[Mack Daddy]

IM IN SUPPORT OF WLDCHIC! Keep up the fight, you will win!

[ridept]

Originally Posted by kscoyote

Americans have a duty to fight rules that impinge upon constitutional freedoms. It's written into the constitution.

Have you read it?

Feedom of expression does not include walking around with your dick out. There are limits. I fought to protect the constitution. Have you?

[kscoyote]

Originally Posted by Falcon453

The sex education and homsexuality issues, I think you're right. These things are factual, so they can be taught. However, evolution is total BS. I've taken the science classes in college, and the more I learn about evolution, the more flaky I realize it is. And that's just looking at it scientifically. I'm not saying creationism has any more scientific evidence. What it comes down to is what do you want to believe, evolution or creation. Neither can actually be proven. This is why evolution shouldn't be taught in public schools.

Sorry, I know it's I just had to say it

I used to think the same thing, until I started taking anatomy, physiology, genetics, and looked at the actual fossil records of proto-humans, humans, and specifically whales, dogs, cats and bears.

It's undeniable, especially when looking a the fossil record off the Washington State coastline. Did you know whales are so close to dogs they get distemper? physiologically, anatomically, and genetically, you can't argue it scientifically. Even the Vatican researches evolution, astronomy, and the natural world.

You can assert that God created the template, as the Vatican does, and state that the real question is when humanity was imbued with "souls." But that is not a question for science, and teachings about the creator are best left to religious scholars, and parents.

The question of the nature of God are not suited to schools, as everyone there may have a different interpretation that cannot be argued factually. I know I don't want this governments interpretation of God taught to my son. And I can back up my position with scripture. You may have a different interpretation, and would not want me to teach your kids about the creator.

That's the point.

It's none of the government's business.

[kscoyote]

Originally Posted by ridept

Feedom of expression does not include walking around with your dick out. There are limits. I fought to protect the constitution. Have you?

I fight every day. Including here.

P.S. Obscenity is not publicly protected speech. If you buy tickets to see me walking around that way in a private venue, it IS protected speech, since it falls under privacy.

but that's still off topic

[Caddylack]

I think it's rediculous that they won't let her dress a certain way, but that is not why she might get expelled. School is not a court of law, students for the most part don't have rights in school. It's not like your daughter was arrested or anything, so it's basically up to the school. I'm in high school and once I wore a Jack Daniel's shirt to school. I was told to take it off and thn I put it back on later. In the last 10 minutes of the day, I ran into the guy that made me take it off. So I argued that Jack Daniel's is just a company, and they make alot of things, and the shirt doesn't advertise whiskey in any way. I ended up getting in trouble not for the shirt, but for insubordination when I put it back on.

A grown woman can't get suspended for swearing, but a student can. I can't believe she got suspended for 5 days. I live in an almost entirely white, upper-class suburb and that would never happen around here. I got suspended 1 day for punching a kid, and there were plenty of obscenities exchanged also. Here, kids get suspended for 5 days when they get caught with bud at school.

[keenr]

Originally Posted by kscoyote

Sex Ed is a good governmental decision, and parents may opt-out. There is no gevernmental interference in religion or parental decision-making here...

But you said "the government has no right to make family choices. It's a PUBLIC SCHOOL..." How is telling children that condoms, the pill, and abortion are good and acceptible things, which may be directly AGAINST what they're taught at home, any different than telling wldchic's daughter that "Skin" clothing is not approriate for school. Shouldn't your suggestion work here also? Her daughter can either wear clothing that IS deemed approriate or "opt out" of attending school.

Originally Posted by kscoyote

Evolution is scientifically-based, and the basis of every medical advance made since germ theory. The government may not produce propaganda, or religious texts. If creationism could be proven, then the government would have an obligation to teach it....

But Evolution is still just that. A THEORY. And there are many reputable scientists who will tell you that Creationism and or Intelligent Design as a theory, is not exclusive of Evolution and could very easily and rightfully be mentioned in the same classes. No establishment of religion, no propaganda.

Originally Posted by kscoyote

The homosexual "lifestyle" as you call it, falls under the third point, that the government may not discriminate against its own citizens...

But by stifling opposition to teaching a pro-homosexual agenda in public schools and not allowing those who disagree to express those opinions the Government, (in this case the local school boards) ARE discrimiating against their own, in this case people who have an objection to the "lifestyle" being held up as acceptable.

Originally Posted by kscoyote

More and more evidence shows homosexuality is not a choice, but is genetic and/or hormonal in nature...

That may or may not be the case. And many people will tell that whatever the cause they're not against the "condition" but against the "practise" of it. However, sexual preference can also be affected and influenced by nurture, traumatic experience, and role models. Now all of that aside, Even IF it can have a genetic cause, so can a disposition toward pedophilia, infidelity, and rape. We don't encourage THESE lifestyles...

