they hybrid full size truck is 5000 more than a regular truck with little gain in mileage. Another bad decision. The Escape hybrid is selling like crazy, as is the Prius, Accord, etc. There is a REAL gain in mileage and similar, if not BETTER performance with these cars.
You don't think the Japanese have better benefits than US workers? Or the Germans for that matter?! All of them have healthcarte, infact EVERY industrialized country besides the US has affordable healthcare for workers.
You're not doing your research man. Unions aren't killing American business, it's slave labor in communist China. American companies would rather charge American out their rears for healthcare (which is more expensive in this country while fewer people are covered, and seniors have to go to Canada to get the SAME drugs at a cheaper price), while having shorter life expectancy. This makes NO sense.
When American Workers have to compete with slave labor, there is no competition, and it seems, some in this country would prefer those who work for a living should work under the same conditions as slaves.
It used to be people were accountable for their actions. Now the people making the worst decisions keep their jobs, get bonuses, while everyone who plays by the rules gets the shaft. My father's generation had pensions, retirement, health care, vacations, and money to send me to college, even though he had an 8th grade education. My grandfather had the same benefits. That's gone now, in most cases, and people are either too busy to notice, or don't care.
If everyone feels this way, the American Way is dead.
Nope, you're not doing yours.
__________________
I Hate GM, deal with it.
One shot, One Kill! Don't waste ammo, it's pricey!
2005 GT Screaming Yellow: SLP Loudmouths
Ibanez guitars, S&W revolvers, Glock Semi's
Republican write in Presidential Candidate 2012
most of the jobs goping overseas aren't even union jobs.
Japan, Italy, Gerrmany, and Korea, for that matter have Universal Health Care, pensions, and vacations that are MUCH longer than ours. Those companies are taxed MORE heavily than GM, and are located in Socialist countries. GM's CEO has said as much, pushing for UHC in the U.S.
Look up J.D. Power and Associates, and you'll see SEVERAL GM plants that are rated the best in the world. Buick, Chevrolet Corvette, and other divisions lead their segments in initial quality. It's not the worker's fault the product is lousy. Their doing their jobs, and winning awards for it.
It the vehicles GM has invested in, ESPECIALLY the corvette, GM leads. In the segments they abandoned for trucks, with 30 year old platforms like the sunfire/skylark/j-car & the Buick Lacrosse/Grand Prix/Monte Carlo platforms, ad nauseum, the vehicles are rental lot losers.
Bad decisions are what's killing GM, not the workers.
Executive salary at GM has climbed 30% in the past couple of years, even while the company's going under -hmmmmm.
At this rate, they're going to get a Medal of Freedom from Bush.
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
Tell ya' what, -Show me the Union signature on the Fiat deal that just cost GM billions of dollars!!
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
tripleblack, I agree. But, Daimler-Crysler 's hemi doesn't impress me anymore than GM's lineup. I would like to see Ford up the power in the F150 like I know they can, to shut the Hemi-sheep up.
The hemi line starts at about 300hp and goes straight up to 500hp - in the first year of introduction. GM cannot compete with this - their truck line runs out of steam with the antique 454 and their car line is a bunch of bad front drive designs with transplanted V8's.
Ford management is intent on assuming that the F150 line will continue to sell itself, while they put their performance pr efforts into the Adrenaline, an attempt to build sales of the truly awful Ranger minitruck variant that has NOT sold for about 4 years now. This is sure looking like the good ol' days, when they used names like Shelby (and now SVT) to try to pump sales into failing car lines. With the Ford 500 falling flat on its face; the Freestyle in free fall: and Lincoln/Mercury dying literally of old age, the shiney faced neo-euros running Ford appear to be scrambling after the shrinking pool of SVT engineering talent and the magik of the SVT name to salvage something from the debacle... Lightning? What Lightning?
Daimler/Chrysler can tighten the screws each year, and unlike GM, they have a clue what the market wants. Don't think Chrysler won't add turbos and sc's to the mix - Mercedes has more different boosted OE models than any other manufacturer - and they are comfortable with adding these things to big V8's - they do it with Mercedes all the time.
As for Ford, look for them to slowly awaken from their re-organizational snooze. The ghostly remnant of SVT will be subsumed into the Ford amoeba, and perhaps a tiny bit of performance dna will make its way into the larger Ford universe. Heck, they may even decide to run the Romeo engine plant 2 shifts (unlike the current 1 shift - no overtime allowed), and do more than pretend to try to meet the demand for 4.6 motors and 8.8 rears.
