[Brew]

How is a guy suppose to make up his mind??!!

[JUSTNLX]

Originally posted by A.J.
[b] But a supercharger has far less maintenance, and is more reliable. /B]

What maintenance on a turbo? You run an oil line, a water line in some cases and your done the only thing I can think of is to clean the air filter. No broken or worn belts to replace, no oil to change in the gearbox. Reliable, ok, Volvo, Porsche, SVO Mustang all have turbos and have gone well over 100k miles without a turbo failure. What about the countless big rigs with turbos hauling their loads over 200-300k miles.

Originally posted by A.J.
but the turbo cars have what seem to be endless problems.

I drove my twin turbo 91 LX 90 miles a day to and from work, for a year or so, no problems. The only problem I had was bolting the turbos on a motor with 112k miles on it and blew a gasket. I would have done the same thing with a S/C

Originally posted by A.J.
Granted the blowers will produce less hp, but the will not have boost creep (blows up engines) as much heat problems, and the exhaust plumbing remains straightforward. You put a pulley designed for a certain level of boost and forget it. With a turbo you have to worry about wastegates, and the possibility of a stuck wastegate (happens allot) major heat issues, and very complex intake manifold routing.

S/C can produce the same hp ratings as a turbo. It just takes more boost. The thing is a turbo will produce it faster while using less hp to do it. Boost creep can be controlled with a blow-off valve. And you better put one on a S/C or you will be replacing it after you bend the impeller blades. I don’t worry about my wastegates. I set them at “a certain level of boost and forget it” Oh and I don’t have to buy another pulley to set it at a different level. I’ve never had a wastegate stick on me. Heat, heat is your friend with a turbo. If you’re worried about under hood heat, not a problem, wrap the exhaust or ceramics coat it. You will only make a turbo more efficient! The intake plumbing is no different than a S/C. It comes from the compressor to the intercooler then the intake. It’s not complex. And as far as exhaust goes, there is no great secrets here ether. Ok one; do not use chamber type mufflers ( Flowmaster for example)

Originally posted by Ron
You want a ton of HP for racing go for the turbo, you want HP and a streetable car go for the blower..........

Sorry Ron, I have to agree with Nic. Like all the S/C guys say “S/C build boost right from idle” so you are almost always under boost. My turbos are just freewheeling running down the road. I have actually gotten better fuel economy from them. 27mpg @ 70-75mph

Oh Ron, Incon’s kit is Calif. Legal!

Originally posted by Brew
How is a guy suppose to make up his mind??!!

Bruce, it’s down to personal preference. Allot of people really don’t understand turbos. If you’re just after some good power with your 2002, then a Supercharger may be the ticket. Most of the turbo kits are pretty $$$$ for the 4.6L and are not emissions legal

[JUSTNLX]

Wow this just kind of died.

Anyway I just wanted to let people know that I am not against S/C. It is quite the opposite. I love the sound and not to mention the power. I just wanted something different. I was kind of tired of seeing every other Mustang with a S/C. That is why I went to Incon's twin turbo system.

For those of you who have not had a ride or driven a turbo 5.0, well let me tell you !!!!! That just kind off sums it up! I highly recommend it. And if by chance I meet any of you out there, I would be more than glad to give you a ride Oh don't worry, I'll throw a box of Depends in the back seat for ya

[Fast1]

I have to agree w/ the turbo hereeven though i'm a bottle babyfuture plans call for a turbo close friend of mine "Total Performance" is a cartech dealer.I"m going to spray a 75 shot through it 2 just to coll the inlet temp down alittle and shoot for around 15 psi

Boost is good

Auto trans/bild boost while you wait/ at the line or the green light. Stock you can get 6# off the brake. Minor brake mods 10-12 and up.

Originally posted by Steven
I will have to go along with Nic on the turbo argument. Turbos are far more superior than superchargers. Look what comes on talons from the factory a TURBO, so if turbos are so bad why would a car company put them on their cars. I have never seen a factory car with a Centrifugal Supercharger have you spyder?

Cobra is coming with the supercharger!!

For me it has to be the supercharger because I want the power to be there as I floor it, not a wiat a sec and then turbo spools up and then it goes! Turbo does have the advantage on the top-end! but how many times do you actually go over 150??

[JUSTNLX]

I don't agree.

I pulled a 1.7 60ft time with 8psi boost (again thats full boost by 2500rpm) with my turbos. Thats all bottom end, and that was with a blown head gasket.

Top end is where the turbo and S/C almost become equal. Almost that is. you still have to turn that belt.