Originally Posted by kscoyote

Students may not persecute other students they believe are gay for religious reasons. They ARE free to have religious opinions, but may not use their opinion as cause to intimidate or persecute other students...

But then the argument becomes that ANY expression of opposition to the endorsement of the gay lifestyle IS persecution and intimidation.

Originally Posted by kscoyote

California Law will fall before the U.S. Constitution...

It doesn't seem so in this case. It appears that so far the US Supreme Court has refused to hear these dress code type cases, instead standing with the school districts and lower courts. The cases I found, some ruling directly on dress codes and some simply applied TO dress codes, mostly say that if a student is directly TRYING to convey a political message, like "Abortion Stops a Beating Heart" printed on a T-shirt, and that message is understood by "reasonable" observers, THEN his wearing of it is protected. But if it's just a "fashion trend" then it is NOT covered. So wldchic's daughter's sweatshirts would not be protected unles there's some sort of political message.

Tinker v. Des Moines
Bivens v. Albuquerque
US v. O'Brien

[J-ROD]

1st question: Where did your daughter learn to speak like that? She shoulda just gone to the principal or someone. If my daughter ever speaks like that she'll get a belt to her a$$ just like I did when I was a kid.

Hey rules are rules, and their set in stone once told or written. All of us have rules, if you let your kids do what they want, say what they want, and wear what they want all the time then your not teaching them yourself. The best teacher to your children is yourself. Yeah most rules are stupid and make no sense, but they are still the rules. I had stupid rules in school, and I still have stupid rules at work. You cant wear this, you cant say that, you cant go to the restroom when you want, it's just a part of everyday life, just deal with it and go on with life. I'm not telling you how to raise your children, they are yours not mine, but you have to follow the rules no matter how f@#ked up they are. I'm sure you have rules at your work too, and if you dont follow them your fired for sure. Everyone knows life isnt fair and rules suck a$$ but just deal with it, your daughters education is more important than some stupid clothes. Just tell your kids to follow the stupid rules, because they will have more stupid rules in college, and at work later on in life and they will have to follow them too. We all probably went through our rebellious stage around 8th grade and on, and I'm sure there are some things your kids are not telling you. Just think of the direction you want to send your kids on. I can see your frustration on the subject, but just sit back and think about how every action will affect your childrens future.

[sxrpGT]

I just found out that SKIN clothing also makes dirt bike riding gear( jerseys, pants, gloves, etc) I have yet to notice the AMA preaching about white supremacy....I mean if that where the case Bubba James( i think that is his name) a 18 year old black kid , and one of the most talented riders to arrive at his age, would never have been allowed to race. So if SKIN clothing is in fact in support of white supremacy why would they have anything to do with the AMA??????

Point being the school has no ground to stand on and needs to shut the hell up and do what they are told to do....EDUCATE the youth of America ..not make them follow BS rules. As for the girl cussing at the mother.....all I can say is HELL YEAH!!! I do not condone a child cussing just to hear themselves cuss but I mean come on the school should have had the woman escorted out of the building and never been allowed back in there unless it where a emergency. The girl is 15 years old for god sake i expect that response from her .. i do not expect a GROWN woman to try and cuss out a young girl!!!!! The woman was in the wrong, she did not have to say a single word, yet this is just another example of someone who is noty ready to be a parent yet she were allowed to breed therefore falling into responsibilities she knows nothing about.

[wldchic]

Originally Posted by sxrpGT

I just found out that SKIN clothing also makes dirt bike riding gear( jerseys, pants, gloves, etc) I have yet to notice the AMA preaching about white supremacy....I mean if that where the case Bubba James( i think that is his name) a 18 year old black kid , and one of the most talented riders to arrive at his age, would never have been allowed to race. So if SKIN clothing is in fact in support of white supremacy why would they have anything to do with the AMA??????

Point being the school has no ground to stand on and needs to shut the hell up and do what they are told to do....EDUCATE the youth of America ..not make them follow BS rules. As for the girl cussing at the mother.....all I can say is HELL YEAH!!! I do not condone a child cussing just to hear themselves cuss but I mean come on the school should have had the woman escorted out of the building and never been allowed back in there unless it where a emergency. The girl is 15 years old for god sake i expect that response from her .. i do not expect a GROWN woman to try and cuss out a young girl!!!!! The woman was in the wrong, she did not have to say a single word, yet this is just another example of someone who is noty ready to be a parent yet she were allowed to breed therefore falling into responsibilities she knows nothing about.

THANK YOU...............

I think out of all this, the main response is why would you let you child say that.....teach her some manners...blah, blah, blah.........I'm glad someone can actually see that the crazy nut should NEVER speak to my daughter, and what do you expect her to do.......she is a kid! and of course I don't allow that type of language....She never uses any foul language. She took the correct steps, told me, I called the police, nothing was done, so come on..................