You see, its not just GM that's in trouble. Ford's credit rating is worse than a crack addict's; their stock is worth just a bit more than the paper its printed on; and their car sales other than the new mustang are at best pathetic.
If they start out selling the new GT500 solely to insiders at the dealerships who then turn around and farm them out as "used" cars for twice the MSRP ($70000 - $80000 sales price is being bandied about), the PR fallout among the remaining Ford faithful will be an ugly scene.
The hemi line starts at about 300hp and goes straight up to 500hp - in the first year of introduction. GM cannot compete with this - their truck line runs out of steam with the antique 454 and their car line is a bunch of bad front drive designs with transplanted V8's.
Ford management is intent on assuming that the F150 line will continue to sell itself, while they put their performance pr efforts into the Adrenaline, an attempt to build sales of the truly awful Ranger minitruck variant that has NOT sold for about 4 years now. This is sure looking like the good ol' days, when they used names like Shelby (and now SVT) to try to pump sales into failing car lines. With the Ford 500 falling flat on its face; the Freestyle in free fall: and Lincoln/Mercury dying literally of old age, the shiney faced neo-euros running Ford appear to be scrambling after the shrinking pool of SVT engineering talent and the magik of the SVT name to salvage something from the debacle... Lightning? What Lightning?
Daimler/Chrysler can tighten the screws each year, and unlike GM, they have a clue what the market wants. Don't think Chrysler won't add turbos and sc's to the mix - Mercedes has more different boosted OE models than any other manufacturer - and they are comfortable with adding these things to big V8's - they do it with Mercedes all the time.
As for Ford, look for them to slowly awaken from their re-organizational snooze. The ghostly remnant of SVT will be subsumed into the Ford amoeba, and perhaps a tiny bit of performance dna will make its way into the larger Ford universe. Heck, they may even decide to run the Romeo engine plant 2 shifts (unlike the current 1 shift - no overtime allowed), and do more than pretend to try to meet the demand for 4.6 motors and 8.8 rears.
You see, its not just GM that's in trouble. Ford's credit rating is worse than a crack addict's; their stock is worth just a bit more than the paper its printed on; and their car sales other than the new mustang are at best pathetic.
If they start out selling the new GT500 solely to insiders at the dealerships who then turn around and farm them out as "used" cars for twice the MSRP ($70000 - $80000 sales price is being bandied about), the PR fallout among the remaining Ford faithful will be an ugly scene.
tripleblack
At least the CEO of Ford is refusing his salary, and those responsible for some of the WORST deals were fired.
There's at least a semblance of accountability . . .
Ironic that the best Ford Products now come from Ford of Europe. Namely the EuroFocus/S40/Mazda3 triplets, the XC90, etc.
The best PRODUCTS and DESIGN (what makes sales) aren't coming from here. That's MANAGEMENT, not the workers.
Honda's taking lumps in sales after they simplified the suspensions on their bread and butter cars, and Hyundai's killing them.
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
I think we're on the same page, but a few ideas anyway...
Multi-billionaire Ford not taking a salary (this has been going on for several years - its old news) from a company that his family still essentially owns and which bears his name - and which is NOT doing well under his tutelage - is the least he can do - and I'm glad he at least has the class to do that much. As for those responsible for the bad deals getting fired, forcing out Theodore and Coletti just as you're about to bring their near-miraculous accomplishment to market (ie, the Ford GT) may not have been the best idea in the world. Sure, that way you steal their glory - but what if you need them to do the last few tests and problem-solving chores? What if you need a creative engineer to fix a few suspension headaches? Oops.
Ford is definitely in better shape than GM - but not because the winners of the coup at the top made the right choices - but instead because the folks they displaced did. The new group has gambled on bringing more new lines to the market simultaneously than ever before in the history of the company - and failed miserably. The Mustang (particularly the GT, which management in its infinite wisdom has oh-so-reluctantly made so very few of) is their sole shining star, and the dark secret under that is the reality that multiple shifts at the AAI plant to make more stangs has resulted in dealer's lots full of 6 cylinder cars and customers waiting entire model YEARS to get the cars they ordered long ago! More GT's will roll only AFTER the Romeo engine plant gears up to make more engines, and no overtime is contemplated there - hence, no new allocations of GT's. Ford certainly has problems, and they definitely start right at the top.
