I really don't believe the idea of us "losing" sits well or should sit well for our military guys. They've sacrificed to much to have secular politicians, the people that buy into it, raise the failure flag. Saying the President failed means they failed. Afterall, they are carrying out his orders. Not fair to them when losing isn't the case.
This is another brutally honest response.
Somehow, you think it's a failure for the military if the President's policy failed.
The Administration clearly failed, and the Administration controls the military, but it is NOT the military.
If I'm working on a car, and my boss tell me to not lubricate the cam, and following his orders I don't and the engine siezes, I didn't fail -the boss did.
The Joint Chiefs told Runsfeld he need 400,000 men to achieve the goal of securing Iraq.
That was the lubrication.
Rumsfeld forced them out and found people who would do it with 150,000.
That's not a failure of the military, that's a failure of the Civilian leadership.
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Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
lovcom, you say we won the hearts and minds of the Germans and Japs? lol We bombed them into the dirt and totally defeated their armies, we reduced their citys to rubble, they were starving! You really need to take a course in history, Maybe you can go to Harvard or Yale with your connections.lol.
No one ever said Saddam had nukes, did he want them, hell yes he did!(I want one!)
And the $64,000 question that no leftie can answer is, if Bush knew that there were no WMD's (God I hate that stupid civilian phrase) Why were there teams looking for and trying to find these weapons if he knew there were none and was going to be caught in a lie?? Why did the Clinton Admin. say and push for the same thing in 97'&98'??
We are not bogged down in Iraq, the only ones bogged down are the Islamo fascist pigs who are dying for their pig god.
As 95MGTS said, name a battle large or small that we lost.
You and KS can make all the inane comments you want but remember one thing , these Fascist will kill you no matter your hatred for Bush or anyone else, you are an American and an Infedel, You and KS are referred to as "useful idiots" by the enimies of this country.
Now I need to get back to work because my taxes are fixing to go thru the f-ing roof!
And if we did to Germany and Japan what the Europeans did to the Germans after WWI we'd still be fighting over there.
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Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
Exactly. We didn't win hearts and minds, we kicked the ever loving **** out of them. They had no choice but to allow us to come in and take over. The only other option was death (though I'm sure many a Japanese were willing to die in the name of the Emperor).
Sorry, but the Iraqis were not at war with us. They were never a threat to us.
1) they attacked Kuwait -not us. The first Gulf War was to protect the Kuwaiti Royal Family.
2) Al Quaeda attacked us, not Iraq. Al Quaeda is still in Afghanistan. The one Al Quaeda camp was located in Kurdish Northern Iraq, out of Hussiens reach, and within ours.
3) Hussein was disarmed, had no Air Force, no Navy, no real army, except the Republican Guard. The regular army was ill-trained and had weapons in disrepair.
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We beat the Germans and the Japanese, but then you seem to forget the Marshall Plan.
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Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
When you have them by their balls, their hearts and minds will follow!!
KS, we didnt do to the Germans and the Japs what was done after WW1, we set up the Marshall plan,remember? That is why they are allies now.
It is funny how you libs have totally forgotten about the 1st Gulf war and the ceasefire agreements that the Iraqi's signed with your beloved UN and the violated everyone of them and slaughterd the Shiea's in the south 4 months later while shooting at coalition aircraft enforcing your beloved UN no fly zones.
Oh by the way,Polosi and Murtha just said a few mineuts ago that they have no plan for Iraq or a withdrawl. But are open to suggestions. What a bunch of suckers!
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06' GT Tungsten gray,seq. turn sigs. no spoiler.
XM,
An armed man is called a citizen.A disarmed man is called a subject.
1) When you have them by their balls, their hearts and minds will follow!!
2) KS, we didnt do to the Germans and the Japs what was done after WW1, we set up the Marshall plan,remember? That is why they are allies now.
3) It is funny how you libs have totally forgotten about the 1st Gulf war and the ceasefire agreements that the Iraqi's signed with your beloved UN and the violated everyone of them and slaughterd the Shiea's in the south 4 months later while shooting at coalition aircraft enforcing your beloved UN no fly zones.
Oh by the way,Polosi and Murtha just said a few mineuts ago that they have no plan for Iraq or a withdrawl. But are open to suggestions. What a bunch of suckers!
1) Bend over and drop your drawers. I'll grab you by the balls, and we'll see what happens if I let go.
2) that was my point. We put those countries to work rebuilding their own countries. We didn't send a bunch of war profiteers to Germany and Japan to rebuild those countries paid by no-bid contracts to cronies while the populations were penniless and unemployed. And we didn't have to devote military resources to protect those contractors.
The soldiers were there to secure the country.
3) the shia's rebelled (remember GHW Bush encouraged them to tebel?). Saddam put down the insurrection. Now we gave the country to the Shia's and the Sunnis are rebelling. We're putting down the insurrection of the Sunnis, while also fighting the ascendancy of Al Sadr.