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 316009" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 align=middle width=125>J-ROD</TD><TD class=alt2>1st question: Where did your daughter learn to speak like that? She shoulda just gone to the principal or someone. If my daughter ever speaks like that she'll get a belt to her a$$ just like I did when I was a kid.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
OK, blame me........I probubly called the woman a F***ING C**T, after I found out she told my daughters she was going to kill them, and dispose of their bodies.

Go to the principal.......??? WE WENT TO THE POLICE.....nothing happened, you expect the principal to take a stand......please. She still hasn't done a dam thing......

Well you let me know if someone ever threatens to kill your daughter......what your response will be. You must not have kids, if you did, your response would be very different. If that were to ever happen, most guys would be responding from their jail call.

[wldchic]

Originally Posted by sxrpGT

The woman was in the wrong, she did not have to say a single word, yet this is just another example of someone who is not ready to be a parent yet she was allowed to breed therefore falling into responsibilities she knows nothing about.

Perfectly stated.

[J-ROD]

You went to the police because the woman called your daughter a little bi@#h?? I bet that was a waste of time. I wasnt responding to the point that the woman said she will kill her and dispose of her body, I honestly dont know what I would do unless I were in that situation, but I would for sure put a restraining order on that bi@#h for even mentioning that if I were you. I can see your frustration about all this, but your obviously asking for everyones opinion on the subject and you cant expect everyone to agree with your methods. If you want my opinion tell your kids not to wear the clothes to school, follow their stupid a$$ rules, ignore the bi@#h who is talkin s@#t before someone gets in real trouble, and get on with life as usual before this all gets blown way outta proportion. Like I said there are things your kids are probably not telling you. It sound to me like you need to have a face to face talk to this other woman and see what the hell her problem really is. Maybe she is psycho or maybe your kids are talkin sh#t to her or her kid, who the hell knows, but you need to find out the whole story. And I do have a daughter, but we have to handle these things like adults because education is number 1. I'm not tryin to make you mad, I'm just stating my opinion, after all that's what you asked for right.? If the school disapproves of their clothing there is nothing you can do about it, trust me. So either your kids can sit at home with you all day while their not in school because they wanna wear a stupid shirt, or they can go to school, follow the dumb a$$ rules and get an education so they can one day go to college and follow some more stupid rules like the rest of the real world has to do. Be sure to get that restraining order.

[keenr]

Originally Posted by sxrpGT

I just found out that SKIN clothing also makes dirt bike riding gear( jerseys, pants, gloves, etc) I have yet to notice the AMA preaching about white supremacy.....

Probably true. But did you look at what I wrote before about pro sports teams who's logos have been adopted by gangs? Teams like the Radiers, the White Sox and the Pirates. Police Officers in some areas are taught to identify certain "sets" by what pro teams they wear. Many school districts have had to ban all pro sports teams for fear that one kid wearing the wrong team jersey or hat will start gang violence. The TEAMS don't support gangs, but their logos ARE used by them. Maybe the School was advised that "Skin" clothes have been co-opted by "Skin" Heads. It WOULD make sense. If I were wldchic I would have calmly asked what exactly the school district meant and where they got there information. I'm just afraid that based on what she's written here and some of her reactions to past events, she might have NO credibility left with either the School District or the police...

By the way I found a few other school districts which specifically mention "Skin" clothing being banned.

[kscoyote]

Originally Posted by Caddylack

I think it's rediculous that they won't let her dress a certain way, but that is not why she might get expelled. School is not a court of law, students for the most part don't have rights in school. It's not like your daughter was arrested or anything, so it's basically up to the school. I'm in high school and once I wore a Jack Daniel's shirt to school. I was told to take it off and thn I put it back on later. In the last 10 minutes of the day, I ran into the guy that made me take it off. So I argued that Jack Daniel's is just a company, and they make alot of things, and the shirt doesn't advertise whiskey in any way. I ended up getting in trouble not for the shirt, but for insubordination when I put it back on.

A grown woman can't get suspended for swearing, but a student can. I can't believe she got suspended for 5 days. I live in an almost entirely white, upper-class suburb and that would never happen around here. I got suspended 1 day for punching a kid, and there were plenty of obscenities exchanged also. Here, kids get suspended for 5 days when they get caught with bud at school.

Actually, in several states cursing is a misdemeanor

[kscoyote]

Originally Posted by keenr

But you said "the government has no right to make family choices. It's a PUBLIC SCHOOL..." How is telling children that condoms, the pill, and abortion are good and acceptible things, which may be directly AGAINST what they're taught at home, any different than telling wldchic's daughter that "Skin" clothing is not approriate for school. Shouldn't your suggestion work here also? Her daughter can either wear clothing that IS deemed approriate or "opt out" of attending school.