As for the best Ford products coming from Europe, this is a bit of a stretch - but its probably inevitable that the design functions of Ford will follow its new, self-annointed "Chief Creative Officer" to his digs in Soho. As I said, the coup has been completed, and the euros are in charge. This same transormation happened 10 years ago at GM and we can all see where it has gotten them...
Don't get me wrong - I am emphatically blaming GM's management for their situation - not the unions, not the middle managers and engineers, and not the workers on the line. Take away their problems with work rules, labor costs and contract disputes, and GM is still sitting on inventories of ugly, poorly designed vehicles. Management is the problem. Do away with the unions tomorrow, and all you do is give the same bad management decisions a little more time to repeat endlessly the same mistakes.
As for the source of the best designs, the Japanese thoughtfully moved some design functions to the US quite a while back, and they don't seem to be suffering from it. Chrysler at one time was building a design powerhouse here, until it was demoted for a while by the boys in der Deutchland. Now they've leavened the group with some of their own (probably inevitable), and the new ideas are once again flowing from the mixed US/German teams in Detroit. Like 'em or not, the new Chrysler styles are unique and look to be successful. I haven't decided whether I like the new Magnum or not - I HAVE decided that I DO like the 300's - and who can miss those monster trucks they make? Not boring, not generic, and probably not failures.
As for Honda's problems with Hyundai competition, I'm more focused on the possibility that the US will lose another 50,000 auto manufacturer jobs to foreign competition. Someone needs to kick some management butt up in Detroit - and who better to do it than a bunch of stang drivers with attitude?
The new Mustang has shown the way - build cars Americans want to buy, drive and look at. Or you can build generic household appliances on wheels, and lose your jobs.
Seems like an easy choice to me.
tripleblack
Quote:
Originally Posted by kscoyote
At least the CEO of Ford is refusing his salary, and those responsible for some of the WORST deals were fired.
There's at least a semblance of accountability . . .
Ironic that the best Ford Products now come from Ford of Europe. Namely the EuroFocus/S40/Mazda3 triplets, the XC90, etc.
The best PRODUCTS and DESIGN (what makes sales) aren't coming from here. That's MANAGEMENT, not the workers.
Honda's taking lumps in sales after they simplified the suspensions on their bread and butter cars, and Hyundai's killing them.
Let's see.....I work for an automobile manufacturer....No, I don't pay for health care (my company pays it all, and a great plan to boot) and we don't HAVE the union. Matter of fact, the union isn't welcome here - no one wants them around. Most companies today, doesn't matter WHAT they make/do/sell charge their employees big bucks for health care (yes, I have worked for 2 of them since I retired from the Navy, and didn't take their health "care" plans because I have the military thing), so it's not just the auto companies. I was reading an auto newspaper yesterday (I'll get the name of the thing at work tomorrow) that said not only was GM in the crapper, but Ford wasn't far behind. Let's face it - the Japanese cars sell better because you get more for your money when you buy one. They last longer and don't fall apart at 50,000 miles. No, all the cars in my house are AMERICAN made (my pony, and wife and daughter have GMs), but I have owned Toyota trucks in the past and swear by them. Bottom line is - it's my money, I'll spend it how I want. If American companies produce a better product, I buy it. GMs products haven't been that great recently, and now they are paying the price for not keeping up.
OK, Fine then! It's not the unions. It's not the other expenses. It's just poor management, and slave labor. People, the Koreans and Japanese are in 1st world countries, with 1st world economies. They have very good wages there, and pay a very high percentage of that into taxes to pay for their health care, which SUCKS!! They do have pensions, but not 100% of their pay, like what's demanded by the unions. Hell, military retirees don't get 100% of their pay, which they more than deserve. Maybe you were thinking of the communist Koreans and Chinese when speaking of slave labor.
Does anyone seriously believe that by typing a "book" makes them correct. I admit, my belief is JUST MY OPINION. I believe it to be true, but that doesn't make it so. Maybe some of ya'll should go work for "The Great Satan GM" and fix all of the wrongs of the upper management.
I STILL think it's the reasons I've stated earlier in this thread.
Point fingers where you want, only time will tell. I do know that the unions are an outdated concept, and are thoroughly corrupt. Thank God for "Right to work" states.
End result is the same, GM is in the Crapper for now, but they won't be going out of business anytime soon. Neither will Ford, or it's SVT division.