5) Murtha has already published his plan. There are SEVERAL plans, and they're going to debate them. That's what Congress does.
No matter what plan they push, they are powerless to enact them as Bush is CiC. All they can do is create a plan and encourage the American People to push Bush.
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Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
Somehow, you think it's a failure for the military if the President's policy failed.
The Administration clearly failed, and the Administration controls the military, but it is NOT the military.
If I'm working on a car, and my boss tell me to not lubricate the cam, and following his orders I don't and the engine siezes, I didn't fail -the boss did.
The Joint Chiefs told Runsfeld he need 400,000 men to achieve the goal of securing Iraq.
That was the lubrication.
Rumsfeld forced them out and found people who would do it with 150,000.
That's not a failure of the military, that's a failure of the Civilian leadership.
Not all folks in the JCS told Rummy that. The idea today is still smaller, more efficient and effective forces. The old shcool thought, and maybe not so out of date, is large forces to effectively control the occupation zone. Then again, what does every 2-star ADM or GEN want..............3 Stars and going along with what your boss says, might get them what the want. I don't know this for sure but coming from 14 years of military experience, it might just be the case. Don't rock the boat and things go your way. Unfortunetly, it effects our guys to the lowest level, boots on the ground.
Yet still calling our military victory and occupation a failure, is very much a failure to those on the ground, in the service, sacrificing. There needs to be a distinct difference and all to often there is not. Yet even with 150K troops, the Iraqi bad guys and out of country terrorists aren't going to militarly force us out. What will force us out is like what George Washington did to the British during the Revolutionary War and his war of Posts then outlasting the Brits to do harm at home.
Sorry, but the Iraqis were not at war with us. They were never a threat to us.
1) they attacked Kuwait -not us. The first Gulf War was to protect the Kuwaiti Royal Family.
2) Al Quaeda attacked us, not Iraq. Al Quaeda is still in Afghanistan. The one Al Quaeda camp was located in Kurdish Northern Iraq, out of Hussiens reach, and within ours.
3) Hussein was disarmed, had no Air Force, no Navy, no real army, except the Republican Guard. The regular army was ill-trained and had weapons in disrepair.
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We beat the Germans and the Japanese, but then you seem to forget the Marshall Plan.
It doesn't matter that the Iraqi's attacked Kuwait, they asked for our help and thus began our long march to Bagdad in 03. From Gulf War I, to ONW and OSW, and OIF, we are there and can't change that. We have to finish what we have to do. That is the problem. We had a plan as to what we were going to do in the initial war, then I assume it fell apart........meaning no plan. The end game of WWII just didn't happen. The ultimate surrender was the goal and campaigns were directed towards that end. That's the problem today, the end game has been shaky and not so defined.
By the way, the Japanese and German folks were not a threat to us as well....only their military and there leaders. The Germans never attacked us either, well at least a large scale attack. Their U-boats had been wrecking havoc with us prior to the start of the war. Kind of like, but on much smaller scale, ONW and OSW, the air war with Iraq that most folks don't know about or simply don't care about.
We are still fighting in Afghanistan. I have a friend over there right now and just because the media isn't reporting it, doesn't mean it isn't happening. Unfortunetly, it is a country that is still very dangerous with Al Queada coming from Pakistan......our paid for ally.
Sadam Hussein did have an Air Force, an army and even a navy right up to the start of the war. Their aircraft still flew missions prior to the start but very wisely decided to stay out of it when the war began. Same with their navy. Obviously their forces were not what they once were but they did put up some resistence in the beginning. Most folks we face in combat today are not going to beat us. They might have the numbers on paper but it takes more than that. It takes effective training, combat simulation, more training, excercises, war college, etc. Most countries don't have the money to do what we do. Back before WWII, back in 1932, our Navy had fought the battles of WWII with war plan orange. We fought the Japanese in simulated battles, preparing for the day if and when it would come. The Japanese didn't do the same and after it cost them in the end. We still do the same thing today while countries like Iraq, Iran, N. Korea have or had impressive arsenals, their ability to deploy them effectively is severly limited.
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There are only three things the copilot should ever say:
1. Nice landing, Sir.
2. I'll buy the first round.
3. I'll take the ugly one.
Not all folks in the JCS told Rummy that. The idea today is still smaller, more efficient and effective forces. The old shcool thought, and maybe not so out of date, is large forces to effectively control the occupation zone. Then again, what does every 2-star ADM or GEN want..............3 Stars and going along with what your boss says, might get them what the want. I don't know this for sure but coming from 14 years of military experience, it might just be the case. Don't rock the boat and things go your way. Unfortunetly, it effects our guys to the lowest level, boots on the ground.