But Evolution is still just that. A THEORY. And there are many reputable scientists who will tell you that Creationism and or Intelligent Design as a theory, is not exclusive of Evolution and could very easily and rightfully be mentioned in the same classes. No establishment of religion, no propaganda.

Parents are free to remove their students from the classroom when those items are being taught.

I know, because, for the most part, I was.


Keenr, do you know what differentiates a theory from a proof in science? Do you know the rigor for each?

The only proofs tha exist are within the framework of man-made tautology. Mainly within mathematics.

Gotta' run! phone call.

[kscoyote]

Originally Posted by keenr

But you said "the government has no right to make family choices. It's a PUBLIC SCHOOL..." How is telling children that condoms, the pill, and abortion are good and acceptible things, which may be directly AGAINST what they're taught at home, any different than telling wldchic's daughter that "Skin" clothing is not approriate for school. Shouldn't your suggestion work here also? Her daughter can either wear clothing that IS deemed approriate or "opt out" of attending school.

(you've never used contraception? That explains a lot!)

As was said before, IF the teaching contradicts religion, parents have the right to have their child excluded from that class session. ? Where's the conflict.

Forcing your religious views upon every child in the school IS unconstitutional. Every state that has adopted "abstinence-only" education has seen increases in STDs, childhood pregnancies, and abortions.

States with contraception education have low rates of all of the above. Look it up.

Originally Posted by keenr

But Evolution is still just that. A THEORY. And there are many reputable scientists who will tell you that Creationism and or Intelligent Design as a theory, is not exclusive of Evolution and could very easily and rightfully be mentioned in the same classes. No establishment of religion, no propaganda.

Have you ever taken a science class above 400 level? Do you know anything about Anatomy, Physiology, and Genetics?

Do you know what separates a Theory from a Proof, or law? You realize is "only" a theory?

Virtually the only proofs that exist in science are within the framework of man-made tautology, specifically in mathematics. The only law that I can think of in the natural world, off-hand, is the Law of Gravity, and only because it was declared a law before extra-terrestial exploration. So there is a caveat to the Law, and that is "On Earth."

This isn't worth arguing.

The Vatican (or, if you prefer, the Catholic Church) accepts evolution, arguing the only point of evolution in question is when God gave humankind a Soul.

The Vatican learned its lesson after years of burning scientists at the stake. I reckon the Evangelicals here are too young of a sect to have learned that particular lesson.

Originally Posted by keenr

But by stifling opposition to teaching a pro-homosexual agenda in public schools and not allowing those who disagree to express those opinions the Government, (in this case the local school boards) ARE discrimiating against their own, in this case people who have an objection to the "lifestyle" being held up as acceptable. That may or may not be the case. And many people will tell that whatever the cause they're not against the "condition" but against the "practise" of it. However, sexual preference can also be affected and influenced by nurture, traumatic experience, and role models. Now all of that aside, Even IF it can have a genetic cause, so can a disposition toward pedophilia, infidelity, and rape. We don't encourage THESE lifestyles...

Rape, pedophilia, and infidelity are not genetically predisposed. Where do you come up with this stuff?

Furthermore, the 1st two are violent crimes. The last is generally settled in civil court, ending in divorce at times. (Would you bring back the stockades and pin scarlet letters on violators of the marriage vows? Would you prevent them from remarrying? Would you keep them from earning a living? Would you discriminate against them in housing?) Half of congress, including Bob Barr, Dennis Hastert, Rudy Giulani, Arnold Schwarzennegger, jeez, I can't even type the sheer numbers of them would qualify for discrimination under your rules. Good luck trying to get that law passed.

What's your point?

Originally Posted by keenr

But then the argument becomes that ANY expression of opposition to the endorsement of the gay lifestyle IS persecution and intimidation.

So you want a Taliban-styled Government, maybe you should join Bin Laden's group.

Originally Posted by keenr

It doesn't seem so in this case. It appears that so far the US Supreme Court has refused to hear these dress code type cases, instead standing with the school districts and lower courts. The cases I found, some ruling directly on dress codes and some simply applied TO dress codes, mostly say that if a student is directly TRYING to convey a political message, like "Abortion Stops a Beating Heart" printed on a T-shirt, and that message is understood by "reasonable" observers, THEN his wearing of it is protected. But if it's just a "fashion trend" then it is NOT covered. So wldchic's daughter's sweatshirts would not be protected unles there's some sort of political message.

Tinker v. Des Moines
Bivens v. Albuquerque
US v. O'Brien

That's not at all what they said. Read the opinion.

The case opinion said, in short, there is to be no limit to freedom of expression, except where it may cause disruption in the classroom, harming other's chances at an education.