Ya'll can continue this pointless debate. If I'm wrong, I'll laugh at myself, with you when the American Automakers die.
__________________
I Hate GM, deal with it.
One shot, One Kill! Don't waste ammo, it's pricey!
2005 GT Screaming Yellow: SLP Loudmouths
Ibanez guitars, S&W revolvers, Glock Semi's
Republican write in Presidential Candidate 2012
OK, Fine then! It's not the unions. It's not the other expenses. It's just poor management, and slave labor. People, the Koreans and Japanese are in 1st world countries, with 1st world economies. They have very good wages there, and pay a very high percentage of that into taxes to pay for their health care, which SUCKS!! They do have pensions, but not 100% of their pay, like what's demanded by the unions. Hell, military retirees don't get 100% of their pay, which they more than deserve. Maybe you were thinking of the communist Koreans and Chinese when speaking of slave labor.
Does anyone seriously believe that by typing a "book" makes them correct. I admit, my belief is JUST MY OPINION. I believe it to be true, but that doesn't make it so. Maybe some of ya'll should go work for "The Great Satan GM" and fix all of the wrongs of the upper management.
I STILL think it's the reasons I've stated earlier in this thread.
Point fingers where you want, only time will tell. I do know that the unions are an outdated concept, and are thoroughly corrupt. Thank God for "Right to work" states.
End result is the same, GM is in the Crapper for now, but they won't be going out of business anytime soon. Neither will Ford, or it's SVT division.
Ya'll can continue this pointless debate. If I'm wrong, I'll laugh at myself, with you when the American Automakers die.
Their health care systems are cheaper, and they have longer life expectancies, and less infant mortality. -That sucks?!
No, I'm talking about manufacturing jobs generally, those aren't even union jobs that are going to the Chinese. What used to be accepted labor practices, such as pensions, health care, living wages, and so on are now considered luxuries due to competition from the Chinese. Union jobs are the last haven that exists for working people to be able to improve the lives of their children and families.
Where do you get the idea they get 100% of their salaries when they retire? My dad didn't, and he was a Railroad worker . . . Their pensions which were a part of their salaries were to be invested in safe investments. They worked for that money for retirement. GM and other companies raided (stole) the money to pay execs, who are making bad decisions, and IMHO don't deserve their salaries, especially bonuses which are to pay for "excellent performance."
Right to work states have the highest incidence of poverty, infant mortality, poor education, and higher incidences of "welfare" payments to the population.
Gee, I wonder why?
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
I think we're on the same page, but a few ideas anyway...
Multi-billionaire Ford not taking a salary (this has been going on for several years - its old news) from a company that his family still essentially owns and which bears his name - and which is NOT doing well under his tutelage - is the least he can do - and I'm glad he at least has the class to do that much. As for those responsible for the bad deals getting fired, forcing out Theodore and Coletti just as you're about to bring their near-miraculous accomplishment to market (ie, the Ford GT) may not have been the best idea in the world. Sure, that way you steal their glory - but what if you need them to do the last few tests and problem-solving chores? What if you need a creative engineer to fix a few suspension headaches? Oops.
Ford is definitely in better shape than GM - but not because the winners of the coup at the top made the right choices - but instead because the folks they displaced did. The new group has gambled on bringing more new lines to the market simultaneously than ever before in the history of the company - and failed miserably. The Mustang (particularly the GT, which management in its infinite wisdom has oh-so-reluctantly made so very few of) is their sole shining star, and the dark secret under that is the reality that multiple shifts at the AAI plant to make more stangs has resulted in dealer's lots full of 6 cylinder cars and customers waiting entire model YEARS to get the cars they ordered long ago! More GT's will roll only AFTER the Romeo engine plant gears up to make more engines, and no overtime is contemplated there - hence, no new allocations of GT's. Ford certainly has problems, and they definitely start right at the top.
As for the best Ford products coming from Europe, this is a bit of a stretch - but its probably inevitable that the design functions of Ford will follow its new, self-annointed "Chief Creative Officer" to his digs in Soho. As I said, the coup has been completed, and the euros are in charge. This same transormation happened 10 years ago at GM and we can all see where it has gotten them...
Don't get me wrong - I am emphatically blaming GM's management for their situation - not the unions, not the middle managers and engineers, and not the workers on the line. Take away their problems with work rules, labor costs and contract disputes, and GM is still sitting on inventories of ugly, poorly designed vehicles. Management is the problem. Do away with the unions tomorrow, and all you do is give the same bad management decisions a little more time to repeat endlessly the same mistakes.