Brandon finally finished up on his Vortech to Cartech single turbo swap and gave me a ride the other night. He's only running 9 lbs with the turbo where he was running 12 lbs with Vortech and down low there's no comparison: the turbo feels 200% stronger. The turbo is making full boost before 3000 rpm. With the Vortech, he never got into a noticeable amount of boost until 3500 and never reached 9 lbs until after 5000 rpm. If you want lowend power, the centrifugal supercharger can't compete with a well matched turbo.

Cobra is coming with the supercharger!!

Roots, not centrifugal.

The roots style on the other hand, you're going to come into full boost almost immediately, but you will be sacrificing high rpm horsepower (and no, we're not talking 150 mph here, we're talking 3000 rpm on up in every gear). They're great on a fun street car, but that's about it. If you want to make good horsepower the turbo and centrifugal are the better choice than a roots blower, with the turbo being the better choice IMO.

Hey toni i didnt mean to make anyone mad. and what you said about boost creep being remedied by a blow off valve. Well boost creep is caused by a restricted wastegate passage causing the boost level to rise to a dangerous level, And as for the turbo boosting faster, that all depends on the size of the turbo. I had a turbo car that didnt reach full boost until 4k rpm. As for maintenance, how many gaskets do you have in your system that are a pain in the rear to change. And have you ever had an exhaust leak?? By maintenance i meant that!! And with turbo's the under hood temp. can rise drasticly. A turbo essentially runs off of the exhaust gas heat, and not the sheer flow. Have you ever made a couple hard passes at night and popped the hood and looked at the turbo's, On a highly boosted car they will be glowing red hot. Also with a turbo it is almost necessary to run some sort of charge cooler because of the close proximity of the intake air and the exhaust gasses.

Dont get me wrong, i love the feel of a turbo car. But i have also been in the installers shoes, and it isnt easy, and has a couple of issues. My friend is currently building a turbo'ed 2000 ws6 trans am, and is having a multitude of problems.

For reliability most car shops will tell you that the supercharger is more reliable.

[JUSTNLX]

Hey AJ,

No problems. You didn't make anybody mad or upset. This debate goes on all the time, all is good!

I do know what boost creep is. Boost creep happens when you are flowing more exhaust than your wastegate or exhaust system can handle. That’s where proper design comes into play. If your wastegate can’t keep up, then you need a different one or possibly two. If the exhaust can’t cut it, then you need a different system. For those times when a wastegate malfunctions, and it is very rare, using a blow-off you can close the throttle plate causing the blow-off to basically vent the extra boost to atmosphere allowing you to shut down.

You are correct; it does depend on the size of the turbo where it builds boost, more specifically the size of the turbine housing. I use a 64 AR turbine housing. They allow me to be at full boost by 2500rpm. If I wanted to build boost later in the rpm range I could use say an 84AR turbine housing and have full boost around 2800-3000 rpm’s. Now I’m talking twin turbo set up. A single would be different. Matching the compressor to an engine “design” or size is very important too.

I do not have any gaskets on my turbos. They would be quickly burned up. Turbos, mine anyway, rely on machined surfaces to seal. I do use very little Permatex Gold between the surfaces and where they mate up to the heads. Yeah I’ve had an exhaust leak, but in the exhaust system it’s self. Exhaust leaks in a turbo set up kills boost, but a leak in any exhaust system kills horsepower.

Have you ever seen what happens to regular headers when your hard on an engine? I have had my son’s (Jesse, aka Stalkerstang) bright red before. And cast iron manifolds do the same thing. To take care of under hood heat, and I’ve said this before, just wrap the system or ceramic coat it. You will only make the turbo more efficient!

On any boosted system, S/C or turbo, an intercooler is always a good idea.

I still don’t agree with the reliability issue.

[GT Dan]

One of the weak links on many turbos has been the bearings. Many turbos are cooled with the oil that feeds them. I am not up to speed on the Icon set up, but I know for a fact that the Saab's, Dodge Colt, SVO's, Turbo T-birds, even the Turbo RX-7's....that if you run or race the car hard and then shut it down.....the bearings in the turbo get hot and can become damaged. If the driver allows the auto to idle for a few minutes after running it hard, the oil will cool the bearings and prevent them from seizing. The major auto manufacturers know this....they've had to change out the turbo's while under warranty because a waistgate malfunctioned or the bearings burned up and this is why they have moved away from the turbo trend.

The SVO factory has moved toward the roots type charger for a reason with both the Lightening truck and the new cobra. Also, Mercedes, Nissan and others have adopted the roots type blowers on some of their vehicles. These are streetable vehicles that do not require their owners to have some engineering backgrounds to keep them fine tuned. I'll have to say that I believe that turbos are more efficient, faster, etc. But, for reliability (and most of the auto industry has moved away from the turbo craze of the 80's and toward the roots chargers for many of their factory produced street driven cars) the roots charged vehicles are better.

