bank prepared to kill if they have to. county mounty i have respect for you and the numerous people in my family that enforce the law... but it is also people like you that people everywhere hate cops for... like it or not, its the truth. Flame me county for all its worth, but people should take resoniblity for what they do. how bout this, instead of everyone suing the guy who stopped and helped, which btw, is honorable to say the least in this day and age, maybe they should sue the guys parents that died and was driving.... dont get me wrong punishment is due where its due, the guy should get fines, classes, suspension, but as far as being responsible for some else death that he didnt do, ha! f-that sounds like good old american buck passing if you ask me. cops are always behind you when your speeding, but when your mom is getting rape, your house getting broken into, terrorist attacking your nation where are they.,..in court with this bs!

[countymounty]

Originally Posted by found50

I want to say, I don't ever want to live in a society with no laws or justice, and no men willing to stand up for them. I appreciate the risk and the mental stress you are put threw on a daily basis, in your effort to help maintain the structure of our society. I feel you deserve more than what you often get, in terms of monetary compensation, respect, and more.

It's just upsetting when, so often, it seems the stress & negative crap officers are exposed to ever day, has so poisoned the views of those involved that they become jaded and bias. It's because police have so much power, and at times become so calis, they lose site of their responsibility, that I get bias. And, your right, I have street raced a few times and often drove well over 100mph, just for fun, I try to do it safely, by that I mean, I choice places where I am only indangering myself, and if an innocent person was killed, I would feel responsible, but if a WILLING race participant was killed, by their own error, I would regret it, but would not feel responsible. To say I only defend him becasue I do it to is wrong though, I defend many things I've never done and have no desire to do, on the other end I condiem many things I have done in the past, and was fortunanty enough to learn my onw lesson from, without the need for outside intervention.

As I said, I don't believe in anarchy, but I say the punishment should fit the crime, and that seems to be the biggest disagreement on this issue (and many like it) Where as some would compare this situation to a bank robbery, or rape...others would compare it more, to say, an illegal base jumping accident, where a man packing his own shoot fails to do so properly and the result is his own death, but it's not his jump partners fault he packed his shoot wrong.

Also, I can't speak for anyone else, but I have a fair knowledge of the law, I have several attorneys in my family as well as several felons, so I hear both sides. I read a lot, have discussions and have my opinions. I realized immediately that it was most like an arraignment hearing in 3 days, but that was already stated, so there was no need to point it out. And of course a charge is not a conviction, BUT, when you pull someone's record, ALL CHARGES are shown, whether it ever even went to trial or not, so in a sense, it is perminate. What I didn't know, and am a bite surprised by, is that street racing is a felony..WTF, what class? This is where I don't feel the charge or potential punishment is fitting to the crime. If it is in fact a felony, it is based on an assumption that IT WILL result in death, when actually it may result in death, heck jay walking MAY result in death, but it's no felony. We shouldn't be basing charges/punishment on what if's, it's almost a disregard for due process. Let's look at assault, if I simply punch someone, it's generally a 4th degree assault, if I beat them into hospitalization, it would be a more sever charge. That's fair, it's based on fact, not what if's. I know, your thinking that's is exactly what happened here, someone died, so he was charge accordingly, but the grounds for making the charge possible in the first place, is flawed. Like I said, take his car, take his license, BUT HE DID NOT KILL THIS OTHER KID.

I'll go out on limb & compare it to rape...YOU CAN'T RAPE THE WILLING...

Now this is a good rebuttal post.

If you look through the post I put I never in any way said rape is an equal charge to street racing, now did we say robbing a bank was equal to street racing. My comparison was the absurdity of not charging a rapist because they did a good deed.

I don’t know if street racing is a felony in the state where this happened I was using it as an example how someone could get charged when the circumstances don’t seem to make since. In MO racing is a traffic violation. In this happened here and we wanted to file charges it could be endangering the welfare of a child (depending on age) or assault.

If they are going to charge this guy they would have to have sufficient evidence to make the prosecutor believe he could win the case at trial. There are probably witness and signed statements (normally needed in felony cases) there has to be much more to actually charge and trial this guy then in the original post which was inaccurate, and could contain more misinformation, which is why I wanted the a link.

As to speeding and someone coming up on you, they would have to prove the two of you were participating in a race and you acted in criminal negligence. So it would be two very different things, but only looks similar because of the lack of information.