As for the source of the best designs, the Japanese thoughtfully moved some design functions to the US quite a while back, and they don't seem to be suffering from it. Chrysler at one time was building a design powerhouse here, until it was demoted for a while by the boys in der Deutchland. Now they've leavened the group with some of their own (probably inevitable), and the new ideas are once again flowing from the mixed US/German teams in Detroit. Like 'em or not, the new Chrysler styles are unique and look to be successful. I haven't decided whether I like the new Magnum or not - I HAVE decided that I DO like the 300's - and who can miss those monster trucks they make? Not boring, not generic, and probably not failures.
As for Honda's problems with Hyundai competition, I'm more focused on the possibility that the US will lose another 50,000 auto manufacturer jobs to foreign competition. Someone needs to kick some management butt up in Detroit - and who better to do it than a bunch of stang drivers with attitude?
The new Mustang has shown the way - build cars Americans want to buy, drive and look at. Or you can build generic household appliances on wheels, and lose your jobs.
Seems like an easy choice to me.
tripleblack
Actually, Ford Jr.'s salary was going to the Ford Foundation. Now it's going back into the company.
The Coletti thing was very odd.
But having driven both the Mazda3 and the Volvo S40 AWD, I'm amazed! Jag has some real problems, but the Aston Martins and the Rover Group seem to be doing well in sales.
Nearly all of the successful Japanese Designs, and even Korea's designs come from their American Design Studios. THe 427 Concept was far and away a better design than the 10 year old Audi Design that is the Ford 500/Freestyle. What the heck were they thinking?! I still don't understand the reasoning for Volvo to get the SHO v8, while the 500 gets a tired 3.0L that was barely adequate for the underpowered Mercury Cougar, that weighed 1000 lbs LESS!
__________________
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
Actually, Ford Jr.'s salary was going to the Ford Foundation. Now it's going back into the company.
The Coletti thing was very odd.
But having driven both the Mazda3 and the Volvo S40 AWD, I'm amazed! Jag has some real problems, but the Aston Martins and the Rover Group seem to be doing well in sales.
Nearly all of the successful Japanese Designs, and even Korea's designs come from their American Design Studios. THe 427 Concept was far and away a better design than the 10 year old Audi Design that is the Ford 500/Freestyle. What the heck were they thinking?! I still don't understand the reasoning for Volvo to get the SHO v8, while the 500 gets a tired 3.0L that was barely adequate for the underpowered Mercury Cougar, that weighed 1000 lbs LESS!
My problems with how the Ford Foundation spent his salary would REALLY bore the listeners here in the Forum!
Coletti was the date who took them to the prom - and then dumped for the quarterback. No class, best case.
I totally agree on the Mazdas (they've somehow managed to make EVERY car in their lineup attractive and edgey, with good handling and decent power - though their small trucks and suv's suck just like the Ford versions) - I've driven the 3, and it noway resembles the econoboxes of old. The Volvo is what the new Ford 500 should and could have been (they already share a great deal). Sad, really. Shows just what I mean by management decisions - what moron picked that match-up for an AMERICAN sedan?
Aston Martin - never driven one, but would love to have one, of course. An Icon. Rover has managed to ease up-market with remarkable success - the buzz has the new Rover as the pick of any number of starlets and the more sophisticated social set. A wonderful market, and an amazingly stable one.
Jaguar is still hamstrung with unimaginative designs (since the non-success of the X-type), and the photos I've seen of the XK8 are outright disappointing. How anyone can take an opportunity to design an inheritor to the XKE and come up with THAT is beyond me!
Don't think so. GM management might be looking for a white knight (Wagonner's ass is at ground zero - I think he's toast, regardless), but Toyota's too smart to bite. The headaches for them would be enormous, and a market back-lash would be costly.
Japanese companies aren't buying ruined American companies anymore. They lost billions doing this in the 80's and early 90's, and they're cautious now.
REALLY? No BS? Is that a company stated fact? Why doesn't anyone tell me these things.....
__________________
I Hate GM, deal with it.
One shot, One Kill! Don't waste ammo, it's pricey!
2005 GT Screaming Yellow: SLP Loudmouths
Ibanez guitars, S&W revolvers, Glock Semi's
Republican write in Presidential Candidate 2012