Yet still calling our military victory and occupation a failure, is very much a failure to those on the ground, in the service, sacrificing. There needs to be a distinct difference and all to often there is not. Yet even with 150K troops, the Iraqi bad guys and out of country terrorists aren't going to militarly force us out. What will force us out is like what George Washington did to the British during the Revolutionary War and his war of Posts then outlasting the Brits to do harm at home.
Occupation is a b****,
It's why the sun never sets on a country that doesn't celebrate Independence from Britain.
As I recall there WAS a plan to hold local, regional and NAtional elections that the FIRST General in charge of Iraq was running, till they abruptly pulled him out and placed Bremer and his bunch IN -where he was trying to put Chalabi in charge of the country.
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Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
One official who was deeply involved in the pre-war planning effort - and was critical of it - initially agreed but then declined to cooperate after expressing concern that the Justice Department might pursue a reporter's telephone records in an effort to hunt down critics of the administration's policies.
"The possibility of the United States winning the war and losing the peace in Iraq is real and serious," warned an Army War College report that was completed in February 2003, a month before the invasion. Without an "overwhelming" effort to prepare for the U.S. occupation of Iraq, the report warned: "The United States may find itself in a radically different world over the next few years, a world in which the threat of Saddam Hussein seems like a pale shadow of new problems of America's own making."
The Pentagon's Defense Intelligence Agency was particularly aggressive in its forecasts, officials said. One briefing occurred in January 2003. Another, in April 2003, weeks after the war began, discussed Saddam's plans for attacking U.S. forces after his troops had been defeated on the battlefield.
Similar warnings came from the Pentagon's Joint Staff, the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research, and the CIA's National Intelligence Council. The council produced reports in January 2003 titled "Principal Challenges in Post-Saddam Iraq" and "Regional Consequences of Regime Change in Iraq."
Unlike the 1991 Persian Gulf War, in which Iraqi troops were trying to maintain their grip on Kuwait, "they are now defending their country," said a senior defense official, summarizing the Joint Staff's warnings. "You are going to get serious resistance. This idea that everyone will join you is baloney. But it was dismissed."
"Casey was screaming, 'Where is our Phase 4 plan?' " the official said. It never arrived. Casey is now the commander of U.S.-led coalition forces in Iraq.
On March 17, 2003, two days before the war began, ground force commanders asked the Army War College for a copy of the handbook that had governed the U.S. occupation of postwar Germany, which began in 1945.
Rumsfeld and his aides made it clear what would happen to generals who bucked them. When, under persistent congressional questioning in February 2003, the Army chief of staff, Gen. Eric K. Shinseki, said he thought several hundred thousand U.S. troops would be needed to secure Iraq, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz publicly called his estimate "wildly off the mark." Then Rumsfeld's office leaked word of Shinseki's replacement 15 months before Shinseki was due to retire, both embarrassing and neutralizing the Army's top officer. "Rumsfeld just beat up on the military," said the senior intelligence official. "And so they just shut up and did what they were told."
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Here's what the Iraqis believe, and so long as they believe it, there will be no solution.
Woe to him who builds his palace by unrighteousness,his upper rooms by injustice,making his countrymen work for nothing...Does it make you a king to have more and more cedar?Did not your father have food and drink?He did what was right and just,so all went well with him. He defended the cause of the poor and needy,and so all went well...But your eyes and your heart are set only on dishonest gain,on shedding innocent blood and on oppression and extortion. Jer 22:13, 15-17
WHITELITNIN, And who said Bush went to Harvard? I thought he got C average grades out at Yale, not Harvard. And NO he did not get an MBA...he got an undergraduate degree in History.
Do your research. He has an MBA from Harvard and also a bachelor of arts degree from Yale.
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1988 Supercharged 'Vert - SOLD!!!
1970 F100 - 10 bolt posi Rear end, Fuel Injected 302, Traction Bars, EQ shorties, Bed Cover, Custom Interior with power leather seats- custom dash/console, AOD w/ B&M shifter, Tubbed w/ 15x10s rear and 15x7s up front, no emissions junk and it's LEGAL!!!
"Only two defining forces have ever offerred to die for you: Je$us Christ and the American G.I." - Author Unknown
KS, unlike your European friends, an American does not let his enemies grab him by the balls.
You are right about one thing tho, congress can make all the plans they want but the Prez is still CinC. Unless they decide to cut funding to the troops. Then they would be thrown out of office by the people before their 2 year stint is up.
Now I see where the Dems have dug up the corpse of McGovern.lol to help them, yeah he was a real winner, your probably to young to remember.
As far as pulling out of Iraq, we pull out they come here and Binladen will be right , America has a glass jaw.
Maybe a mushroom cloud over a American city will be convincing.
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06' GT Tungsten gray,seq. turn sigs. no spoiler.
XM,
An armed man is called a citizen.A disarmed man is called a subject.
Why were there teams looking for and trying to find these weapons if he knew there were none and was going to be caught in a lie?? Why did the Clinton Admin. say and push for the same thing in 97'&98'??