Yes, trucks use them, but most mustangs are neither trucks nor are they diesel. And yes, they use turbos in formula one cars. Just for the record, I had a conversation with a client that has been a computer welding engineering consultant for GM for several years. He told me that one of the current formula one teams that was in the top ten folded because they felt like they could not be competitive with only a $70 million dollar budget.

I think the auto industry's opinion is that turbos are more costly and, like most of us, they are bottom line driven.

[JUSTNLX]

Originally posted by GT Dan
One of the weak links on many turbos has been the bearings. Many turbos are cooled with the oil that feeds them

That was in the past. Turbo designs are more advanced today. Oil no longer has to cool the bearing. Bearings can be water-cooled. Oil is mostly for “feeding”, lubing, the bearings. It also cleans the bearings, when you change your oil on a regular basis, and to some extent cools. Bearings are no longer the bushing type; they can be roller or needle.

Originally posted by GT Dan
if you run or race the car hard and then shut it down.....the bearings in the turbo get hot and can become damaged. If the driver allows the auto to idle for a few minutes after running it hard, the oil will cool the bearings and prevent them from seizing

Well if you run or race any car hard for that matter you shouldn’t shut down right away.
The term I believe is “choking” or “coking” the bearings, correct me if I’m wrong. What GT Dan is talking about is; when you get a turbo hot then shut it down the oil inside will bake or break down onto the bearings. Too much of this can ruin a bearing, well that it’s self won’t but it clogs the bearings and oil can’t get to them. Again newer turbo designs with water-cooling and roller bearings address this issue. You can shut down a water-cooled turbo right away. It is still a good idea to let it cool a little after being hard on an engine, but that goes for any engine

Originally posted by GT Dan
The SVO factory has moved toward the roots type charger for a reason with both the Lightening truck and the new cobra. Also, Mercedes, Nissan and others have adopted the roots type blowers on some of their vehicles. These are streetable vehicles that do not require their owners to have some engineering backgrounds to keep them fine tuned

This is just my opinion here. Manufactures follow what sells on the aftermarket. So they add a S/C in hopes that it will sell, and it does. Gotta love-um for it. I too like the idea of a S/C on a truck. I want one. Both S/C and turbo don’t need an engineering background to keep them fine tuned They both need to be maintained and tuned from time to time just like any high performance engine. Now modifying ether one you should know what your doing or find someone how does.

Originally posted by GT Dan
But, for reliability (and most of the auto industry has moved away from the turbo craze of the 80's and toward the roots chargers for many of their factory produced street driven cars) the roots charged vehicles are better.

I agree the roots type charger is a better “S/C”. I don’t agree that the auto industry has moved away from the “turbo craze”. I actually see more turbo charged cars today then back in the 80’s (Volvo, Saab, Porsche, Subaru, Toyota, etc.)

Originally posted by GT Dan
Yes, trucks use them, but most mustangs are neither trucks nor are they diesel.

You miss the point here. The issue of reliability is the point. Trucks have to be reliable. These people make their living with them. And they go thousands of miles without a failure on the turbo.

Originally posted by GT Dan
He told me that one of the current formula one teams that was in the top ten folded because they felt like they could not be competitive with only a $70 million dollar budget.

Man could I have their sponsors!!

Originally posted by GT Dan
I think the auto industry's opinion is that turbos are more costly and, like most of us, they are bottom line driven.

I think (my opinion again) it is more about the “E” word (emissions). As you know turbos work off of exhaust heat too not just pressure. Believe it or not, the exhaust gasses are actually cooler coming out of the turbo than a non-turbo car. A cat.-converter needs heat to function properly, and with the exhaust being used from and cooled by the turbo, the cat. does not get heated up to temp. Now I know there are some that don’t believe this, but look it up. I will try to find where I read this.

Cost, I paid around $4k for my Incon kit. That is about the same for a S/C kit with the same or less power level.

I’m not trying to upset anyone, and my apologies if I do or did. I still like them both. I’m just trying to put to rest the old thinking behind turbos

[Philc]

in my SVO- 325hp on a stock botton end 2.3L, over 200k miles, and ABUSED DAILY, all on the origional un-rebuilt, T3 from the factory. thats over 140hp/L. Now dont get me wrong- superchargers are fine and dandy, but for dependability, I'll take a turbo anyday. anyone have a supercharger make 18psi and last 200k miles?

I guess to all his own. I just know from my personal experience that my supercharged cars were more reliable than the turbo cars.

i have done turbo kits on anything from grand nationals to motorcycles, and i have done superchargers on almost as many different vehicles, and from my experience, the superchargers are just less of a hassle all together